Episode 2: Sexual abuse in gymnastics, support for women's sport, and diversity in sports media
In this week’s episode of Burn It All Down, Julie DiCaro, Jessica Luther, Brenda Elsey, Shireen Ahmed, Lindsay Gibbs, and Stacey May Fowles discuss the Larry Nassar hearing, the state of women’s professional sports, and the troubling silence of women in sports media. Plus, you’ll hear The Burn Pile and the Badass Women of the Week!
Discussion of the sexual abuse case of Larry Nasser and its place in USA gymnastics and university athletics (12:10) Progress in women’s professional sports, WNBA and NWSL, MLB’s promotion of girls’ series (21:10) Rumors of FC Barcelona establishing NWSL team? (24:23) Women’s self-censorship in sports’ media, especially in light of industry awards and ESPN layoffs (29:42) New pieces in sports’ media, where are the voices of people of color? Shireen Ahmed has compiled a list of women/GNB writers of color (34:31) Burn Pile – hosts set metaphorical fire to Frank Clark (36:43) Romanian Tennis Captain Ilie Nastase’s sexist and racist remarks (40:08) FIFA avoids a vote on the Israeli West Bank clubs (44:09) MLB’s campaigns to women based on their supposed love of jewelry and exclusively on identity as mothers (46:15) Sports Emmys ignore women (46:53) Badass Women of the Week – AEM Girls’ Soccer team wins Madrid Boys’ League championship (48:13) Honorable mentions – 1st African woman, Saray Khumalo summits Everest (48:56) Volleyball player, Lanesha Reagan opens up about mental health (49:20) Shout-out to all the mom-athletes on mothers’ day! (49:52).
Links
Nassar: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/12/former_usa_gymnastics_msu_doct.html and https://thinkprogress.org/81-people-have-accused-former-usa-gymnastics-coach-of-sexual-assault-7de2c18d4186
WNBA Daily fantasy: http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/19357122/wnba-joins-daily-fantasy-sports-market-deal-fanduel
Lifetime/NWSL deal: https://thinkprogress.org/nwsl-lifetime-agreement-future-72a112d0ddc7
FC Barcelona/NWSL: https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/05/12/barcelona-womens-team-nwsl-us-soccer
Media Matters on the coverage of sexual violence and sport: https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/05/12/women-sports-media-discuss-what-s-missing-coverage-sexual-violence/216411
Shireen Ahmed’s list of WOC in sports media: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14-B8pM3ydFVQauv-hyLprMP-PYyEyYNwGmNUecYsE_I/edit
Frank Clark: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/05/11/seahawks-declare-extreme-disappointment-with-frank-clark/ and http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/19352755/frank-clark-seattle-seahawks-issues-second-apology-reporter-tweet
Nastase: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/tennis/article146429214.html
FIFA and Israeli West Bank clubs: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/03/fifa-delay-israeli-settlement-decision-fuels-concern-170317080253187.html
Cardinals’ tweet about female fans and jewelry: https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/09/st-louis-cardinals-delete-sexist-tweet-after-backlash-from-fans/22077966/
MLB’s Mother’s Day/Breast Cancer combo: http://web.mlbcommunity.org/index.jsp?content=programs&program=mothers_day
Sports Emmys Winners 2017 (pdf): http://cdn.emmyonline.org/sports_38th_winners_v02.pdf
AEM Madrid’s soccer team: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/sports/soccer/girls-soccer-team-won-boys-league-spain.html?_r=0
Sarya Khumalo: https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/saray-khumalo-takes-on-everest
Transcript
Julie: Hey, it's Julie. Thanks for downloading Burn It All Down. If you enjoy the podcast and want to help us out, the best way to do so is to subscribe and leave a rating and review on iTunes or Stitcher. Subscriptions, ratings, and reviews help us reach more listeners, and you'll have our undying appreciation. You can also subscribe on TuneIn. Thanks so much, and enjoy the show.
Welcome to another episode of Burn It All Down. It may not be the feminist podcast you want, but it's the feminist podcast you need. Joining us today is Jessica Luther, author of the fantastic book Unsportsmanlike Conduct, and a freelance writer all over the place; Lindsay Gibbs of ThinkProgress, who has got a full day ahead of her today as well with a lot of stuff happening in Washington; Brenda Elsey, associate professor at Hofstra University who focuses on gender, culture, politics, and a whole bunch of other things; Shireen Ahmed, freelance writer for places like Unusual Efforts, Vice sports, The Independent, all kinds of freelance outlets – we love reading her work. And Stacey May Fowles, author of the new book, Baseball Life Advice, and writer for The Athletic.
Alright, ladies, let's jump right into it this morning. The Larry Nassar case is taking place. They're sort of ramping up as we speak. Jessica, do you want to tell us about that one?
Jessica: Sure. So, Larry Nassar was a doctor for both USA Gymnastics and Michigan State. For years and years he's been reported by over a hundred women and girls for sexual assaults over those years, reported multiple times. He had a pretrial hearing on Friday where two women and a teenager testified in court to what he did to them. And I mean, it's a horrific case. He's been reported over time…The way that we hear about this, right? Like, the women knew about this. They talked to each other about it. They reported to coaches. No one ever stepped in.
This is part of a larger USA Gymnastics scandal – which is a word I hate, but we don't really have an alternative where, you know, something like 360 gymnasts have come forward to say that they were abused. He's one of the abusers in those cases. He worked at Michigan State and, in 2014, Michigan State actually did a Title IX case and they investigated him and found that he had done nothing wrong. So, he's part of two institutions that have failed these victims over and over again. And we're just starting now to get the criminal side of this.
Julie: So, one of the things to me that is so absolutely egregious about this case is that he was reportedly doing what he called “cervical manipulation” with no glove on and no lubrication. And I mean, a lot of us have had probably a lot of gynecological exams over the years. I've never heard of anyone doing anything without a glove and without lubrication. Especially to see girls who are so, so young, it just seems completely baffling that they could look at this and think that this is a legitimate medical procedure.
Shireen: I can't even imagine, for girls that young…I mean, to have something like a pap smear when you're seven or eight, I don't even know if it's medically necessary, unless there's a history of some type of cervical cancer. I just can't even.
Julie: It sounds painful.
Lindsay: It does. And I mean, one of the things as Jessica mentioned, Michigan State as recently as 2014, the Title IX office dismissed these complaints after the woman said that Nassar had – trigger warning here – cupped her buttocks, massaged her breasts and vaginal area, and became sexually aroused. And the Title IX office told this girl that she didn't understand “the nuanced difference between sexual assault and an appropriate medical procedure.”
Julie: YUCK.
Lindsay: So, I mean, I don't even know what you do with that. Just like at Penn State, just like we've seen…I mean, a slightly different case, but at Baylor with lots of these sexual assault allegations. Or like Jessica said, “scandals” – I can't think of a better word, even though that's not the best one. But I think that there's time and time again, dating back this time I think since 1997, where these women have come forward and said to either USA Gymnastics or to the coaches at Michigan State that they questioned this procedure. At one point, the coach, Kathie Klages – who just retired after she was suspended last fall, so, very recently – she completely dismissed their complaints, said that there was nothing. And then when told Larry Nassar about what the women were saying! So, I guess to kind of prepare him.
So, I mean, we're talking cover-up and conspiracy. This goes really deep. And reading some of the things that she said as recently as last fall when these allegations came out, and there are women on the current gymnastics team who said, look, we didn't feel comfortable agreeing with these. She created what the athletics director at Michigan State called an “emotionally charged environment,” where she was telling them that they could report anything to these officers, to the Title IX office, but while also praising him and praising the work that he had done.
Brenda: You know, I went to Michigan State and I worked for the athletics department and it's so horrifying what's happening. And, as Jessica said, the way that these institutions have failed their students and these young women. And something that I can't get over in these cases is how universities have tried over and over to exclude professors from taking part in the governance over Title IX. These are our students, and every time, you know, it took me at Hofstra many years to get on the athletics committee. And we made professors and faculty a majority vote, because they don't have a stake in doing things like protecting these people. And it's shocking to me and just saddening. So I'd just like to say as an alum to Michigan State, you're out of your minds. I hope we can mobilize professors and students and alumni in such a way that we can hold people more accountable.
Jessica: I just wanted to add one other thing about this. Part of what's so shocking about the USA Gymnastics scandal and Nassar in particular is how little anyone seems to care about this. And I mean that in the sense of the coverage within the media, and then just sort of fan response, sport fan response. I mean, I know that I see this pop up on my timeline and social media, and I have conversations with friends like you all, but it's a pretty limited group of people that I know I can reach out to to talk about this issue, because people just don't care. And I think it’s a very complicated thing going on as far as, you know, the popularity of the sport, the gender of the victims.
But for me, it basically comes down to the fact that this is a story about victims, and we just don't care about them. Nassar is not famous, he's not Sandusky, or, you know, in that case, Paterno. That was the real story there. And it just makes me incredibly sad to know the numbers and the institutional failure here, and just how little we really talk about it.
Julie: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And, you know, as a former gymnast, who was a gymnast for many, many years, it's a weird sport because your body is not your own, you know? You are from a very young age used to adult men and women touching you everywhere. Your coaches spot you, there are no physical boundaries between you and your coach, as to where they're going to grab you and touch you. And most of the time it's entirely innocent, but I think that that really contributes to cases like this, where little girls learn from a very young age that their bodies are not their own, that they are constantly manipulated and judged and worked on by other people. And I think that there's a real problem in gymnastics in general when it comes to boundaries between the sport and the girls that are taking part in it.
I know that, you know, my body was constantly being evaluated and spoken about to my parents, about she to do this, she needs to lose weight, she needs to work on making this stronger, she needs to make this slimmer, this needs to be bigger. And it's almost like people talk about your body as if it doesn't belong to you. And that really disturbs me, especially when I hear about cases like this. Lindsay?
Lindsay: I think that's a really great point, Julie, because what you do see is these women wondering, you know? They feel that something's not right, but then they report it to adults who say, well, that probably is right, because he’s this respected god in the gymnastics community. And I just kept going back to this cover-up and the way Michigan State has responded, and I want to read you something that the president of Michigan State said last month, in an announcement last month. This is Lou Anna Simon, and she said, “I've been told it is virtually impossible to stop a determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep what they do in the shadows.”
Now, the thing is, this wasn't in the shadows! There was a complaint as recently as 2014 at the university that she's a president of. And look, you have all the coaches at Michigan State supporting her, supporting the athletic director. You have nobody speaking out against this and saying maybe we didn't do enough. Maybe we didn't do enough. Maybe we messed up here. Maybe we need to look at ourselves and the way we're handling this. Instead, everyone is just passing the buck.
Julie: Yeah, I think that's right. Shireen, do you want to have the last word here?
Shireen: Well, this all totally reinforces…I’m just going to jump off of what Jess said earlier. It reinforces how little is written of this and how it's always the same women sharing the same thing. Probably most of us in the group, this group, and how it's not a new story, and it's always considered, “Oh, it's just another scandal in sports.” It's not a scandal. It's a system of toxic masculinity and violence that exists in sports and it needs to be decimated. And this is why writing about this is so important and needs to be done well, and thank god for the women that do it. But I mean, it's just so crucial to change the face of the reporting properly on these things and within sports media.
Lindsay: Yes. Sorry, I just wanted to mention that you also have a case right now in Michigan State athletics, where there've been four football players accused of sexual assault, and there's a lot of coverup going on there. Of course, this is much more recent, but when we're looking at the athletic director there and the entire system, it's clear that this problem is not – as it never is – it’s never just one coach. It's never just one team. The problem is always much, much bigger than that.
Stacey: I think it's just so interesting that so many of these cases come from women talking to each other. And that's the thing that makes me so sad about this, is that if you're reporting these things happening to you and talking to the powers that be, that gets you nowhere. But what really gets you somewhere is this groundswell of women communicating to each other, basically in the back channel. And that's the saddest thing about these stories, is that the onus is always on victims and survivors to talk about these things to each other before anything will actually happen.
Julie: That's a great point, and that's a great sort of final word on this. Let's move on to topic number two. We have a lot happening in women's pro sports right now, especially in the WNBA, which is getting ready to launch its new season. Lindsay, you want to tell us about that?
Lindsay: We've got a really exciting time right now in women's pro sports in the United States. The WNBA’s 21st season kicked off yesterday. There were games on NBA TV and on ESPN. We’re also about four to five weeks, I think this is the fifth week, of the National Women's Soccer League season, and there’s some exciting developments in both of those leagues. The WNBA in particular, just this week, it finally was announced that they have a deal for a daily fantasy – no other big daily fantasy sports have included women's pro sports in their packages, which is ridiculous, especially when you think that the WNBA is one of the only pro sports leagues that goes all summer long. And so whether, you know, you're missing out on such a great opportunity for fan engagement there.
And you've also got Twitter live streaming. Their games are going to be live streamed on Twitter – not all of them, but select games each week are going to be live streamed on Twitter, which is another really great opportunity to attract new fans. Don't read the comments though, as we all know, when it comes to women's pro sports. And we've also got the National Women's Soccer League this year, started a new deal with Lifetime and A&E. And A&E is now an equity partner in the National Women's Soccer League, which means that they're not just throwing up the games and seeing what happens and then leaving. They are seriously invested in this league succeeding in the long-term, which is something you don't see from networks like ESPN or Fox Sports when they're airing games for these women's pro sports. I did a piece on that this week for ThinkProgress.
So, I think that for me, what was exciting was that it seemed like for once that this league was going to actually get the production attention that it deserves, and it's going to get time – a few more years, and even longer, to actually keep developing and keep growing a base. And so I wanted to ask you guys, I mean, when you hear about these, obviously we're a long way from equality, but do we feel like maybe the tide is turning? Like, maybe we're getting some promising new developments when it comes to women's pro sports?
Julie: I was actually really gratified yesterday, or maybe it was the day before, to see SB Nation and put up a WNBA a preview, and it was like the top story on their website. So, I thought that…That gives me a lot of hope. And there was a lot of discussion about this when I was out at the University of Oregon this weekend, and we were talking about how it's sort of a vicious cycle where you don't know the players, you don't know the stories, therefore you're not interested in it, therefore no one writes about it, therefore no one cares about it. And maybe if we start seeing these stories and these athletes sort of mainstreamed into male dominated professional sports, maybe people will start being much more interested in these games than they have been. Shireen?
Shireen: Yeah, I just wanted to take this time to fangirl over the elevation of soccer and the game. I think this is really important because there's always this constant discussion of, well, will people watch it? And those forget that the most amount of spectators ever in US history of a soccer match were the finals of the 2015 Women's World Cup, USA vs Japan. So yes, there's absolutely an audience. I'm so excited and I'm just here to be happy. You know, I just wanted to actually get that on record that I'm happy about something in sports.
Julie: That's great. We need an un-burn pile. [Jessica laughs]
Shireen: Rising up from the ashes of garbage comes happiness.
Julie: Yes. [laughs] Jess?
Jessica: Yeah, I'm thrilled. The daily fantasy thing for the WNBA I think is incredibly significant, on the same level as Lifetime and A&E’s investment in the NWSL. The daily fantasy thing is so...Am I saying that correctly? The fantasy part of it is so important because with fan engagement, which is Lindsay's term, there's so much…So much about sport is the shared community of it, right? Like, you can talk to other people about the thing that you saw. Like, I keep up with stuff that I don't even care about so that I can have a conversation with someone about it, right? And you just can't do that with the way that media works around women's sport at this time.
And so something like this, the fantasy stuff for the WNBA provides a platform for that. And then to look at A&E investing the way that they are in women's soccer…There’s only so many untapped markets that exist in sports fandom at this point in time, and we need someone to finally believe that, that women are part of that untapped market, that fans of women's sport are that untapped market. And so, yeah, it's really fun to be on here talking about something this exciting.
Brenda: Yeah, I was just joining the happy, you know, women's soccer as a phoenix rising out of the ashes theme. This is the longest that a women's professional soccer league in the US has lasted, right? So, we're breaking new ground. And one of the things that Jessica is saying that I want to sort of add to is that honestly it has to be marketed differently. Those markets exist, but one of the things we've seen fail with previous attempts is that they try to market it in the same way that they do men's soccer, which is sort of hyped up nationalism, you know, building a national league versus other international figures and things like that. So, what we found is that that doesn't work with women as a market.
You have the Portland Thorns with the highest attendance, despite not winning last year. You still have, you know, 10, 12,000 people. That's really high for women's soccer. I mean, think about the fact that Barcelona, the women's team broke a record last month was 6,000 people in attendance. Now, the NWSL does far better than that, but they're better at marketing what they've got. And so I hope now that Marta…This is another fangirling – everyone should go see Marta, forever. She’s in Orlando. But there’s–
Shireen: Roadtrip. Roadtrip!
Brenda: Roadtrip! Roadtrip! Marta’s part of a team of three Brazilian women in Orlando. Orlando’s got to make something of that with the Brazilian community, you know? And kind of feature them and say, look at who we've got. They've got a history of that in Orlando. So anyway, my point is just I hope that Lifetime sees those markets as different than the way…And I think they probably do. And so I'm excited to see those stories that make it magnetizing for us.
Stacey: Yeah, so, baseball is way behind everything, [laughter] but the one thing that really buoyed me this year was the Trailblazer series. The MLB and USA Baseball partnered for a series for girls actually, and it was heavily promoted and it got a lot of attention. You know, I will say, it got a lot of attention from people like me, [laughs] but it was still something that if we're gonna talk about things to be optimistic about, it was something that the MLB heavily promoted and really seemed to care a great deal about. So, I think that it's nice to focus on the good things sometimes, even if baseball is terribly behind.
Lindsay: Absolutely. I mean, all over the place, and you see it with women's hockey getting a lot of coverage, even if it was over their equitable pay fight. But at least it drew attention to the fact that they exist, that they're here, that they're worthy of something. And I want to just take a minute to realize, like, we're all saying and being happy…None of us are saying we don't have a long way to go. None of us are saying that there's not still a billion barriers – and we will get to some of those in the burn pile, those specific barriers.
But look, as someone who has been following these pro leagues for quite some time, things like Twitter live streaming and daily fantasy or initiatives that fans have been clamoring for, you know what I mean? That show some sort of…Let’s take some risks, because guess what? We get to take some risks, because that's what happens when you're a start up league. That's what happens when you're younger. That's what happens when you have a smaller base. You can take more risks. And then I just couldn't be more excited to see some of these things. And I also wanted to ask Brenda for a little bit about, what, there's talk about FC Barcelona possibly starting a NWSL team? That got a little bit lost in the news for me this week. I didn't know if he knew anything else about that.
Brenda: Yeah, Barça has established an office in New York City. And so the president, Bartomeu, went into this news conference and said, you know, we're really interested maybe in having an NWSL team. And that was really exciting on the one hand; on the other hand, one wants to say, um, what about your team in Barcelona? [laughs] That you don't do very much to promote? That was just booted out of the Champions League last week? But it may actually be a case where if you had a New York team and you had a Barça team – you know, Barça A/Barça B – they could actually really build excitement for it and trade. And so if it was done right, you could see it as a really exciting thing.
I don't know if you remember last year when Barcelona striker Luis Suárez said that soccer was for men. And then he said, oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that women were playing soccer. And Barcelona and Bartomeu, they didn't come out and say anything. Like, not only do women play soccer, they play soccer in your club, professionally! So, just walk across the street from where you're having that press conference! And they invited him to a game and he couldn't go because he was really busy saying sexist things in other venues. [laughter] So, it was just, you know…So, I'm excited about it. I'm a little hesitant to see what would happen, but it could be really cool.
Shireen: Well, I mean, the name Luis Suárez just ruins my happy place. But there was a lot of little political murmurings about the announcement from Barcelona, and particularly because it was used in a way to make Real Madrid, who going to the Champs League finals, look bad, because they don't actually have a women's team. And I thought the announcement was used as a bit of a manipulation – “Look how great Barcelona is!” Yeah, no, we're not there yet. I don't think we should be tooting our own horn, considering how bad the Spanish federation generally has been with their women's teams. I mean, this is something that I wish was far more widely reported considering the hype about Spanish football.
I mean, in 2015, after the Women's World Cup, they had to go back and actually ask, make a formal request to the federation, to fire Ignacio Quereda. He'd been managing and coaching that team for years. Like, we're talking 12, I think it was. And it was stagnant and unproductive, and the women were so frustrated. And considering how shambolic the Spanish federation has generally been with their women, I think this is…It’s interesting to see where this goes. And I mean, I don't have a huge amount of trust in men running football federations anyway, but you know, I just want to see where this goes. And basically I see them. I want them to know that I see them. I'm watching them. Brenda and I are, we're watching them. We’re on them.
Julie: We're glad that you guys are watching them and you can report back to us on what's going on overseas in Spain. Let’s move on to topic number three. So, I really was sort of torn about whether there should be a burn pile thing, but I think in light of what's happened at ESPN recently, it’s sort of an important topic. So, we all know that a ton of people got laid off at ESPN a couple of weeks ago. That was a really bad day, if you work in sports media, to see people getting laid off, people whose work you admire; and then seeing other people cheering it on, as if this is some kind of celebration.
But you know, one of the things that is sort of on my mind this week is the way that women are self-censoring themselves in media these days, even more than previously, because everyone is trying so hard to fly under the radar and keep their job and not rock the boat. And I was thinking about it when I was thinking about the Sports Emmy's and how so many women were upset by how few women were nominated for that and how it was mostly just, you know, older men who got the nominations. And I know a lot of women in the industry – and probably some fairly big names that would surprise people – complained very vociferously in private about the Sports Emmy’s, but then, you know, later, everyone's excited to go to the Sports Emmy's and posting Instagram shots of themselves going.
So, it just sort of…You know, I don't want to criticize anyone for the way they handle or the way they navigate this industry, because we're all doing the best we can. At the same time though, I feel like there's really becoming this thing where women complain in private, but then support whatever they're complaining about in public. And so those that do complain and speak out are just sort of left kind of twisting in the wind. And I wonder how you guys feel about that.
Stacey: Well, I think that there's this real reality that if you portray yourself as somebody who is – major scare quotes – “difficult,” right? That you won't get work. And I think that is a fear. And I think in some senses, you know, as somebody who's worked in media, I know that behind the scenes in media, I know it's a reality. So I think that a lot of people who are precariously employed or freelancers or people who are afraid of layoffs often are afraid to speak out about issues because they are worried they're not gonna be able to pay their rent and they're not gonna be able to fill their fridge, right? So I think that that's a reality, but you're absolutely right in the sense that it does leave people who do speak out about these issues in a situation where they feel unsupported.
Jessica: I'm with you. It's so hard to criticize how one navigates this, right? Anyone who's a minority in a space. And as we say repeatedly, like, sports media, I always say, it's the whitest and malest of the bunch, right? It's something like 90% white men. So, what would be really useful is if some of those men would grow some backbones and actually be the ones to lead on this discussion, right? Like, they are really the ones who are going to move anything forward – which sucks. That is just a really hard thing to come to terms with. And I'm with you on the pushing forward and doing the criticizing and making it clear that we're not okay with this, if we feel like we have the space to do that and we can risk that with our jobs. Honestly, we need these men to step up and do the right thing and have a voice, because that's gonna be the end of it, right? That’s when it's going to change.
Stacey: Because it always seems to be when a man steps up and says something, it's like a huge round of applause, like a standing ovation. [laughs] So I'm like, why don't you guys just say something? Because everybody will love you for a few days!
Julie: Right. Lindsay?
Lindsay: It just comes down to: the people who still have the most power in this industry are still really conservative, straight white men, right? And anything that kind of goes against that is a little bit of a risk. And that is true, despite what Fox Sports personalities would like you to believe about the “liberal sports media.” We know that it seems that the jobs are disappearing. I mean, there was another round of layoffs at Sports Illustrated this week. It’s getting more and more precarious, not less so, as it seems the positions are going down. And look, I mean, you got any person of color, particularly, and then you have women and then you have the LGBT community. I mean, this is a really…It’s scary out there.
And I know. I would be lying if I said that I hadn't held back a little bit from criticizing someone or given someone the benefit benefit of the doubt because I have a good job now, but you never know what's next. And you know, these people have power within the industry. And maybe I like the majority of what they do, but I have a problem with this one thing. And I've thought twice about it. I mean, I like to think I'm usually pretty direct and pretty free to do that. But it's not always the case, and it's scary out there. And ultimately the people who still have power, that's where we need to get the diversity. And as Jess said, I think that the way that that's going to happen is for the other people with the most power and job security to speak up and demand it.
Julie: All right, moving on to the next topic. Lindsay and Jessica were in a piece this week in Media Matters. And Shireen, you were talking about this in our group chat earlier. Do you want to tell us about it?
Shireen: Thank you, Julie. Yeah, I just wanted to recognize the phenomenal work of Jess and Lindsay, because I quote it all the time and I consider them industry experts. I think that what I felt was like another state of sports media piece that came out and it focused on how it covers sexual violence – and the piece is good, and it's quoting Diana Moskovitz and Jess and Lindsay, and two of our co-hosts, but it doesn't actually include any voices of color. And this is problematic, because this has to stop happening. And they were mentioned in the piece, and we know that there's a couple of really amazing women that do this. A few. I mean, there's not a lot of people who actually write about sexualized violence in sport and, you know, to try to maintain that. But I think the optics is also that everything had just sort of made it feel…I was uncomfortable with that. Although I appreciate the work tremendously. I think that, you know, this just needs to stop happening, and people should be more aware of that.
Julie: Jess or Lindsay, do you guys want to weigh in?
Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, look, this is a systemic problem. And I think that that's something that I, as a white woman, need to do a much better job at lifting up the voices and the work of women of color and encouraging it and in trying to make more of it. And yeah, I just want to say that I agree, that the optics were were bad. But it's not just this piece, and it's not just this one thing. If it was, then it wouldn't be a problem, right? The reality is that women of color are the most marginalized in this space that already incredibly marginalizes women and people of color. And it’s horrible, and I need to do a better job, and we can all do a better job at using whatever voice and whatever power that we have to improve that and to make it better. And I think it's especially true in athletics, because so many athletes are people of color.
Julie: I just wanted to say that, talking about the optics of it, that they also in the picture they used gave Lindsay this fantastic bright purple lipstick, and then gave Jessica sort of a pink overall sheen, and I'm not sure what exactly…I’m joking, you guys! This is a joke. You all look so serious. I just thought it was like, why is Lindsay the only one wearing lipstick? And like, oh, Jessica is kind of a lovely blush rosé sort of color. I don't remember what they did with Diana, but it gave me a little giggle when I looked at it.
Lindsay: I'm not going to lie, I thought the Photoshop job…I thought I looked fabulous. So, you know, [Julie laughs] I had no clue that they were going to lead this piece with photos of us, or even that it was going to be a piece about us. I thought it was, when did the interview, that it was about the study they had just did. So I had no idea that they were going to present it in this way. But listen, I might have to get me some purple lipstick, is all I'm saying.
Julie: Jessica, you want to get us back on track?
Jessica: Yeah. I just wanted to actually pinpoint…I want to point this back to Shireen. Shireen, don't you keep a list of women of color in sports media? Is there a good way to access that list that we can tell the people listening to this? Because, I mean, it’s something that I reference. You know, there's certain Twitter lists of women in sports that I'll go through. We have a Facebook group, I'll go through that to look for people. But I know you specifically have created a document that eases this, that should make it easier to find women of color in sports media.
Shireen: Yeah, I did. Thank you. It's actually just a Google doc I created of women or those who identify as women or non binary who are people of color. And I think that it's helpful. However, that being said, they're not necessarily specifically those who write about sexualized violence, which is a much more specific thing. But I know that Kavitha Davidson's on there and Jemele Hill is on there. So, I mean, there are some, there's this wonderful breadth and array of women. Like, basically a smorgasbord of everything, every range of sports and topic, and I'm happy to share it
In fact, I will put it on our Facebook. I'll post the document, the link to the document, on our Facebook page for Burn It All Down, the podcast. I would be really happy to share that document link. It's just a Google doc. And I'd be happy to post it onto our Facebook page, the podcast Facebook page. It needs to be updated, so I'm also very happy if people see or know somebody, they can message me or tweet me and say, can you please add this? It's not an open document, because I don't want people being erased either, or changes being made. I just like to add people. I never delete anyone. So, I'd be happy to do that. Thanks, Jess.
Julie: Okay, moving on. It is time for this week's burn pile, where we throw a bunch of things that we hate in and set them all on fire. Who's got first with the burn pile this week?
Jessica: I do. This is Jessica. I'll go first. I'm gonna call out Frank Clark, the defensive end for the Seattle Seahawks, which means that if he ever hears about this, I might get a mean tweet. This week, Natalie Weiner – I hope I'm saying your name correctly, Natalie. She's a writer at Bleacher Report. She posted a two year old link to a piece she wrote about Clark while she was also tweeting about something she wrote about Greg Hardy this week, and Clark wrote her on Twitter very publicly to say, “People like you don't have long careers in your field. I have a job for you cleaning my fish tank when that little job is over,” and tagged her. And, you know, she got the Twitter hate that we like to hear about.
Frank Clark, for those who don't know, he's defensive end at Seattle. When he was drafted two years ago by the Seahawks, he was still under charges for domestic violence. He eventually pled those down, as many, many people do – so, I think maybe to like a disorderly conduct or something to that effect. Yeah, he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in a deal with the prosecutors, though the police have said to this day that they disagree with what ended up happening because of the severity of what he did in that case.
So here he is, out, you know, going after a female sports writer very publicly on social media. He has since apologized. He now understands the seriousness of the subject – quote, “I want to apologize to Natalie Weiner for letting my emotions get the best of me about comments made toward my personal life and family. I have worked hard over the last two years to do right, not only for myself but for my family as well. I'll continue on this path on and off the field.”
You know, this idea that she made comments about “my personal life and family” – which was literally, like, she linked to a piece that wrote about his very public charges for domestic violence a couple of years ago. The whole way that this man has handled this is disgusting, and Seattle has really demurred…I mean, they apparently pulled him in to the office to yell at him about this. But, you know, it reads like all this is just a PR mess for them. So, I'm going to throw this right onto the burn pile. I'd like to never see something like this happen again. This was disgusting.
Shireen: Torch it, light it up. earn it.
Brenda: Burn it, burn.
Lindsay: Burn! Alright. I want to talk about Ion Țiriac and Ilie Năstase, whose name I always have trouble pronouncing; talking about the Romanian tennis men in power. If you don't remember – and I think we discussed this a little bit last week, although all my weeks have blurred together – you've got Năstase, who was a tennis legend, was the captain of the Fed Cup team for Romania, which is kind of the World Cup equivalent for tennis, but not held all at once. It’s spread out. That's way too complicated for me to explain right now. All you need to know is that he was the captain, which is essentially the coach, of a women's team at this event.
He hit on the other captain, who is a pregnant and married woman – publicly, multiple times. He said derogatory things towards the other competitors, including…I believe he also made a racist comment about Serena Williams’ baby. “Is she going to be…” Something about chocolate milk. I don't know. It was not good. And then he also attacked a female reporter for reporting on the things he said, verbally attacked her. And that all happened within a span of like two days of last month. He was provisionally suspended from the International Tennis Federation, which is the governing body of tennis that takes care of the Fed Cup and the Davis Cup and the grand slams. And there is an ongoing investigation.
Well, where did Năstase show up this week, but presenting the winner's trophy at the Mutua Madrid Open to female tennis players? To Simona Halep, who is Romanian, and this was in Madrid, Spain. And here he is, less than a month after being suspended for sexist and racist comments, presenting a trophy to the winner of one of the biggest women's tennis tournaments on the calendar. And the only reason he was allowed to do this was because Ion Țiriac is the owner of the Madrid tournament. And Ion Țiriac is another Romanian who has also said…Last year, he said that he didn't think the women brought much to the game of tennis, but they did have beautiful legs.
And again, this is the owner of one of the biggest women's tennis tournaments in the world. And apparently, from what I've heard from reporters on site, a lot of the other staff at the tournament were trying to keep Țiriac not to let Năstase present this trophy because obviously the optics of it are very, very bad. But Țiriac would not relent. Thankfully the WTA, Steve Simon, the CEO of the WTA, released a very scathing statement talking about how inappropriate this was.
But look, this goes back to the point I was talking about earlier, where these who have power in sports are still predominantly these old, rich white men who really don't care about this. This is an extreme example, but it's really depressing. And look, tennis is a sport that gets touted as being the most progressive in so many ways – thanks to the work that Billie Jean King did decades ago. And yet you still have incidents like this. You're still dealing with things like this. I mean, it was a phenomenal final between Simona Halep and Kristina Mladenovic, and then to have this cast a shadow over it is appalling. So I'm putting them on the burn pile, Țiriac and Năstase.
Julie: All right. Shireen's up next, with an assist from Brenda.
Shireen: I love how that sounds. And this is gonna…I think we might just want to permanently add FIFA to the burn pile. This is my personal opinion. [Julie laughs] That being said, there had been a FIFA…Tokyo Sexwale had actually started a group to research a complaint that was made by the Palestinian Football Federation that some Israeli national league teams were on occupied land. And that was actually against the tenets of the FIFA charter. So, they headed up a whole committee and it took I think over a year, and they came back with a finding that they couldn't comment on it, which is very typical of FIFA and how they waste money. And they took it off the agenda, and it's super problematic because it's causing…I mean, I'm not sure why FIFA thinks they need to disengage because clearly this is written in their constitution. It's written in the rules and right for players, for, you know, freedom of playing and safety and mobility, and that doesn't happen. And they can't ignore it because it's so obvious.
So, there’s so many things that we can talk about. We can talk about how they sort of wash over what they need to be doing and they address it…I mean, the fact that they actually annihilated their anti-racism committee was ridiculous, to be able to say that…You know, that will forever be burning in the background for me, forever and ever and ever. I just throw lighter fluid on it every once in a while. The fact that they got rid of it – as if to say racism is all done! And we know from Sulley Muntari this week it's far from done, far from done. At every level – UEFA, Serie A, like anywhere. Racism is not over, FIFA, sorry. And neither is corruption and political disarray. What a disaster. Just torch it. Bren?
Lindsay: Run.
Brenda: Yeah. Just to add fuel to your flame, Shireen, what happened this week too supposedly was sparked by a call from Netanyahu to Infantino, and one of the things…So, Infantino is the president of FIFA. And basically what you see unfolding is that is because Israel has played for UEFA it's not in the Asia Confederation. And so UEFA is in this position where it puts an inordinate amount of power onto FIFA, and at the same time it isn't in the Confederation where Israel should be.
My mind goes back to, in terms of intersectionality, the Palestinian women's team captain, the national team, Honey Thaljieh, who has worked for FIFA on this issue for so many years, and to see the Palestinian teams take this sort of hit, you know, that now the West Bank clubs are not going to be sanctioned in any way. Israel's not going to be sanctioned in any way for having these clubs play. It is not only a racist issue, which it absolutely is, but it's also a feminist issue because Palestinian women have been trying very hard within FIFA to find a space for themselves, and and it's really getting shut down by this decision – this decision, which is a no decision. So, burn it. Burn it. Burn FIFA.
Shireen: And just to add, Infantino had a Trump-esque moment this week, when he came out – Infantino being the head of FIFA – came out and was telling everybody that he felt that the facts were not aligned properly. I mean, he didn't actually quote Conway, but he was sort of alluding to the fact that he was being unfairly treated by media and they were convoluting the story or that the facts, which I thought was really interesting. I saw a tweet out there of someone saying, uh oh, Infantino's going Trump! Which is very possible.
Brenda: Barf and burn.
Shireen: Yeah. Barf and burn.
Julie: All right, Stacey, what do we need to burn in MLB this week?
Stacey: So, mine's a little light actually. But this week there's been a lot of discussion around how the MLB promotes things to women and to expand their audience – they’re losing an audience that is made up mostly of older white men. So, they're trying to expand, and this week there was a promotion in which they're giving away a replica world series ring. And the tagline was, “You like baseball. She likes jewelry. It's a win-win.” So, that obviously did not get a very good reception on the internet, and the tweet was immediately…I think it was deleted within an hour.
You know, my immediate reaction to it was kind of like, it's almost comical because it's so lazy. Like, it's just so…We’ve had these conversations so many times, and it's just amazing to me that, you know, nobody in the marketing department was like, that's probably a bad idea! But I think the bigger thing is that there's a lot of discussion around Mother's Day. The MLB is very connected to…It does a lot of promotion around Mother's Day. All of the players wear pink on Mother's Day weekend. And there is a breast cancer tie-in.
I think there's a lot of things to talk about in terms of how the only time Major League Baseball talks about, promotes, celebrates women is on Mother's Day. And I have no problem with the incredible work they do around breast cancer, but I'm just wishing it wasn't the only thing that was tied to women. So, I'm not into the Mother's Day promotion and I'm definitely not into the Cardinals’ suggestion that we love jewelry and not baseball. So that's my burn it down for the week. [laughs]
Julie: That's a good one, Stacey. I totally agree with that. They’re equating, first of all, all female fans with being mothers, and with being sick. And to me, it's just such a bizarre way to celebrate women, which is what they think they're doing. I'll just add, I mentioned the Sports Emmy's earlier, and I'll just throw them on the burn pile. Their list of nominations came out about a month ago, and it was ridiculous. If you looked at this thing, you would have no idea that were even women in sports media on television. So, the fact that they continue, whoever chooses who gets nominated and who wins the Sports Emmy’s…There’s women out there too, and you should watch their shows, because a lot of them are really talented. It was a pretty bad list of aging, mostly white men. So, burn it.
Stacey: So they all like baseball then. [laughs]
Julie: Yeah, pretty much. [laughs] Burn it!
Brenda: Burn it!
Julie: Badass, who’s up?
Brenda: Okay. So I have a bunch of badasses for the week, which is the AEM girls team from Madrid. And it got a lot of play. We could put the link up on Facebook because it's a feel good story for those of us who care about girls, which I hope it's everyone. And basically they had dominated the local Madrid barrio scene of girls' soccer. And after some years, their coach finally got them into a boys’ league. And at the time they were ridiculed; they played two seasons, which were winning seasons. And then this year, the third one, they won the league that they had been criticized and ridiculed for joining. It is a case of don’t you dare read the comments if you want to feel good. So, any of the articles about it, please, please, please don’t.
The one thing I would say is that there is a super sweet quote from a boy that says, “It’s hard to lose to girls, but these girls are really good.” So it was sort of precious, and we want to tip our hats to those girls and their coaches and their system of support – their fans, their families, for doing it. And for the media for featuring it, despite the comments.
Julie: Awesome. I love it. Shireen, you've got an honorable mention?
Shireen: I do. I actually found the story and I really loved it. There's the woman named Sarya Khumalo, who is the first African woman to summit Everest. And I think it’s really fascinating. She was actually in the United States, and she explains the story to Vice sports that came out this week, how they were saying she actually…It was very poignant when I read that part. She said that somebody said to her, “You haven't climbed Kilimanjaro.” And she was like, whoa, I need to climb Kilimanjaro! And then she started climbing. And it's just a wonderful story because predominantly within the world of climbing – I've done a little bit of work on this and follow it a bit – you don't often see African women doing this, and I think this is great. It's a wonderful story. And I'm really happy it was featured.
Lindsay: I just want to shout out Lanesha Reagan. She’s a volleyball player for Oregon State, who opened up on mental illness in a wonderful profile by Mirin Fader. I'm sure I'm butchering your name and I apologize. But it was a wonderful story on espnW. It is mental health awareness week, and I think that the more athletes that speak up about this – and I think this is something maybe we can go into more detail on next week – but the better. Thank you.
Jessica: Yeah. I just want to…We’re recording this on Mother's Day in the US, and I just want to give a shout out to the ladies who are athletes and also moms, because we have two different things that happen in society. We tell women that have babies, and once they've gone through the physical carrying of pregnancy and then labor and delivery that they can’t do it again, that they can't be good on the other side of it. And then of course, just all this sort of systemic things in our culture that make it hard to be a mom and continue your career. So, I just want to give a shoutout to all the ladies that are out there being athletes and doing their thing while also being moms.
Julie: All right. That is it for us this week. Burn It All Down lives on SoundCloud, but, good news! You can now listen to us on iTunes, TuneIn, and Stitcher. So we hope that you'll do that and leave us lots of good ratings and reviews and everything else. You can also follow us on Twitter @burnitdownpod and on Facebook at facebook.com/burnitalldownpod. Thanks for joining us this week. For Jessica Luther, Lindsay Gibbs, Brenda Elsey, Shireen Ahmed, Stacey May Fowles – I'm Julie DiCaro, and we'll talk to you next week.