Episode 14: Baseball and Sexual Violence, LA 2028, and Women’s Soccer
In Episode 14 of Burn It All Down, Lindsay Gibbs and Shireen Ahmed take over to talk about sexual violence in baseball, ruin your excitement about the Olympics coming to Los Angeles, and celebrate the latest happenings in women’s soccer.
Then, Lindsay talks with Rhiannon Walker, an Associate Editor at The Undefeated, about the rich, complicated history of black people in tennis, and the importance of the American Tennis Association, the oldest black professional sports league.
Finally, Shireen and Lindsay light up the Burn Pile and honor our BadAss Woman of the Week — but not before a slight detour that involves, well, axes.
In Episode 14 of Burn It All Down, Lindsay Gibbs and Shireen Ahmed take over to talk about Jen Ramos’s great piece for the Hardball Times on sexual violence in baseball (2:10) and the allegations against Pete Rose (8:13). Then they ruin your excitement about the Olympics coming to Los Angeles (12:37), and celebrate the latest happenings in women’s soccer (21:19), including Bri Scurry finally getting inducted into the Hall of Fame (25:41)
Then, Lindsay talks with Rhiannon Walker, an Associate Editor at The Undefeated, about the rich, complicated history of black people in tennis (28:38), and the importance of the American Tennis Association, the oldest black professional sports league.
Shireen and Lindsay return light up the Burn Pile for the abuse a Sikh referee experienced online during Chelsea’s loss to Inter Milan (52:33), and Ray Lewis’s comments about Colin Kaepernick (53:30). We then honor our BadAss Woman of the Week (55:50), Claressa Shields, before talking about what we’re looking forward to this upcoming week (58:30).
Links
Baseball Needs to Do More About Sexual Violence (Jen Mac Ramos)
Woman Testifies That She Had Sex With Pete Rose as Early as Age 14
LA has signed up but rapacious IOC is running out of conquests
Mayor Defends Decision To Bring Olympics To L.A. In Interview With Bill Simmons
Briana Scurry first black woman elected to National Soccer Hall of Fame
Black Tennis Week on The Undefeated
Ray Lewis To Colin Kaepernick: “What You Do Off The Field, Don’t Let Too Many People Know”
Sikh referee Sukhbir Singh racially abused online during Chelsea’s loss to Inter Milan
Rugby got this African-American girl into college — and is inspiring others to follow
Claressa Shields completely dominates Nikki Adler to win her first world title belts
The WNBA comes to video games in NBA Live 2018
Transcript
Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome, everyone, to this week of Burn It All Down. It might not be the feminist sports podcast you want, but it's the feminist sports podcast you need. This week it is myself, Lindsay Gibbs, sports reporter at ThinkProgress. And joining me is Shireen Ahmed, freelance sportswriter from Toronto. Hey Shireen, how are you doing?
Shireen: Hey Lindsay. I'm good, thanks.
Lindsay: It's just you and me today, steering the ship all by ourselves. You think we can make it?
Shireen: Absolutely.
Lindsay: [laughs] Okay. Great. So today we're going to be referring back to a topic that we talk about unfortunately often, which is violence against women in sports. This week we're going to be talking about it through a baseball context. Then we're going to take on the Olympics and rain on the parade that is happening in LA to celebrate their Olympic bid. And then we're going to give a quick women's soccer update, shireen's going to have us there. And then I'm going to talk with Rhiannon Walker, an associate editor at The Undefeated who has done some phenomenal work over the last week on Black tennis week. So she's really dug into the history of racism and tennis, the most important Black figures, from HBCUs to the Black press, to trailblazers like Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson in tennis. And she's looked of course all the way to Richard Williams, the coach of the Williams sisters, and the father, who this week was inducted into the American Tennis Association hall of fame. So, her work on that was phenomenal. I can't wait to sit down with her and talk through all of that. Of course we will then have the burn pile, and the badass woman of the week. So, even though there's just two of us, I think we should dig right in, because I don't think we're going to have trouble talking this week. [laughter] We never have before, Shireen.
Shireen: No.
Lindsay: So, look, let's talk about sexual violence and baseball. This week it's been in the news thanks to former Burn It All Down guest Jen Ramos, who wrote for The Hardball Times a piece about how baseball really needs to do better about handling sexual violence. I was really struck by this piece because it went through all of the examples kind of in baseball history, which goes way back of the way that sports teams and the media and the league as a whole have mishandled this information, the way it's often really buried. Shireen, what did you think about this article, and how do you feel like baseball is doing?
Shireen: Jen's piece was phenomenal. Like you said, it was published earlier this week. And admittedly, I don't know…Baseball is not my go-to sport, but I learned so much. But the way that they also wrote the piece was really incredible because in addition to, as you mentioned, citing historical examples of sexualized violence in baseball and how either the clubs would dismiss it, or the statements of the lawyers would, it would work out that way. They would be make these sort of vacuous comments. So I'm glad that they’re…You know, “this athlete's life was about to be ruined” or whatnot. Jen actually included a document too, which I thought was really, really profound and really, really important, to keep adding, to document, to keep adding instances that are probably under reported. Because they also added studies and stats to talk about false reports, because as we know, it's a very common defensive mechanism, and wrongly so, of people to say, oh, false reporting is so high. But Jen indicated and used backup. She used research and reports, academic reports as well to say this is not true. False reporting, the stats are very low, actually.
I think the whole thing was really important. And another thing that I think we've talked about on the show as well, Jen also referenced the way that this is written about. And for me, that's really important. And it's something that Jess has said, I've heard her say a bunch of times, that who actually does the writing is as important as what's being discussed. So, who is writing about rape and sexualized violence in baseball? Do they have the knowledge of using the right words and have they been through a media toolkit? Do they understand the implications of how they write about it? Like, I think this is really important generally. Jen's piece really gave me a lot to think about.
Lindsay: Yeah, I agree. She really put it in a context of the history as we said of the sport, but also of studies, like, you know, studies of how we talk about this. I just keep always going back to a few incidents that baseball had last year with Chapman and Reyes. And I was reading about Reyes this week, and just to give you a little recap, Jose Reyes, who is currently on the Mets, in late 2015 Reyes and his wife, Catherine, were fighting loudly at a hotel. Security was called. His wife told the responding officer that Reyes grabbed her off the bed and shoved her and grabbed her by the throat, and shoved her into a sliding glass balcony door. So this is of course domestic violence that we're discussing here. She was taken to the hospital. She did stay with Reyes and, like many women do, she didn't go through with pressing charges, and it seems like did not cooperate with the MLB's investigation. Reyes was suspended for 51 games last year, but he's now back. He is very celebrated by the Mets organization and by baseball fans.
And I came across this article because I haven't been following the Mets super closely this year. But I came across this article by RJ Anderson on CBS Sports about Reyes. And I just want to read this because keep in mind his backstory that I just told you. It said, “Reyes has been by far the worst hitter among Mets regulars, yet he second on the team in plate appearances. In fact, you can make the case that Reyes has been one of the worst players in baseball. The Mets, however, are showing more loyalty to arguably the worst player in baseball than they are to just about anyone else in their clubhouse.” [laughs] So, all of this is happening after he was suspended for domestic violence, after he showed pretty much no remorse for this, and after he was accepted back in open and loving arms, and it seems like he's not even having the talent really back up, you know, or excuse – not that there ever is any excuse, but you often hear that, you know, they'll make exceptions for a certain level of talent. But it sounds like that's not even the case here, and it's frustrating.
Shireen: Well, definitely, and I think it's just really important what Jen said towards the end of the piece, that the MLB actually has a domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse policy, but the penalty or the suspension for performance enhancing drugs or being implicated or involved in using them is more than domestic violence, sexual assault or child abuse. Like, I find that staggering and unbelievably unjust. The penalty you'll get for doping up is more than if you violate another human being.
Lindsay: For one, you're hurting the sanctity of the game, but for the other, you're just hurting women. So, you know, it really makes sense when you think about it, Shireen, it really, really does make sense.
Shireen: How naive of me. [laughter]
Lindsay: What are you thinking? Come on, priorities. So, also this week, our good friend Pete Rose was back in the news. Pete of course is a baseball legend, but he has pretty much been ostracized from the sport – except for the commentating he does on it and the money that he makes off of autographs – because of his betting on the sport and a few other fun things that that he's had. But anyways, he's been suing for defamation. So he's got this lawsuit, a defamation lawsuit. And in this, he's actually trying to fight against the fact that someone made claims that he had sex with underage girls – excuse me, raped underage girls, because you cannot have sex with underage girls. So all this stuff is coming out, this defamation stuff this week. And this is coming at the same time where the Phillies are supposed to be honoring Rose at one of their events for legends. So that was supposed to happen later this month.
What happens is it comes out that he's been accused by a Jane Doe of carrying on a sexual relationship with her when she was 14 and 15. And his defense is that she was already 16 when the relationship was going on so this wasn't really a big deal. Now this happened in the 70s, but Rose at the time was in his mid thirties, married with two children, and he was one of the most popular and famous players in baseball at the time this relationship was going on. And his entire defense is that she wasn't 15, she was 16, which is the age of consent, I think, in the state they're talking about. Shireen, can we barf?
Shireen: Totally. It’s...Ugh. And the interesting thing is, that you said, he's a celebrated commentator. So even if he's not a player anymore or on that scene, he's completely immersed in the culture. Like, the power dynamics in this are just staggering to me. I don't even know what to say. Like, I'm just disgusted completely. And the whole argument of, oh no, no, no, no, she was 16 and a day, not 15. And the funny thing is, is that...Not funny, the horrible thing rather, is that in the legal system this actually really makes a difference, like that one day or adding that one and insisting I thought she was 16 or I thought she was 17. Like, in terms of the trauma that these young women experience, it's always sort of overlooked and everyone looks to the athletes or the celebrity to drum up this ridiculous defense. And to be really honest with you, I think very often, like, I'll think about his victim, like the survivors and how they're coping and how other survivors are coping. And this is something else Jen mentioned in her piece, about what it does to fans of the game who are survivors.
Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. To see them still revered in this way. And just, look, it's really sickening because this isn't a case of this is a 17 year old sleeping with a 16 year old. You know what I mean? The power imbalance, the age and balance was extreme, that there's no way that that relationship could be going on without it being a form of abuse. You know, so like, I don't really care about the exact age deadline we're dealing with here. But the Phillies did the right thing and uninvited Rose to their ceremony this month. I actually refuse to give them credit for that. That's the bare minimum you can do. I had a funny discussion with my editor this week where I was like, should I cover this? And I was like, I just refuse that it's noteworthy for them to drop him for this reason. Like, that can't be like something we’re like, oh wow! Look at this. [laughs] Like, I just can't do it.
Shireen: With regards to this topic, like, basic human decency. The bar is so low that, you know, let's acknowledge them for not being, you know, proponents of super violence and misogyny. Like, let's give them a round of applause. I agree with you completely.
Lindsay: Yeah. Especially when this defamation stuff came out now, the specifics…But this case has been ongoing, you know? So, it's not like this is out of nowhere. All right. Let's move on to the Olympics. Shireen, I love the Olympics. I'm sure you love the Olympics. It is a great platform for female athletes in particular. And I must say also, it is not charity. The Olympics has massively benefited from showcasing female athletes and their stories, because guess what? People actually like female athletes when you give them attention and showcase their sports properly. But anyways, this week it was announced that the deal seems to be official. The vote comes in September from the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, but the behind the scenes deals have been done. And the Olympics will be in Paris in 2024 and Los Angeles in 2028. Now, as we are both in North America, the Los Angeles bid has been getting the most attention. I know at least here, I don't know about in Canada, Shireen. But it's been talked about the most.
There's been a lot of excitement, a lot of bragging about how Los Angeles, unlike the Sochis and the Rios, like, Los Angeles was going to do this right. Like, Los Angeles is immune to any of the bad things that come along with the Olympics. I am having a hard time buying it, as are many people. I've been discussing some of the stuff with the NOlympics campaign, which is, in case you can't decipher that, no to the Olympics, and against the Olympics in LA. And pointing out that, look, this is a thing that hurts marginalized communities in the cities. And there's really no way around that at this point. The amount of construction that happens in areas that are predominantly minority areas and poor areas. So you have displacement of people.
You then have the federal government right now would take over the security for the Games. So that means you're going to have like ICE working in all the LAPD offices and basically taking over security for the Olympics. And while, yes, this is 11 years out and so hopefully, although who knows what's going to happen to our societal norms, hopefully Donald Trump will be out of office there by then. You don't know how early they're gonna allow this to happen or what the lasting ramifications of such a partnership will be, but it certainly won't be positive for immigrant and minority communities in Los Angeles. And it's just bad! [laughs] I don't know how else to put it. I don't know how to do this, to have a place that holds an event that I think is so important, like the Olympics, but also that doesn't hurt sometimes irreparably marginalized communities in the process.
Shireen: Well, absolutely. I think we talked about this on a previous episode about how, like, I, for one, struggle with supporting a major event like the Olympics that's like super high in levels of capitalism and amplifies things that I don't believe in, there's heightened militarization of spaces, there's gentrification of neighborhoods. We've seen this in London. We saw it in Vancouver with the Winter Olympics. We've seen this happen, and in communities that are supposed to, you know, espouse some type of understanding of, you know, betterment of our own societies. And I do really struggle with this because there's also a place that I can watch like women's air rifle or kayaking, or, you know, celebrating sports that don't get that attention and women have these opportunities. So, we have talked about this.
But that being said, something that I really noticed that when you were talking about LA, there's a lot of discussion about LA getting attention and discussion within media and sports circles. There's also been pushback. Like, I know that for a fact, Boston recently really, really pushed back, and they didn't even put forward their bid because the response in Boston from the no to the Olympics was super high. And because of social media and campaigning, that voice was really strong. Boston's like, we don't want this. And I know that Boston's problematic for so many reasons. We talked about that on the show as well. But in terms of this, the activism and the folks there that really were like, we don't want this in our communities. It's a burden to municipal taxpayers. It's a burden to the community. Big corporations come and they make money off this. Like you said, LA is a place that thrives on diversity, and ICE being there is horrific for so many people.
I just don't think the good outweighs the bad in this situation. And I hope that those who are in LA, and I've talked about this, I mean, I think we were mentioning Robert Silverman’s piece about that Bill Simmons ad with the mayor and how sort of empty it was and just kept talking about, oh, this is going to be great for the city, this is going to be great for the city. Well, there's a lot of people that are really, really concerned. And NOlympics actually did a poll and it was embedded into Robert's piece, but 69% are like, let's just forget it. [laughs] Forget the Olympics in LA. And this also takes us to another topic. Like, how many cities are actually bidding for the Olympics now?
Lindsay: Not many. I mean, like you said, the campaigns to get these to stop…We’ve seen the campaigns successful in places like Boston and in cities all over the world because, look, there's no overlooking how damaging the Olympics are. Rio is an extreme example, but it's also a realistic and undeniable example of how damaging the Olympics are in the long term. And I think whenever…I love the Olympics, but we don't need the Olympics. People need housing and food and to feel safe in their communities, right? Like, those are basic needs. And if we are usurping those for sports purposes, then we are doing things wrong, and that's how I feel. And one more note on this mayor and in this interview with Bill Simmons and this thing – so much of this has been a press super show. And I think a lot of it is…I mean, you have the Casey Wasserman who's involved with this, who was a sports agent extreme. So he gets the athletes in on this, who would of course love it to just be in the Olympics. It's a huge, big brand thing, right? For, you know, American athletes, that the Olympics are here. It's good for the brand.
And then you have the mayor who has said multiple times – Mayor Garcetti – that he dreamed of bringing the Olympics back to Los Angeles since he was like 11 years old. Like, it really seems like when you're reading this, like the main reason he became mayor was for this campaign. [Shireen laughs] Like, I'm not even exaggerating, it's ridiculous. And it's so…I mean, I've never heard PR spin like this extreme for an Olympic Games where they're just putting it above all else. And look, they're smooth talkers. I heard an interview with him a few years ago, or maybe last year, on a Bill Simmons podcast. I don't know if it was the main Bill Simmons podcast, but it was…Anyways, I heard an interview with him then, and I was like, oh yeah, Olympics in LA. That sounds great. Of course then I started looking into it and realized like, no, that's not true at all. Any last words on this before we move on to women's soccer?
Shireen: Well, I think there's something to be said about this whole conundrum of, we want to support women's sports, but does it have to be, you know, via the Olympics? Like, does that have to be the vehicle? And why are we even in this position that we have to support something? There must be a viable way to amplify women's sports and support and develop and, you know, elevate those games without it being in such a problematic setting in this way. Like, we have to come to a resolution. I have no idea what that is, but you know, just sort of…I'm thinking about that a lot. I really hope that those who are in LA that are pushing towards that, they have, like you said, they have over a decade to sort of work at it and make sure, and hopefully the political rhetoric at the time won't be as toxic as it is now.
Lindsay: We've had the Euros, we've had the Tournament of Nations, and we have an exciting hall of fame announcement in women's soccer. Shireen, you're much more of a women's soccer expert than I am, although I am a wannabe women's soccer expert. Just take us through this and please mention how awesome Megan Rapinoe is. Take it away. [laughs]
Shireen: Oh, thank you, Linz. Happy to talk about Rapinoe. Before I talk about Rapinoe, I do have to mention, kudos to the Matildas, the Australian women's national team who won the Tournament of Nations. They also beat the United States, which they've never done before in their football history. So I think that's really important. The game that you're referring to about Megan Rapinoe – and I love me some Pinoe – was the US was playing Brazil and were actually down in the first half. And with 85 minutes left in the match they came back and ended up winning 4-3. This was quite late at night and I think I was heading to bed, but I was watching my Twitter feed and trying to balance the Tournament of Nations while the Euros were happening, the women's Euros. So there's just a lot of women's soccer, which I love. So, it was a pretty thrilling game.
And there's all these gifs of Megan Rapinoe, who is recovering from a knee injury. She actually hadn't scored for the US women's national team since 2015. So like, since the last World Cup, so this is a really big deal. And her recovery has been sensational. She's one of, if not the NWSL's top scorers with over 12 goals, I believe, I think she's at, 12 goals, which is incredible. And we love her so much. We talked about her and Sue Bird. We just love them. So, I'm just so happy to see her, because for me, she's probably one of the most phenomenal playmakers I've ever seen in women's soccer. I absolutely love her. And you know I'm a diehard Canadian women's team fan, but I love, love watching her.
Lindsay: She crosses boundaries. So wait, so what happened? So, Australia won the Tournament of Nations, congratulations. They
Shireen: Yes, they beat Brazil, so they ended up winning. The Matildas won 6-1 against Brazil. So it was a very clear indication of who was more powerful there.
Lindsay: So, close match, close match. [laughter] All right. So what's happening with the Euros? Explain that to me. [laughs]
Shireen: So, Euros is really exciting. In fact, after we're done recording, the finals…And I’m following Twitter, I'm totally, totally paying attention to the recording right now, but I'm also watching a bit of what's happening. The Netherlands is hosting the women's Euros, and the Netherlands for the first time are actually going to the finals against Denmark. And that will be at 17:00 central European time, which is 11 eastern. So that's today, like actually in an hour. And I think that already the reporting...There’s over 10,000 people in the streets in the orange parade area, the fan zone, and this is incredible. These are two teams that have actually never won the Euros before. So today there'll be a new Euros champ. And this is a tournament that has predominantly been dominated by teams like Germany and France.
And for me, this is exciting – not exciting to see France lose out, because I love them, but just to see the development of the women's game and how powerful it is. And this is really important when you have teams that you wouldn't necessarily consider strongholds. You know, just coming up…And Denmark is one of my personal faves, not only because of Nadia Nadim, who has previously been mentioned on our show as an honorable mention for badass woman of the week. It's the passion for the game, and in places where women's football is not as heightened as the men’s, like Denmark, for example. You know, something like that. The Netherlands has a very strong history of football, undoubtedly. They really do. But to see the women's game getting so much attention and getting so much love is really uplifting. It's really, really exciting, actually.
Lindsay: Love it!
Shireen: So, that's fun. It's so exciting. So, one last thing that I wanted to throw in here when we're talking about women's soccer is really fantastic news about former US women's national team goalkeeper, Briana Scurry.
Lindsay: Love!
Shireen: Yeah. Briana Scurry was elected to the national soccer hall of fame. And this is important for many reasons. First of all, she's the first Black female player to be inducted, and that's pretty incredible. And she's also the first female goalkeeper, and we're talking about a country with a history of really strong goalkeepers. But the fact that she's there…And in my opinion, and I'm not biased at all. But Briana Scurry's contribution to the 1999 World Cup win for the women against China has not been as amplified as I think it ought to have been. Don’t forget, the US won that entire tournament on penalty shots. And she stopped them when they were playing China. And still, like, we see these images in our heads…Like for me, it'll be Brandi Chastain taking off her shirt. Like, that image for me was powerful for different reasons. But I didn't see the hoopla and the fanfare about Briana Scurry that I should have.
And her comments, her quotes are so humble. This is an incredibly humble, humble person. And I'll just read this. She says, “It's a fantastic honor to be inducted to the hall of fame.” And she said this via a US Soccer press release. “Soccer had already given me so much more than I could possibly give back. Now to be inducted alongside the likes of Michelle Akers, Mia Hamm, Kristine Lilly. I am truly humbled. And though my mother and father have passed, I can feel their pride swell. Thank you for letting me play for you, and thank you all for this incredible honor.” Like, just what an amazing person to say that. And also still amplifying the players that she's played with, her teammates, her former teammates, like, just what a lovely person. I'm really excited about this.
Lindsay: I agree. And it must be said, she's also a great advocate these days for concussion awareness and concussion protocol. So, she’s just doing so much good for the game.
Shireen: Just one last thing which is really quick when we're talking about women's soccer. I just wanted to add in that I just saw the news today that in Afghanistan they're starting a premier women's soccer league. They already have an existing league, but this is really important and really, really great in terms of…The news hasn't been released in English. It was in Persian that the report came out, but just amplifying about development and sustainability of women's soccer leagues all over the world. So, that's really exciting as well. So yay for women's soccer.
Lindsay: All right. Now I'm going to talk to Rhiannon Walker. Shireen, I had a great talk with Rhiannon, whose a work we love here at Burn It All Down, just taking a deep dive into the history of African Americans in tennis and Black people around the world in tennis. So, enjoy that. All right. I am joined now by Rhiannon Walker, an associate editor at The Undefeated, a site at ESPN that focuses on the intersection of race and culture and sports. Is that the best way to describe it, Rhiannon?
Shireen: I mean, you could have said race, sports and culture, but you know, I liked the remix of it. [Lindsay laughs] It sounds nice. It rolls off the tongue a little bit there.
Lindsay: Well, okay. Well, you know, I'm just throwing out some tips there. [laughter] You know I love tennis, and you know I love discussing the intersection of race and sport. So of course I had to have you on to discuss what…I’m not sure if this is an Undefeated thing or if this is a week that I just didn't know about. But The Undefeated, it was Black tennis week. So if you guys haven't checked it out, we will link in the show notes. Rhiannon did I think it was like a hundred pieces this week on the history of African-Americans in tennis and Black people in tennis overall. She goes back more than a century. This is much more than just, you know, talk about Serena. There's a lot here, so I'm just going to dive right into it. But first I want to ask you, what brought about this project? Is this a week that like is usually Black tennis week, or was this an Undefeated thing where you thought we need to focus in on this tennis?
Rhiannon: So, we’ve done a few different weeks at The Undefeated. You had asked me if this was something that just generally occurred. And to my knowledge, I don't think so. But it was something where last year during the Olympics, we had water week, which was run by Martenzie Johnson, one of our researchers. And it just happened to coincide with the fact that Simone Manuel won the silver medal in the 100 meter freestyle. And so we looked like, you know, we had planned this whole thing out. And yeah, we had planned water week, but had we planned Simone Manuel winning? Heck no. [laughter]
Lindsay: How powerful are you, really?
Rhiannon: You know what? I wish I had that kind of power, because let me tell you, I'd be breaking news more than the Woj bombs we got out here. [Lindsay laughs] So, we did not plan it so much so because it was something that already occurred. It was just that we've done different weeks before. And Kevin had gotten an email from a guy about the American Tennis Association having their championships in late July, early August. And we knew that that overlapped with the Citi Open. So it was kind of like, all right, well, if you can find a way – this is Lisa talking to me, Lisa's like, you know, can you find a way to create a week's worth of content about Black tennis? I run a ton of sometimes archival research. I've found stories as far back as 1870. So, if that tells you anything about what I can do sometimes. But basically it's just finding different stories that would educate people about people outside of Serena Williams or Venus Williams. As great as they are, there are so many other Black tennis stars that kind of, like with the Negro Leagues, they never got an opportunity to shine just because the timing wasn't right. Which, you know, sucks to say, but there was just so much to do. And just if I had the time to find it, it was something that I was able to write about. And I was really pleased that we were able to get everything in because when we were talking earlier, like, there was a lot of research done, and it would not have been able to be done in like, say, 1, 2 weeks’ time. So this was a lot of fun to do.
Lindsay: Definitely. I loved how you just tie this into society. In one of your pieces, you wrote that going back to the 1890s, there were three things that kind of shaped how Black people in tennis were treated during the formative years for the sport. Break that down for me. What were those three things?
Rhiannon: So, the first thing was an 1890 law in Louisiana that simply said Black and white people cannot ride in the same travel car. And this set up 1892, where Homer Plessy, he was a 7/8ths white guy, 1/8th Black guy. But if you know anything about the one drop rule, that 1/8 made him Black in a lot of the eyes of the law, even though he looked on his exterior to be a white guy. So he buys a first-class ticket and he sits in the white car section. And you know, he's doing this actively. Like, I mean, again, he looks white. So unless he's telling people “I’m 1/8 Black” they're not going to necessarily know that. But he gets arrested because he is Black and he sitting in the white car and that's illegal because of the 1890 law. Fast forward to 1896, you have Plessy versus Ferguson, which sets up the constitutional law that allows for separate but equal.
And within that ruling, the judges basically say that if you're suggesting that Black people's accommodation in public facilities is somehow less than that of white people’s, well, that's just in your mind – which you can pretty much bring up to today if you really want to – and that it's all in your mind. If you guys allow yourself to think that you're inferior, then that's on you. Another judge said, you know, the law can't make you all like necessarily equal as people. Like, you know, white people are obviously superior in like thought, intellect, just general living. So it's not like the law can make you guys somehow equal in that playing field. It can give you equal civil rights, but social rights, it cannot create equal treatment for you all.
So there was one judge, I think it was John Marshall Harlan, who basically said that, you know, equal should be equal. Everyone should have equal access to the same public facilities. That's just the way the law sees…The law does not see Black and white, Asian, Latinx, whatever. But his dissent will not become the rule of law until 1954 with the Brown vs Board of Education in Topeka, Kansas. So it was one of those things where it's like, you can say that sports has not been affected by the things that happen in society, but that's just patently not true. Plessy vs Ferguson is the reason why African-Americans had to create their own leagues. That was part of the reason why they were excluded from so many different sports. The US Lawn Tennis Association looks at that, and they exclude Black people from participating at the West Side Tennis Club for years. And so the American Tennis Association, they are founded in 1916 – November 30th, I believe. And then they have their first national championships in 1970.
But Plessy vs Ferguson was also the reason why you have to have the Negro Leagues be created as well too. You've got the Harlem Globetrotters. You've got the Harlem Rens. Black people were not allowed to participate in the same leagues as white people were. I would say the one exception I noted was that in 1887, Major League Baseball excluded Black people. So Moses Fleetwood Walker had been playing in the majors, but he was eventually pushed out, as were other African-Americans. So that came three years before the 1890 law. But all this to say that if you are open to learning about these kinds of things and understanding how that law created a situation where Black people were not able to participate in the same major leagues as white people, and therefore had to create their own things. This is the same reason we had the Black press. This is this the same reason we had Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We had to create our own things, and there was no other way around it.
And for the most part – and I hate to say it, but I also have to acknowledge that because of the fact that we had to create our own things, you had to support your own things as well. Black people weren't allowed to move into different neighborhoods. So, one of the things my parents always talk about is that your wealthy Black people, your middle-class Black people and your poor Black people all lived in the same neighborhood. Everyone could see what was happening. And so it raised and it elevated, it made things seem more attainable. You can't deny that if someone tangibly sees a neighbor that has nice things and they live right down the same street as them, that makes it seem more feasible for them to do it themselves. Whereas once Brown vs Board of Education happened, integration start to occur, those same wealthy Black people moved out of those areas.
I mean, they could move where they wanted it to, and, you know, obviously deal with whatever treatment came their way, but they didn't have to live in the same neighborhood as all the other Black people. So they did that. And when you stop seeing tangible success, when you stop seeing the doctors and you stopped seeing the lawyers, when you stopped seeing the academics and people in your neighborhood, that changes a lot of how you perceive yourself. All that to say is that society impact sports, but sports also impacts society. As you know, 1947, we've got Jackie Robinson going to the Brooklyn Dodgers, and that's 7 years before Brown vs Board of Education. You've got Althea Gibson in 1950 going to the West Side Tennis Club.
Lindsay: A lot of people, like, you know, this is one of the things that my research…Everyone thinks of Arthur Ashe, but it was Althea Gibson who broke the color barrier.
Rhiannon: Yes! Yes.
Lindsay: And it's another example in my mind of like Black women kind of getting written out of history in this way.
Rhiannon: And that's the thing is, she had to deal with the fact that 1) she was a Black person, but then 2) she's a woman. And, you know, if you know Malcolm X and his speech, he said, you know, who was the worst treated, who is the most disrespected person in America? Black women. And it holds true to this day, that fact that her accomplishments, the fact that she won the Australian Open and that she is quickly forgotten, all of what she won, the first grand slam in 1956, the French championships. And Arthur Ashe won in 1968. And how quickly, like in just 12 years, like, she's forgotten. I mean, I've read stories by like Bud Columns of the Boston Globe, and he called Arthur Ashe the first African-American to win a grand slam. And I'm thinking to myself, how do you forget Althea Gibson, seriously? Like, how do you forget her?
But that was one of the stories that I wrote about and it was the most heart-wrenching because I wrote about her and I came to realize that in 1996, she was actually on the verge of committing suicide because she felt like no one cared about her. And in talking to the director, you know, part of that is because she was kind of an isolationist. I mean, she did like stay off to herself, but that still does not all include like the fact that she goes to a restaurant with her former doubles partner Angela Buxton, and they have dinner set up at obviously not the West Side Tennis Club, but they have it at the US Open and the former champions are all there, and they don't recognize her. They don't know who she is. And she gets turned away. And she's embarrassed by this because it's like, how do you not know who I am? Like, I'm the only Black woman that's ever won a grand slam. It’s not hard to mistake me for anybody. I'm the only one.
Lindsay: Right. And I mean, she broke the color barrier in golf, I believe, too. She went on to the LPGA.
Rhiannon: Yeah, she did. I mean, there's so much about Althea Gibson that you could talk about. She's also a fantastic singer too. She had two albums. She was in a movie. She also toured with the Harlem Globetrotters. Just, there's so much from the movie…If you can't tell, I love history. [laughter] So it was like, there's so much from the movie that you learn and you just sit there saying to yourself, how did I…Like, there were things I didn't know. I didn't know that she was suicidal. I didn't know that she had toured with the Harlem Globetrotters. I knew about the LPGA, but I didn't know that she had been in movies or that she had this ability to sing. It's just one of those things where you sit there frustrated, like, why are these things not taught more extensively in school or in college or whatever, talked about more broadly within the news. And then there was an interview that I did that talked about how if the roles reversed, Arthur Ashe and then Althea Gibson, he's just like, I think it would have been easier for people to remember her, because it's like, people always want to see like men succeed at something first. Like, how many biopics do you see of men? How many autobiographies and biographies do you see of these men who break the racial color barrier?
Lindsay: Too many, Rhiannon! Too many. [laughs]
Rhiannon: So, you know, it's just…But he is right. Like for instance, Alice Coachman was the first African-American woman to win an Olympic gold medal. But I mean, if I didn't know any better, I would have thought it was Wilma Rudolph. As great as Wilma Rudolph was, I mean, it's one of those things where it's like, I actually went out and I sought it out. I was like, you know, I don't ever see them say she was the first. So like, I got to go and check this out now. But I know Jesse Owens was though. I know that definitively.
Lindsay: And it's important to learn this history, because when I've written about Althea before, if you look back at the things that people said about her, talking about how she's instinctively aggressive, talking about her body type, questioning her gender, even, you know? It's the same stuff that we see Serena Williams deal with today. And so you have to learn your history before you can realize like history is repeating itself, hello. So I thought what was really interesting was you talked about these institutions that really kept Black tennis alive, in particular the Black press. There was one line in there where you talked about how, you know, Jackie Robinson doesn't get credit for what he did in the Negro Leagues and his success in the Negro Leagues. They're a forgotten kind of part of it, almost like it didn't matter until he broke this barrier.
And there's some similarities between of course how we talk about Arthur Ashe and how we talk about Althea and how once this color barrier was broken, the American Tennis Association kind of got lost in the background and shuffled into the background. How were they…Re-inventing is the wrong word, but how are they finding their place and appreciating the role they played in society, but also still being…I mean, they still exist. They're still around. How are they handling that?
Rhiannon: Oh man. So, this is one of the things that I was…So, I'll be honest with you, when Lisa told me to write about the American Tennis Association, I had never heard of the American Tennis Association. And I was pretty embarrassed by that fact, because they are the first and the oldest Black sports league in the United States – not the Negro leagues. So it was one of those things where I was like, well, why don't I know anything about them? Like, again, they're not in my history books. They weren't necessarily taught in any of my classes. And I went looking to see like, okay, so what are the reasons why I know about things? Well, I know about things because of social media. I know about things because other people talk about them or they have other experiences with them and things of that nature.
And I realized that I probably would've known about the American Tennis Association much earlier on in my life if they had been more…Like, if people associated Arthur Ashe, Althea Gibson, Lori McNeil, Zina Garrison, or any number of these other Black tennis stars, like, you know, from 1900 to 1980 or so on, with the American Tennis Association. I mean, the reason I know that about the Negro Leagues when I was little is because of Jackie Robinson or Satchel Paige. I realized that he was right. It's just like, everyone knows that Jackie Robinson was with the Negro Leagues. Like, that's without question. But not everyone associates Arthur Ashe with the American Tennis Association or the fact that Althea Gibson won 10 straight women's singles for the American Tennis Association.
Lindsay: Exactly. It feels like it doesn't count until it's the breakthrough, which, you know, marginalizes these fantastic institutions to a damaging degree.
Rhiannon: Yeah, and I really can't understand, like, they have done so much for Black tennis, like, the fostering of the talent, putting the best players against each other and getting them to a point where they could play in these opens and everything else like that. And I was thinking back, like, you know, I know like during Black History Month, like I hear a ton about Negro Leagues and things of that nature. Like, we have movies we watch, there's a museum that exists, and all these other different aspects about it. So, I mean, I had grown up knowing about this whole entity. And what I talked about with the American Tennis Association is like, for instance, you know that we love on Twitter or any of our social media, we love highlights and all kinds of different stuff like that. They're still around. The Negro Leagues is not. I remember, I think it was Rafael Nadal who hit that shot on the back of the baseline between his legs and like that highlight, like, that's a SportsCenter top 10 highlight right there.
And I'm sitting here like, y’all, the American Tennis Association – y‘all have to have plays that like pop up like that. Something like that goes on social media, that thing blows up. People, at least at the very minimum, people see the handle and now they know like, oh, you exist. They have a Facebook, they have an Instagram that they don't use. They don't have Snapchat, Periscope or Twitter. And I'm just thinking to myself, hey, you guys have managed to do something that not a whole bunch of other Black organizations have been able to do, which is to stay alive. You guys have to have a social media presence at this point in time, especially if a lot of the people that are attending this do tend to be older and not necessarily younger. It's like, you want to have these things around so people can go and find these things. A lot of your best stars are not necessarily playing in the American Tennis Association.
So how do you guys get them…Maybe you don't get them to play, but how do you get them to come and participate? Because even that would boost the amount of people that would be interested in coming out. Like if a Serena Williams or Venus Williams, a James Blake – I would love to see James Blake in person, or a Gael Monfils, Sloane Stephens, or any of these other Black tennis stars that are coming up. How do you get them to come to the American Tennis Association and to work with you all and find ways to get more people to know about what you all are doing? Like, how do you guys continue to broadcast that stuff?
Lindsay: Well, I think that this week was a good step because they inaugurated or honored Richard Williams by bringing him into the hall of fame there, which is really important. I want to read a clip from Rhiannon's piece, because she was there for Richard Williams' induction. Unfortunately, Venus and Serena were not, but I'm just gonna let this clip speak for herself. “As he watched highlights of his daughters, who did not attend the ceremony, Williams pulled out his thick framed glasses and cracked a smile two or three times. The 100 people in the ballroom oohed and ahhed while Williams looked like he was prepared to go back to his daughters and let them know the things they could improve on. Williams dressed for his induction and a pair of dad jeans, black Nike low rise sneakers, and a shirt with his face on the front and the 10 commandments as a coach on the back. Truly iconic, also comfortable.”
[laughs] So, that’s an amazing scene. But you know, it made me sad because it fell under the radar that he was getting this big honor this week. And, you know, I mean, look, his daughters didn't even show up, and you know, Serena's got her baby shower. Venus has a big tournament next week. But, you know, I wish it was a bigger deal. And I mean, he seems like a shoo-in for the tennis hall of fame, the international tennis hall of fame, which will be I'm sure a bigger deal. But once again, it's the thing where, why, you know, why aren't we devoting…Why don't we care that he's being inaugurated into the American Tennis Association hall of fame? And I'm sure you know this, the Serena and Venus effect…You look at the Tiger Woods effect in golf, and there is none, you know? [laughter] Like, maybe in the fitness of golfers, but you're not seeing a huge influx of diversity in golf.
But in tennis, it is more diverse these days. I mean, two of the brightest stars in women's game are Madison Keys and Sloane Stephens who joined Serena and Venus on the Olympics team last year. It was the first time it had been all Black women. The men's game is...We’ve got Frances Tiafoe who, you know, is up and coming. I'm not saying it's the most diverse sport there is, but there are signs that it's improving. But I was at the Citi Open pretty much all week, and one of the things I noticed is while I know you wrote that Arthur Ashe fought to have this tournament in the city so that it would be more accessible to Black people and to a diverse city crowd, there weren't that many Black people at the Citi Open this week, you know? I mean, there's an international audience that always comes to these tennis tournaments. But it does seem like in many ways, despite all that Serena and Venus have done, that there's still a disconnect between the Black community and tennis as a whole. Do you sense that, and how do you think we fix that?
Rhiannon: Well, actually it's funny, because this was something that Arthur talked to me about again, and he was saying that, you know, Black people obviously watch Serena and Venus Williams. I mean, we will stop like what we're doing in a given day to watch them if they're like in the process of making it to a championship. That does happen. He brought up an interesting point. He said, you know, I think that like Black people would be more interested if there was like a strong male candidate playing tennis right now, kind of similar to the Althea Gibson, Arthur Ashe conversation. I mean, we talk about history repeating itself, but remember all the media buzz that was going on when Arthur Ashe was coming up. I mean, it was different than what Althea got. And certainly Arthur Ashe was never forgotten about. And I thought about it and I was like, he's probably right. I mean, you can look at…If we had a Black golfer that was on the same level as Tiger Woods, done the same thing he had done–
Lindsay: But a Black tennis player. Yeah.
Rhiannon: Yeah. And it's like, I wonder if it would have been as big of a deal, like, you know, Black people and their interest in golf. But we had the Williams sisters and it's like, yes, there is a big audience that is watching them. That is without a doubt. I do wonder though, if it wasn't a Black male tennis player, would we see something to similar effects of like, you know, how much interest there was after Tiger Woods started to show his signs of dominance? There is always with women that, yes, they can do these great things but they still are not going to get the same level of attention that men do. And like, even for instance, the conversation about Serena Williams being the greatest – it's not a question! She is the greatest. She is the greatest. I don't understand how Murray can figure this out, but we have all this dissent going on everywhere else about whether she's just the greatest female athlete or whether she’s...Who is doing what she's doing at her at her age? She’s gonna come back from being pregnant and she's gonna still come out and dominate.
Lindsay: Yeah. It goes back to, you know, in women's sports, it's not just race, it's then, you know, the sexism and then of course the homophobia that exists. Even when, you know, that doesn't mean that all female athletes are a gay, of course that's not true, but it's this assumed when you're already subverting these gender stereotypes, that's what people assume and then that's when the claws come out again. Well, this was fascinating. I could talk to you about this literally forever. [laughter] But I think that we will just have to have you back on. But thank you so much for joining us, Rhiannon, and thank you for doing this work, because it is so important. We won't link to all of her articles, because that would be our whole show notes, but we'll link to the page itself. And I urge you all to check it out. Now it is time for the – I would say best segment that we ever do [laughs] – the segment I probably look forward to the most every week, the burn pile. Shireen, did anything make you mad this week in the world of sports?
Shireen: I love that question. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. I think for me, there was a couple of things that got me really angry, but the biggest one was in last couple of weeks we've been so engulfed in women's soccer that we forget sometimes that the men are playing too. [laughs] And what happens is in professional football, and this is considered the off season, major teams end up traveling around. So, Inter Milan was playing Chelsea in Singapore. They're playing a touring match in Singapore. And the referee that was officiating, it was the Sikh referee, and he was actually attacked viciously online with racist insults. And it was really, really bad. His name is Sukhbir Singh, and the comments about his officiating were so vile and so offensive. And yeah, I mean, we've all seen a referee make a bad call, but it was horrific. At this point they're saying that they are investigating those people making those comments, but I'm not really sure what would be done. Kick it Out is an organization that monitors racialized violence and abuse and they're looking into it.
Lindsay: All right. My addition to the burn pile is Ray Lewis, whose comments about Colin Kaepernick this week made me want to pull all of my hair out. In case you’re not on Kaepernick watch like the rest of us are, Kaepernick is still not signed to a team. The Ravens had been going back and forth on signing him, but they called their hall of famer Ray Lewis to ask if he had any input. Ray Lewis of course was involved in a murder trial and at the very least was passively involved in an incident that led to someone's murder. So, you know, obviously he is a bastion of morality. Lewis said that Kaepernick needs to “not let people know what he does off of the field. The mistakes I made, I've never repeated twice,” Lewis said in a video that he recorded on his social media, directly talking to Colin Kaepernick and the rest of the world. Of course, mind you, I am sure that if Lewis really wanted to just talk directly to Colin Kaepernick, he could find Colin Kaepernick's contact information and not have to make this big show of things.
But look, this is just disgusting. I've never liked Ray Lewis. He is a showboat who uses faith as a weapon to lift up his own superiority and put down those around him. And he's been involved, like we said, in really horrible things, has never taken responsibility for them, and seems to think that he can tell everyone else what to do. And he's just the exact opposite type of person as Kaepernick, who was really, you know, letting his actions back up his words. And I just am so over people trying to justify why teams aren't signing Colin Kaepernick. There's no justification. Colin Kaepernick is doing nothing wrong, and there's no other excuse other than bigotry. And so Ray Lewis, your comments, personal comments directly to Colin Kaepernick that you broadcast over the internet are going into the burn pile.
Shireen: Burn.
Lindsay: Okay. Now it's also my favorite segment we do every week, [laughter] badass woman of the week. I think I just love everything we do. I'm just a big fan of us. Shireen, do you want to tell us about our honorable mention this week? And then I'll tell us about our queen of the week.
Shireen: Sure. Definitely. So this was exciting for me to see: JaVonnii Merritt is the first Black woman in Tennessee to get an NCAA Division I rugby scholarship. Now she will be going to Life University in Marietta, Georgia to study psychology, business, and she also plans to mentor youth. So, wow, JaVonnii, that's amazing. Love to see more diversity in rugby.
Lindsay: Love that. Oh my gosh, diversity everywhere. Our winner this week is Claressa Shields, who entered the ring at her fight this week wearing the logo – or acronym, is that the proper thing? Yes. I don't know what words are. The acronym said GWOAT for greatest woman of all time. This was for the world boxing council and international boxing federation super middleweight titles at MGM Grand in Detroit on Friday night. She knocked out the previously undefeated German, Nikki Adler at 1:34 in the fifth round to claim the crown. And the two time Olympic medalist did this at the main event called ShoBox: The New Generation. It's a Showtime fighting showcase, and it's only the second time that women have headlined a nationally televised fight on Showtime. The first time was also Shields, who beat Szilvia Szabados to win the North American Boxing Federation. That was in March. So Shields is now 4-0 in her professional debut with two knockouts, she now has the 168 pound world title. And I think that greatest woman of all time works. Don't you?
And I love her quote, just to read it. It's kind of the epitome of badass. “Yeah, I definitely felt like I was in there. In the first round, I didn't have any nerves. I wasn't nervous. I knew from the get-go I'm about to kick her ass right quick. I'm not going home without these belts. I was ready for a war. I was ready to dominate. I was ready to knock her out. And I was happy to get the win.” We love you!
Shireen: That’s amazing.
Lindsay: All right, Shireen, is there anything you're really looking forward to this week or anything that kind of excited you?
Shireen: Like we talked about, I am so excited for the Euros finals that are going to happen later today. I did want to quickly mention that this was something I was…I live in Ontario and I was driving around. I happened to come across the national championship of timber sport. So I got to watch the women's wood chopping final yesterday, a little bit of that, which is not something I'd ever seen before.
Lindsay: Wait, what? That’s the most Canadian thing I've ever heard. [laughter]
Shireen: It was so much fun.
Lindsay: My idea of like Canadian sport is like hockey, curling and wood chopping. [laughs]
Shireen: You know, it's a life skill, but it was so…I just happened to be there. And TSN, which is our national sports broadcaster, one of them was showing it. And I'm like, this was so cool. There was the female announcer and these two women were on the stage and they were whacking these logs. And I'm like, this is amazing. It was super cool. So I was really excited. This was in London, Ontario. So that was so exciting.
Lindsay: I’m not laughing at the women. I'm laughing at Shireen and Canada. I would like to say. [laughs]
Shireen: You love it. You know, when you come visit me, we are going to the timber sport championships. It was so much fun. And both of the women in the final were from BC, because I guess they have more forest than the rest of us. I don't know. But they were from British Columbia and it was just so great to see them, because I mean, those axes are heavy. So that was awesome.
Lindsay: Yeah. That's impressive. I'm not even gonna lie. Okay. So for me, this isn't coming out this week necessarily, but the WNBA players are going to be in NBA Live! Girls are going to be able to play video games of their favorite WNBA players. And look, I am not a gamer. I love gamers. I have nothing against gamers. I'm just not one. But I'm going to buy this video game and I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I like teared up when I saw the ads for it. It's a big deal! Like, that's a big deal.
Shireen: It’s a huge deal. Yeah.
Lindsay: So I'm really, really excited that we're gonna be able to play video games as these badass female athletes. So that is awesome. Love that. All right. Anything else? Shireen? I think we did it. [laughs]
Shireen: No, I'm just still reveling in the timber sport chopping. I love it.
Lindsay: Now, I don't know if it rivals cornhole, but it's close. It's close. [laughter]
Shireen: That's a Canadian version, I guess you could say.
Lindsay: America's drunk sport is a beanbag throwing, and Canada's is wood chopping with an ax. That sounds about right.
Shireen: Oh my gosh. I hope it's not a drunk sport though. Like, drunk Canadians with axes? I don't know.
Lindsay: On that note, I think it's time to say goodbye. That's it for this week's episode of Burn It All Down. Burn It All Down is on Soundcloud. You can hear it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, TuneIn and Google Play. We really need your reviews. I know it's annoying to go review podcasts. I'm very bad at doing it myself, but I will say, since having a podcast, I've gone and reviewed many because I realized like what a big deal it is. We're really trying to grow our audience so we can keep making this a sustainable work because we put so much into it. So that is one way without any money and very little time that you can really help us out, is just going to iTunes and putting a review. Also subscribing, get your friends to subscribe, you know, just like take their phones from them and like subscribe on the podcast app for them. I promise you it will be really easy. And then that will also help us a lot.
Follow us on Twitter @burnitdownpod, and on Facebook at Burn It All Down. Our website is burnitalldownpod.com. Our email – we love, love hearing from you guys on email. Trust me, like, Shireen, screencaps the emails and she likes sends us to all of us, and then she gets really mad if we don't respond about how awesome they are right away. [laughter] She's like, did you see this? Did you see this? Did you see this? And we did. And we love it. So, our email is burnitalldownpod@gmail.com. And once again, if you want to support us, we do still have a GoFundMe page going. These small donations are helping us out so so much. We are so grateful. We're putting these towards our technical contributions and to getting some help weekly for some of the editing and things like that, so that we can keep this going. Speaking of editing, this is edited and mixed by Ellie Gordon-Moershel. I'm Lindsay Gibbs, and Shireen Ahmed is there, and the rest of the crew will be back next week, and we will see you then next week. Thanks guys.