Episode 236: The NFL's Riveting, Awful and Icky Lead Up to Super Bowl LVI
In this episode Jessica Luther, Amira Rose Davis and Lindsay Gibbs talk all things NFL. But first, they share their favorite Winter Olympic moments from the weekend. Then they dive into the most recent NFL mess, including Brian Flores' class action lawsuit against the league, sexual harassment in the Washington football team, the playoffs rollercoaster and Super Bowl LVI predictions between the Cincinnati Bengals and L.A. Rams.
Following this discussion, you'll hear a preview of Amira's interview with Shalise Manza Young, Yahoo sports columnist and former Patriots beat reporter on the NFL. Next, the team burns the worst of the sports this week on The Burn Pile. Then, they lift up those making sports better, including Torchbearers of the Week, the NWSL's CBA agreement and WNBA $75 million capital raise. They wrap up the show with what's good in their lives and what they are watching in sports this week.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Jessica: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. I'm Jessica, and today I'm joined by Lindsay and Amira. On this week's show, we’re going to be talking about the NFL, which has had some of its more entertaining weeks of football recently, but it's also a league still rife with discrimination. We will talk about all of it. Then we'll burn the things that deserve to be burned, highlight the torchbearers who are giving us hope, let you know what's good in our worlds, and tell you what we're watching this week.
But before we get into that, I want to talk about this first weekend of the Olympics. I personally had one of those great spectator Olympic moments where yesterday I found myself watching a replay of the men's 5000m speed skating final. And I got incredibly invested in a sport I know nothing about, never watched, never heard of these people before. But it came down to the final skate, the pair that were going, and the Swedish guy…I know everything about his backstory, Nils van der Poel. He was going for it. He had the world record.
But this Dutch guy had just skated the Olympic record, and he was nervous on the sideline. They have to, I don't know, they do like 12 and a half laps or something. The Swedish guy, he was behind by like two seconds – which, apparently you just cannot overcome two seconds in speed skating. And then in the last three laps, he fucking did. And I was screaming on my couch as this man won the gold medal for Sweden. I just love stuff like that. Amira, do you have anything that you watched and loved over the weekend?
Amira: You know me, I watch everything at like 3:00am, so I watched all 1 hour and 20 minutes of the cross-country skiing. [laughs] And I was like, I'm going to turn this off in two minutes, because it had just started. And they were like, it will be an hour long, over an hour long. And I watched all of it. [Jessica laughs] What I loved the most was definitely women's snowboarding and watching Zoi Sadowski-Synnott win gold.
Jessica: Incredible.
Amira: It wasn't just like the incredible run in her final jump, but it was like the glee in which all of them were hugging each other. Like, I was texting Jess, like, I was like, “I'm sobbing!”Just like, the medalists were hugging each other, and Jess was like, wait until the full group hug! And all the competitors were like mobbing each other. But the other thing, if you haven't listened to the interview that Zoi's dad did right after she won, it was beautiful.
Interviewer: Right now, your daughter has just become the first Kiwi to win a Winter gold, ever.
Sean Synnott: I’m pretty fucking excited, to be honest.
Amira: He’s clearly very happy and very intoxicated and just was like dropping F-bombs everywhere. And it was delightful.
Jessica: New Zealand's first gold medal at the Winter Olympics too. So, historic moment for that country. Lindsay, what did you get into this weekend?
Lindsay: Like Amira and Jess, I've just been getting into sports that I didn’t really think even a week ago that I would care about, you know, it's just shocking how easily the Olympics suck me in. I've been loving the figure skating team competition, but I have to say, watching big air…It's a death wish! I mean, they skate like backwards or sideways down the steepest ramp I've ever seen, and then go up this thing and do all these spins, and then like sometimes they land backwards on purpose! [Jessica laughs] And like one of the skiers, when she landed, one of her skis came off during the landing and she still stuck the landing, but they deducted points because her ski came off! And that made me very, very angry!
Jessica: Because what skill!
Lindsay: It was way more impressive than landing on both skis! Landing just on one ski? Oh my gosh. So anyways, I was just kind of observing how, you know, I mean, I'm always in awe watching the Summer Olympics, but it's a different level of awe watching the Winter Olympics because every single sport looks like it should be killing you.
Jessica: Yeah. It’s like a survival. [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah. And so it's just kind of a different level of awe, but I've been loving it, and I look forward to more.
Jessica: I'll just say one thing about the Swedish speed skater that I know everything about now. He is so funny to me in that every time I've seen him interviewed or I've read an interview with him, he talks about how much speed skating sucks [laughter] and how it's the hardest thing ever. And after he won, NBC was interviewing him, and they're like, did you know that you could be this good? Like, that you could actually win the gold medal in the 5k? And I think he holds the world record in the 10k as well. And he basically said, yeah, like four years ago, I knew I could win the 10k, what I needed to do to win the 10k, but it's hard. And I just didn't want to do it. I was like, wow. I really relate to this athlete. [laughs]
Amira: While he trained, he also was like, sky diving! And he was talking about how he was rewarding himself. And one of the things he rewarded himself with was doing 20 ultras. [laughs] I was like, good, sir, that is why you're an Olympian! Because is not a reward.
Jessica: Yeah. He is such a character.
Lindsay: Oh my god. One of the things I saw was the relay for the short track speed skating!
Jessica: Oh, bonkers.
Lindsay: And honestly, it was the most chaotic thing I've ever…Like, short track? Just one race is ridiculous, but there are four races going on at the same time! And then if one country whips out, like, it whips out all competition! [laughs] Oh my god! They have knives on their feet. I just will never understand that.
Jessica: Super Bowl LVI, between the Cincinnati Bengals and the LA Rams, is this weekend. And the last two weeks of playoffs leading up to the big game have been, I cannot lie, exciting. Personally, I’ve basically given up on the sport of American football altogether. But even I found myself riveted and watching and really enjoying these playoffs. And then I felt bad about it, because I felt like that meant the NFL was winning, I guess, the PR battle for people's hearts. But then in the week after the conference championships, the NFL reminded us all why we don't want it to be winning.
So, let's start this discussion about this league with Brian Flores, the former head coach of the Miami Dolphins, who has filed a class action lawsuit against the league, the Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, and the Denver Broncos for racial discrimination. There's plenty to say about this – lots that we've said repeatedly on the show already – but Lindsay, let's start by talking about the owner of the Dolphins, Stephen Ross, and like how far his actual tentacles go here.
Lindsay: Yes. So, Stephen Ross is the founder of this organization called RISE, that’s essentially an organization creating a nation unified through sports, committed to racial equity and social justice. This organization started like five, six years ago, and it’s one of those platforms that a lot of sports leagues have partnered with as a way to say, look, we're doing our diversity, equity and inclusion work. I first profiled this company back when it was working with NASCAR, and I don't even know if it still is working with NASCAR. But when I was with ThinkProgress, I was reporting on diversity issues and NASCAR. And I remember having all these phone calls with people at RISE and at NASCAR, and nobody could tell me exactly what they were doing, you know what I mean? [laughs] Like, it was like, yes, we're partnered together. Yes, this is a groundbreaking partnership. But like, couldn't give any sort of exact things.
And, you know, technically RISE says – this is from the NFL website – it says that, “RISE, in less than five years, has powered more than 110 sports partners, 12,000 students, athletes, coaches, and staff at all levels with the tools to be leaders in eliminating racial discrimination, championing social justice, and improving race relations.” Once again, a lot of buzzwords. But Stephen Ross, once again, the founder, has committed $30 million – which, of course he's a billionaire, so like that's not that much money overall to this organization. And he's also though gave money to Trump's inaugural committee way back when. So there's been a long history of Stephen Ross kind of propping up this organization and then behind the scenes doing very, very questionable things.
I also, I'm sorry, I just saw this quote that I have to read. Troy Vincent, NFL executive vice-president of football operations. This was after Stephen Ross committed $13 million more to RISE. He said, “During this time of unrest, many individuals have stepped up to being part of the solution. Stephen continues to dedicate his time, resources, and vision, as he has for decades, in an unwavering commitment to ending racism, in partnership with the leadership, heart and influence of athletes globally.” This is the best part: “Stephen's words are backed by his actions!–” [laughs] [Jessica groans] “–demonstrated by his body of work, to advance equality, respect and understanding as a leader in the national dialogue on race and social justice.”
To me, it just goes to show, like, we can't let these billionaires start these organizations and just use them as a way to point to something and say, look, I'm not racist! Or, you know, I'm not sexist. But guess what? There's no sign that these organizations actually do anything. And everyone partnered with RISE, especially after this report, really needs to do some digging. I think the NWSL even has a partnership with RISE right now. So like, no. [laughs]
Jessica: Yeah, because his team is being sued for racial discrimination. And it's so interesting, because we've talked a lot about Black coaches and the NFL and racial discrimination on this show. And it's interesting that Flores chose a class action lawsuit, that he's like, “I am not alone here. This is systemic. This is bigger than just me.” Linz, is there an indication that it's not going to just be Flores alone?
Lindsay: Hue Jackson has said that he might join the lawsuit as well, saying that when he was working with the Browns, that owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized them to tank – not with like direct payments, but there was some sort of backroom deal where if everyone commits to this four year plan of sucking, like, you know, we will reward those involved. It's just such bullshit, because you know, we say all the time that Black coaches often get hired to run the worst teams, right? And get blamed when they don't immediately fix it. And so this whole incentivizing Black coaches to fail just seems extra icky to me, knowing how hard it is to get them jobs and knowing how much them having a losing record will impact the rest of their career far more tangibly than white coaches, because Black coaches aren't given second chances. So, it's just, the whole thing is icky to me.
Jessica: Amira, historian that's here today, give us some history.
Amira: Let's just get a few things straight. One, this is kind of apt that we bring up RISE, because the board of directors for RISE, you have a NBA, MLS, PGA. You also have Mark Emmert representing the NCAA. I say this because I want to be clear about something. This conversation we're having about the dearth of Black coaches in football mirrors the conversation that we've had about it in every other professional league. Brenda has given the numbers for MLS and NWSL. We just talked, what, a few weeks ago, about college coaches. I wrote a piece about the dearth of Black women coaches in basketball, woefully underrepresented. And in men's ball too, that remains to be the case.
So, it's not just the big bad NFL. It's even in leagues that like to pretend they're super progressive. “There's a pipeline problem.” There's a pipeline problem because people at their core refuse to see leadership, quality, strategic thinking, and all of these ideas about who can coach and who can lead a team actually manifested with Black people. Even former athletes, right? They're like, well, you were good to entertain us and play, but that stops when we think about your mind. People coming in from outside the sport face familiar questions about like, well, what do you possibly know about the game if you haven't played? A familiar refrain we know is used to keep women out of the game. But also to Black folks who weren't athletes, right?
But if you just happen to be a coach's son, of which there's many, who now have positions in the NFL, right? There's a pipeline for you. And I bring this larger conversation up because it is a broken record as this conversation is going. We had this back on Black Monday. I can't remember if it was a segment or a burn pile, but it was there because we have it every year. And of course we have that in conjunction with talking about the Rooney Rule. And you just mentioned, Jess and Lindsay, about the possibility of Hue Jackson joining this in terms of a class action lawsuit. And I think it's important to remember the origins of the Rooney Rule itself.
If you remember back 2003, when Tony Dungy and Dennis Green were both fired from their head coaching positions, despite having playoff appearances and wins and, you know, all the things. It corresponded with a study that was done by famed lawyer Johnnie Cochran, as well as civil rights attorney Cyrus Mehri. And they did a report, in conjunction with Dr. Janice Madden, that gave us data, much like data that we have churned out in every year since, which showed Black coaches won more games per season, they were more likely to take their teams to the playoffs, they continually outperformed their white counterparts – because they had to, as Lindsay mentioned – they got less second chances, easier to be let go of.
I mean, that's what we’re…If you recall what I talked about with Flores, he's the first person to get winning seasons for the Dolphins since I was a freshman in high school, right? Like, we're talking about success that they're having, with a much shorter margin for error. The results of these studies combined with these lawyers were presented at a press conference, and caught the attention of a few people, in particular a former NFL player named John Wooten who worked in the front offices at the time. And they put a commission together for diversity, but it was also with a thinly veiled threat about a class action lawsuit. And the NFL's response to this, to make this go away, was to partner on these diversity efforts, which led to the creation and implementation of the Rooney Rule.
The Rooney Rule itself is a shield to the threat of a class action lawsuit, because the numbers about discrimination were provable then and are provable now. That remains a threat today, and I think that you can see that one of the things that made this lawsuit so explosive when it came out was that it was happening against the backdrop of more and more white coaches filling the vacancies that were open in this coaching cycle. And so it felt like every day there was another announcement about another hire that again was a white man. Now, I talk more about Flores, the lawsuit and the kind of intricacies with this in the interview coming out on Thursday with Shalise Manza Young from Yahoo Sports.
But I just wanted to mention a development that happened this weekend, which was that Mike McDaniel was hired. In a tweet from Schefter, who said he's “the first multi-racial minority coach hired in this cycle,” which made a lot of people immediately go, huh? Like, because he's very, very fair-skinned. And so the discourse for the last 24 hours has been about, is he sufficiently Black to check off that box. I've seen his parents' wedding pictures at this point on my timeline, to verify that his dad's side of the family is Black, even though I think it was a surprise to many people. And then there's incentives about like making diverse hires. So now there's like the joke where, instead of getting the full incentive, you should get half of it. And now it's just dissolved into really awful race science stuff. [laughs]
But I do just want to say that the remaining vacancy is with that dreaded Houston Texans job, who…The Texans seemed dead set continuously still on hiring Josh McCown, who has never coached, ever, at any level. And the other person who is a finalist for that job, of course, is Brian Flores. And so that's certainly one area to watch. But with this lawsuit kind of going on and as people are picking up the possibility of joining it and data continues to come out kind of proving its point, I think this is not nearly the last we'll hear of this. And maybe for the first time we'll move the needle of the conversation forward instead of just regurgitating it each year.
Jessica: Yeah. Thank you, Amira. That's so interesting, because a lot of Flores' lawsuit is about the sham Rooney Rule interviews, right? Like, talk about a shield. It exists and then they just do a sham job. Let's shift to the Washington NFL team, which I just feel like anytime you mentioned it, it's just like, you know we're talking about something embarrassing and bad. But this week they announced their new name, finally, the Commanders which…Not great, [laughter] not great, but not racist, so, you know, they had literally the lowest bar possible. [laughs]
Amira: The bar is the basement.
Jessica: It's buried 20 feet under the basement, and they did manage to step over it. But that was actually not the most important story about Washington this past week. Lindsay, please catch us up.
Lindsay: Okay. Trigger warning. Skip ahead a couple of minutes if you want to avoid this. There will be details of sexual harassment. So, this week there was a congressional committee hearing about what's going on at the toxic workplace culture at the Washington Commanders, I guess, front office. If you will remember, the Washington Post did an investigation report last year, and that led the NFL to commission a big investigation. And then the results of that really were not released. And Daniel Snyder, owner of the team, basically got a slap on the wrist. And now there's a lot of calls to release the full report, please. Which, just some context that will be important in a moment: the Washington team and the NFL has said that it was an oral report only. Like, it was a presentation, not a written…You know, so there's nothing that they can release. Convenient.
Anyways, basically things got so bad that Congress decided to investigate, and there was a hearing. Most of the stuff that came out had already been reported by the Washington Post. But one of those nuggets was Tiffani Johnston, former marketing and events coordinator for the team, told the congressional committee that she was strategically placed next to Snyder at a work dinner, not to discuss business, but to allow him to place his hand on her thigh under the table.
Her quote was, “I learned that job survival meant I should continue my conversation with another coworker rather than call out Dan Snyder in the moment. I also learned later that evening how to awkwardly laugh when Dan Snyder aggressively pushed me toward his limo with his hand on my lower back, encouraging me to ride with him in the car. I learned how to continue to say no, even though a situation was getting more awkward, uncomfortable, and physical. I learned that the only reason Snyder removed his hand from my back and stop pushing me towards the limo was because his attorney intervened and said, Dan, Dan, this is a bad idea, a very bad idea. I learned that I should remove myself from Dan's grip while his attorney was distracting him.”
Jessica: Whoa.
Lindsay: First of all, just all the kudos to Tiffani Johnston to come forward with these allegations publicly. To testify on this behalf has to be incredibly difficult, and just want to send her our love and support and hope that she's getting it personally as well. But obviously this is horrific. And Dan Snyder denies it, but it's just…How much stuff does this guy have to deny, right? Like, there's a whole fucking forest fire. It's not smoke right now, right? Like, everything is on fire. And a couple of other important things that came out during the congressional hearing, which one of the representatives from Illinois said that this morning they released two key documents. The first shows that Beth Wilkinson, who did the investigation for the NFL, was hired to write a report. But as we know, the NFL changed that plan.
So, they have the document that says she was hired to actually do a written report, but then the NFL canceled that. So it was only a presentation. Not sketchy at all. And then also it shows that the Washington team and the NFL agreed to pursue a joint legal strategy, raising serious doubts about the NFL's commitment to independence and transparency in investigating the team. And also, the NFL might not be able to publicly release the findings of its internal investigation without the explicit permission of Dan Snyder, because of this agreement. So, it's just all really, really terrible.
And, you know, I was going to originally talk about how Kevin Blackistone, we love, you know, wrote a great piece about how like using this militarized imagery of the Commanders to kind of, as he put it, put deodorant over the racism, was really, really shitty. But at this point, like, that's way down at the bottom of the list. Like, I don't even have the brain power to talk about it. Although I did think it was telling that someone pointed out that their colors are red and yellow and they can be called the Commies. So, I did love that. [laughter]
Jessica: Yeah, let's definitely do that. Everything that's come out around how this quote-unquote “investigation” was handled and the deal between the NFL and Snyder is just so egregiously bad. And it is one of these moments where it's like, what has to happen for this man to no longer be an owner in this league? And I honestly don't know the answer to that question at this point, which feels wild. But these owners are bad. [laughs] Like, so many of them are bad people. I don't know what else to take from this.
Amira: Yeah. That's also why I saw a few people, including folks on that lawsuit, being like, yeah, this is why when the NFL is going to promise an investigation into what Flores is saying, that nobody trusts it, because it's all a sham. And I think that especially this one with Snyder was instructive, because we saw that the biggest person with any sort of accountability coming out of this was like Jon Gruden. And then the NFL was like, “We did something!” And it's like, that's not even the thing. Like, that wasn't the thing. And I feel like with Flores, you kind of see that same blueprint, you know, open to possibilities, where it becomes like, oh, we'll do one unrelated thing to the complaint and then wrap it up like it's over, despite that people who've talked about harm are still just sitting there waiting for any sort of acknowledgement of that.
Jessica: Yes. And I think this is where I am struggling right now with the NFL, because the thing I want to do right now is pivot to talking about what's happened on the field. And like, I feel weird doing this in this moment. But what's been on the field, you're like, this is why people buy in. This is why people are still with this league. So, with the playoffs, the end of the season really just in general was pretty great when it comes to sport. So, this is the first NFL season with 18 weeks, which is why the Super Bowl is a week later. So if you're feeling weird that there's something off of the schedule, you're right. The Super Bowl is a week later this year.
Week 18 ended with the Raiders beating the Chargers in overtime. Even if they had tied, both teams would've made it into the playoffs, so there was like all this drama around that. Then we had a not great first week of the playoffs, lots of blow outs, but then the divisional playoffs, Kansas City versus Buffalo Bills, Bengals versus Tennessee Titans, 49ers versus the Packers, Rams versus the Bucks. Lots of articles written about that weekend were titled something like “greatest playoff weekend ever.” All four games were decided on the final play that broke a tie score. Did you all think that this was the greatest playoff weekend ever? I mean, I was riveted, and I didn't care about any of these people.
Lindsay: I was so glad I didn't have an emotional investment, because like, just watching without an emotional investment was like hard enough! Like, I can't imagine if I had been rooting for any of those teams. I might've actually had a heart attack. I loved it! I mean, I watched the end of that Bills–Kansas City game; this was when I was in Portland and I was out at a bar, and we were having lunch. I was like, you guys, we need to find a place that's showing this on TV so we can watch the end of this, because I had missed a few endings. And I was so glad I was with people for that, right? Because it was just so wild. Like, everyone was just like, “What!? What!? WHAT?!” Like, it was just nonstop kind of screaming. It was a blast.
And I think back to a segment that Katie Nolan did years and years and years ago, back with one of her employers who didn't really take care of her. But when she was talking about like domestic violence and the NFL and stuff, and people were being like, “Why don't you just stop watching?” And she was like, “Because I'm not going to let the bad people have this.” Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to let the really bad people take this away from me. I'm going to stay here and fight for it to be better. But that's always kind of what I think about whenever I'm really conflicted. It’s like, no, they're not getting rid of me. I'm going to enjoy this, and I'm going to be annoying as hell. They're not going to be allowed to just be awful and just have their fans who appreciate them being awful. They're going to deal with us, too. Anyways, it was so good. And I do love football. Football and tennis were the first sports I really loved.
Jessica: Same.
Lindsay: It was just thrilling.
Jessica: Yeah. Amira, were you into it?
Amira: No, I didn't watch it all, actually.
Jessica: What!
Amira: I watched these games in clips. Yeah, I just…I don't know. There's just a lot of sports happening and a lot of life happening. And you know, I've talked about this, like the same way that Jess has had this journey with like college football, right? Like, I have had this kind of similar thing with the NFL where I just…Like, it will still grip me, but that kind of like…I sync my calendars to like game schedules, right? Like, I don't have the Patriots game schedule on my main calendar. I have other teams there right now. But I watched it in clips, and so it was kind of fun actually to get the games that way, because it would just be my timeline exploding and then me finding the clips. So it was just like I was getting all of the moments of chaos.
But what I did enjoy actually in the conference championship weekend was I was watching part of the game and then I had to shuttle kids around. And there's a Bengals bar across the street from where Samari has theater rehearsal, and I could hear them. It was just like these explosions of cheers on the street, and I was like, oh, something must be happening, and then I would like check the game. And then they were too quiet for too long, and I was like, drama! And so then I turned on the end part of that game.
Jessica: [laughs] Oh, intense.
Amira: So like, that's how I consumed the playoffs, which is different than sitting and watching it. But it was no less exciting, like, you know, to see lead changes when you're watching clips. You're like, wait, that's not what was happening a minute ago when I refreshed my feeds! So, I still feel like I got all the chaos and vibes, just like in a less structured way.
Jessica: Okay. So, two things before we move to Super Bowl. One, deeply enjoyed the entire internet dunking on Aaron Rodgers after the Packers lost. That was just a super highlight. And then we have these old man quarterbacks retiring. So, Brady is gone. Roethlisberger is gone. It's not clear what's going to happen with Aaron Rodgers. And it's interesting, because at the same moment we have this sort of ascendancy of these other quarterbacks, like Joe Burrow and Josh Allen. And of course Patrick Mahomes. So, it's an interesting moment, I would say, for the QBs out there.
Amira: It is. And I should mention that I talked to Shalise, who was a long time Patriots reporter, about Brady's retirement. And also, it's kind of weird, like, the things that make you feel old. But like, watching these QBs that were so much of my life, like, all but like 10 years of it, leaving? I was like, oh my gosh! [laughs] Like, what is this?
Jessica: I know, it’s wild. But you know, I won't miss these guys.
Lindsay: No.
Jessica: They have worn out their welcome, in many different ways.
Lindsay: Yeah. And they're obviously all bad for very different reasons. And I don't want to, you know, put them all on the same level of bad. But like, none of them are particularly likable. And I find this new crop of quarterbacks very likable. You know, Joe Burrow and Mahomes for the most part and Josh Allen, you know, there's just like some really…Of course Lamar Jackson. Like, there's just really fun quarterbacks to root for, and I'm enjoying that. I don't miss…Of course, I'm sure with time we will get our own– [laughter]
Jessica: I know! Don't stick around for 20 years.
Lindsay: –terribleness! But I’m enjoying this moment right here, right now.
Jessica: Yeah. One last thing before Super Bowl, I'm sorry. I forgot. I just want to do a quick thing. Lots of overtime in these playoffs. And I just want to find out if you all hate NFL overtime the way that I do. They do a coin flip and whoever wins gets the ball and the first team to score wins. So it super favors the coin flip, and I hate it. And so I'm nervous that we're going to get a Super Bowl this year, just based on how the playoffs have gone, that's going to go to overtime and be decided in this really terrible way. And it was such a hot conversation there in the NFL sphere. So, I just want to know if you guys hate it as much as I do? I hate it.
Amira: I just don't understand that when they changed the overtime rules back when they changed the overtime rules to make it more fair…It used to be obviously the first who scored field goal whatever won. And then they were like, oh, that's not fair, because 10 times out of 11 it's going to be who wins the coin toss. So to change it, they were like, you have to score a touchdown to win right away. If you score a field goal, other people get a chance. And I don't understand why if you're implementing new rules, you wouldn't just say everybody gets the ball. Like, it would have been easy enough to just say–
Jessica: Both teams get a shot.
Amira: Yeah. And so it felt like we took a half step.
Jessica: Terrible.
Lindsay: And I get so annoyed when people are like, “Well, defense is half of the game, so like, your defense should be able to stop them.” Okay! It's not like if there's one more possession, the defense is going anywhere. Defense is still going to be out there on overtime! Now you would just guarantee the both defenses would get a shot, just like both offenses. So that is a very empty argument. Like, alright, 1985 Chicago Bears, go sit down.
Amira: And like, we saw these overtime rules in effect when the Patriots played the Falcons in that Super Bowl. They scored a touchdown, a walk-off touchdown, and it was over. And it just–
Jessica: It feels wrong!
Amira: –is one of those nonsensical things. It’s like easy enough to just change.
Jessica: Yeah. It feels wrong. It makes people so mad. So, finally, Super Bowl, let's do it. Who do you think is going to win, Bengals versus Rams? What are you looking forward to? I'm just going to go first because I don't really know. I clearly don't follow these teams that closely. I feel like Matthew Stafford and the Rams are having a moment. They have an incredible defense. But I also have watched the Bengals now do things that no one thought they should be able to do. So, I'm mainly just one of these people who is hoping that we get another last second score from whichever team is going to win, and that it's super thrilling. I don't want a 3-6 Super Bowl or something like that. I want some offense. I want to see some good plays. At least at this point, the NFL owes us this, if nothing else. What are you guys thinking for the Super Bowl? Amira?
Amira: Oh, I'm never going to root for an LA team. [Jessica laughs] So, Bengals all the way. I do want to note though, I just wanted to draw everybody's attention to a few Super Bowl halftime show discussions. There was an attempt to get professional dancers to dance for free at the halftime show, and it was ridiculous. Majority of these dancers were Black dancers. They wanted African-American movers, and it really took a public shaming campaign of the dancers and, you know, their representation, to say like, hey, no. If you're going to mandate a 72 hour rehearsal and not pay us…And they tried to make a distinction, like, Roc Nation always pays its dancers. But they were talking about the stage dancers. And these rehearsals and casting calls and things that they were filling were for field dancers. And it seems to have been resolved, at least that's what they're saying.
But it just was like another thing about the halftime show, which is getting much fanfare. Of course, because it has a stacked lineup – Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg, Kendrick Lamar, Eminem, Mary J Blige. But of course, if you recall back in 2019, the NFL partnered with Roc Nation, with Jay Z, as part of their quote-unquote “inspire change initiative.” This is where Jay Z said, after saying he was never going to perform with them because of, you know, all of the things we just talked about with the NFL. He said, “We’re past kneeling.” Like, we're moving on. We're just like going full into capitalism. He's just, you know, loves to be a capitalist too. And they entered this partnership that was supposed to highlight Black musical acts or multi-racial musical acts, and then also give them money in some way to inspire change. It’s not clear that any of this is happening.
And so this is yet another partnership with Roc Nation. There's a lot of fanfare for this impressive lineup, of course especially because it's in California, and the folks are going wild for it. But I think that with the Flores lawsuit, it feels like just another kind of stark moment where you're like, how long can this entertainment spectacle draw viewers in to the NFL in this way, that they kind of chew up and dispose and only use Black bodies in certain ways, including for halftime entertainment. And I think, sadly, that it's a winning blueprint. Like, I think that people are going to tune in and be really hype about that. And I think it's going to do its job. So, that's just something to keep your eye on for Super Bowl halftime drama. But other than that, Bengals all the way. Beat LA, you know.
Jessica: [laughs] All right. Linz?
Lindsay: Yeah. I just want to get…One of my favorite storylines throughout this playoffs off the field has been watching the Bengals do so well, because it was just a little over a year ago now that Chris Wesseling, who was a podcaster and reporter with the NFL network, passed away because of cancer. And I think it was literally like Super Bowl Sunday, the day before the Super Bowl last year. And had this podcast called Around The NFL with three other guys, and it's a podcast I've listened to for years, because they would recap like literally every single NFL game on Monday mornings. And as a Panthers fan, my team is mostly ignored. So, whenever I was really in my football kicks when the Panthers were doing well, I would make sure I would listen to this podcast.
Through just following the podcast, following Chris, who was kind of the only single guy I think on the program, like, start dating a woman from the NFL network, Lakisha. And then he got diagnosed with cancer the first time, and then he went into remission, and then they got married and had this huge, beautiful wedding. And then they had a baby, and then Chris got cancer again, and then ultimately passed away. So it's like you followed their whole story. But Chris was a huge Bengals fan, and Lakisha is a Rams fan. And so this is the Wesseling Bowl.
I posted some links because I want you guys to see the joy of them celebrating, of Lakisha celebrating these wins with her NFL network family. It's been just so joyous to watch, because the Bengals never won, you know? [laughs] And you know, it was a running joke on the podcast about how the Bengals would always play…The one playoff game would be the afternoon game. It would be called west of us, because they would get like the shittiest time slot on the first weekend of like the wildcard games, and they would lose that game.
Anyways, really thinking of Lakisha. Lakisha's just also a great woman in NFL media, a Black woman in NFL media, who is just doing amazing things. And their son is the cutest boy. He has Chris's face! It's just the cutest thing. Anyways. I don't know these people at all! [laughter] Lakisha follows me but we've literally never interacted. But I feel so invested in this, and I've just literally never been happier for a family over a sports story. [laughs]
Jessica: I love this story because then it's like, whoever wins, someone wins.
Lindsay: Yeah! Yeah. It's just wild, and it's so improbable, and sports can be cool sometimes, you know? Sports are meaningful and can be bigger than the shitty things going on at the administrative level. So, this is another reminder of that.
Jessica: On Thursday, Amira talks to Yahoo Sports columnist and former Patriots beat reporter Shalise Manza Young about Brian Flores’ lawsuit, Tom Brady's retirement, the rise of Joe Burrow and how she's seen sports media change over the years.
Shalise Manza Young: If you speak to any Black man who has been around the NFL for any length of time, who's tried to work up the ladder as a coach, who’s tried to work up the ladder as a scout, and to become a general manager, they all have the same stories. They all, “Well, maybe it's going to be this year. Maybe it's going to be this year…”
Jessica: Now it's time for everyone's favorite segment, the burn pile, where we pile up all the things we've hated this week in sports and set them aflame. Before we get going this week, a general content note that we'll be talking about both gendered violence and transphobia in this burn pile. Lindsay, what are you burning?
Lindsay: Well, both of those things. [laughs] A double burn here. First thing this week, Business Insider published a followup report with more allegations against Barstool founder David Portnoy, including claims that he filmed multiple women during sex without their consent. He has continued just to say the whole thing is just a hit piece. This is a follow-up to their report from last year, and I just want to give kudos to Julia Black and Melkorka Licea for continued reporting, this important reporting, because we know that the backlash they're receiving is immense.
And also want to burn someone a little bit. Nancy Hogshead-Makar right now deserves to be in the burn pile, and has for a while. She is someone I long admired for her work to eradicate abuse in sports. But currently, as we mentioned before, she is running the Women's Sports Policy Working Group, which has a mission to “protect girls and women's competitive sports for biological females.” It's essentially an anti-trans working group. And this week we saw that dangerous stuff in action when she actually penned a letter against trans swimmer Lia Thomas, on behalf of a group of Thomas' Penn teammates, saying that, you know, Lia Thomas should not be able to compete in the upcoming championships.
And, you know, this comes on the back of USA Swimming very transparently changing their trans policy overnight in order to essentially target Lia Thomas specifically. It was like the Caster Semenya regulations that are just so incredibly targeted towards one person. So, the fact that this is how Nancy Hogshead-Makar is using her power and using her connections is one of the most despicable things I've ever heard. So, David Portnoy, Nancy Hogshead-Makar onto the burn pile.
All: Burn.
Jessica: Amira, what are you burning?
Amira: Yeah, I have two soccer related burns. The first is a quick one for USA Soccer, who played a World Cup qualifier in Minnesota last week in arctic temperatures. They chose this location because it was thought to be more friendly to them than Austin or other places, you know, in nicer climates that a lot of Central American fans go to. They’re playing Honduras. You also had Berhalter the coach talk about how it was like no different scheduling the cold weather game than when they have to go down and play in humidity in Central America. Well, I don't know if you watched the game or not. It was physically painful watching them run around in this temperature. Every time they hit the ground, you could practically feel the impact because it's that cold.
Two Honduran players, goalkeeper Luis López and forward Romell Quioto both left at halftime because of how cold it was. There was worry about hypothermia and frostbite. I don't give a fuck what kind of advantage you think you want. Hypothermia and frostbite are absolutely not the move. Like, there's a video of reporters pouring water on a shirt and in two minutes it being stiff as a board. There soccer weather, and then there's just unspeakable conditions that you shouldn't play in just because you want some sort of competitive advantage and you're dumb.
I thought that was harmful, but certainly not as harmful as what I'm about to talk about here. And huge content warning here. Mason Greenwood of Manchester United, last week, was embroiled in absolute mess as videos were posted on his then girlfriend's Instagram, showcasing cuts, bruises, signs of physical abuse, as well as a voice note audio clip that shows him forcing her to have sex with him when she's saying no. There was a number of other kind of materials circulated, briefly, before they were pulled down. But that was enough for this kind of case to be raised. He was arrested and further charged with abuse, with attempted rape. And as the days went on, more charges were added. He was held for three days and then released on bail.
Nike has dropped him, e-sports have removed him, FIFA has removed him from the game. Manchester United has suspended him, issuing a quick statement saying he will not appear – with no timetable on that. It's horrific. We all are too familiar with the ways fans and sporting institutions can rally around or concern themselves with the athlete instead of the person who should be central to it, the person who is dealing with and navigating this abuse. I saw a little bit about that. I think that it was so egregious. I mean, we talk about this all the time, so you should know how egregious it is by how swift all of these people moved to actually distance themselves from him. But even so, the lingering kind of things we cling to in sports media remain. Even just today, there's another report about how this is causing a rift inside of the United dressing room, with some players on following him, and who's trying to support him, and what's alleged, and what's this?
And it's like, we're all too familiar with those narratives happening at this time. But I just wanted to hold space for the young woman who is dealing with a global superstar, and all that comes with going public with abuse and harm at their hands. And just burn these horrific images and audio and all of it. It's insanely frustrating, especially obviously like when it's one of your favorite players, but then also just to remind you, you know, why we don't have heroes. And it's easy to see how abuse persists, because immediately you are like, oh no, but I liked him! And it's like, well, what did I like? His goals? You know, what does that have to do with the man he is and what he's been doing, and the harm? It's just like abuse everywhere. And I want to burn that.
All: Burn.
Jessica: So, I want to burn the continued transphobic sports bills that are going through state legislatures in the US right now, including in Arizona and Alaska. South Dakota's governor has signed a ban against youth trans athletes into law, as of last week. We've talked about this on the show a lot. I interviewed Angel Flores recently; she and I talked about it. We will continue to talk about it. But for now, I just want to highlight that this shit is still happening and put it back on everyone's radar. So, burn that.
But I also want to burn Rocky Wirtz. Most likely you are like me and, until this week, have maybe not until right now ever heard of Rocky Wirtz. But trust that I, and hopefully you, will never forget that Wirtz is an asshole. Wirtz is a Chicago NHL team owner and chairman. Perhaps you'll remember that an investigation recently found that the team purposefully suppressed a report of sexual assault by a player, Kyle Beach, against a video coach during their 2010 run to the Stanley Cup championship.
Well, last week, Wirtz was part of a panel at a town hall put on by the team. The Athletic’s Mark Lazerus asked Wirtz's son, team CEO Danny Wirtz, about what the team is doing to empower players in the future who find themselves in a similar situation to Kyle Beach. As Lazerus stressed on Twitter, his question was about what the team is doing now and in the future. Please listen to how Wirtz responded to this totally reasonable question and what he does when his son tries to answer.
Rocky Wirtz: I'm going to answer the question. I think that report speaks for itself. The people that were involved are no longer here. We're not looking back at 2010, we're looking forward, and we're not going to talk about 2010. They had is my answer. Now, what's your next question? No, that's none of your business. That’s none of your business. What we're going to do today is our business. I don't think it's any of your business, because I don't think it's in your business. You don't work for the company!
Jessica: That's right. At a public town hall, in response to a question about what the team is doing today, in the wake of a publicly published investigation that found massive failure within the team, this man told everyone it was “no one's business.” Kudos to Lazerus for asking, and to another journalist, Phil Thompson, for trying to follow up, even though he got the same kind of angry, belligerent answer from Wirtz. On some level, it is really something to see someone at the top of one of these teams say what we imagined most of them believe, but won't actually say out loud.
But let's be totally clear. This is super fucked up. Wirtz’s response to a simple question – that he should have expected! – was just out of line. All I want, all I want is for reporters who cover this team to continue to ask this exact question of every single person in a position of power on this team for years to come. Years! They should have to answer for this for many years. A team with this kind of massive failure should have to answer for it just over and over and over again. The idea that it's no one's business is a wild thing to say, and a business that’s actually built on fandom and fan loyalty. It is absolutely our business. So I just want to burn this bullshit. Burn.
All: Burn.
Lindsay: burn.
Jessica: Now to highlight people carrying the torch and changing sports culture. First up, our honorable mentions. Amira, will you get us started?
Amira: Yeah. I want to shout out LSU’s elite dance team, the Tiger Girls. They've just won the 2022 Universal Dance Association college nationals. This comes a year after being told by LSU that they could not compete in the 2021 competition because they didn't have enough trainers to send with the team and they wanted to prioritize other sports, but they still expected the Tiger Girls to dance at football games and basketball practices, despite barring them from competition. So when the Tiger Girls chose a song for their nationals competition this year, they went with Ciara’s Like A Boy, and they brought home the trophy.
Jessica: Lindsay.
Lindsay: Yeah, both the Philippines and Vietnam women's soccer teams are headed to their first ever World Cup after qualifying in the AFC Asian Women's Cup. We love that! Congratulations.
Jessica: Amira?
Amira: Yeah, I want to shout out Jada Wooten from the second season of Cheer. After being dis-invited from various cheer, post-cheer, Rebel-sponsored tour stops because of her language and her brashness on the show, she posted an Instagram message A) calling it out, but also affirming herself and her right to be herself, and reminding everybody that they would always be too loud or too Black or too this or too that for somebody, but to continue to being authentically yourself. So Jada, for being unabashedly and unapologetically, authentically yourself, congrats. We see you.
Jessica: There are always plenty of torchbearers at the end of a tennis grand slam; the latest Australian Open is no exception. Cheers to Ash Barty, who won the women's singles, the first Australian to do so since 1978. She has now won a championship on clay, on grass, and the hard courts. Rafael Nadal won his 21st grand slam title, putting him on top on the men's side. He’s passed Federer and Djokovic, who each have 20. And finally, Diede de Groot won the women's wheelchair title, which was her SIXTH grand slam championship in a row! She won the 2020 US Open, all four slams last year, and now the first slam of 2022. That is incredible. Amira?
Amira: For the first time ever, Senegal is the champions of AFCON. They captured the title after a 0-0 tie through extra time. They won it on penalty kicks. It came down to the last kick. It was thrilling. It was exciting. I mean, just listen to the celebrations that rang out on the streets of Dakar…
Jessica: Can I get a drumroll, please?
[drumroll]
Lindsay, please tell us who are torchbearers of the week are.
Lindsay: Yes, we've got women's sports! [laughs] Women’s sports. So, there were two huge pieces of news in pro women's team sports in the United States this week. The NWSL and the Players Association agreed on the league's first ever collective bargaining agreement. Some of the big things were raising the minimum salary to $35,000, which is doesn't sound like much, but I believe it's like a 60% increase over the previous year. This year's was $22,000. So, it's a 4% year over year increase in salaries. And finally, the biggest thing is free agency! Players will get eight weeks of paternal leave, whether for birth or adoption, and up to six months of mental health leave.
And last week, the WNBA announced the largest ever capital raise for a women's sports property, to the tune of $75 million. The league says they'll use this money for brand elevation and marketing, globalization of the WNBA, and to address some of the league's obstacles to growth and generating revenue. We are disrupting cycles of de-investment all over the place, and I'm obsessed. Get on board the women's team sports strain, because it's about to be too expensive for you! Woo woo!
Jessica: All right. What is good in your worlds? Amira, what’s good with you?
Amira: I just want to shout out my former students, who I love to see thrive. Micah of course got the best linebacker award from the NFL this year for his breakout freshman season on the Cowboys, and also won the Pro Bowl dash for the fastest…I mean, obviously Diggs was not running his fastest, but he still won. And of course I talked about being in Portland and getting to see Sam Coffey, who just signed a two year contract with the Portland Thorns, and reported to training camp after the CBA was signed, which was great. And of course, Ellie Jean just signed with Gotham FC. And so, it’s so great to have Ellie back in the States where we can see her games a little bit easier than navigating the Dutch game system. [laughter]
And so it's just a treat to see people that you've watched grow and develop and emerge into themselves also have like this kind of public, professional success. So, that has been a balm over the last week. So, I think that that is like a big what's good for me. And my kid turned 14, and that's wild, you know? [Jessica laughs] Absolutely wild. But it was a great day. Great celebrating her, always.
Jessica: Yay! Lindsay?
Lindsay: Yeah, I don't know. [Jessica laughs] I feel like I still want to tell the fact that it's the Wesseling Bowl story, but we already went over that. But that’s what's good! I also have to say, about like a month ago, I impulse-bought a TV at Costco, which is a ridiculously big impulse buy. But anyway, when I first moved into this apartment, I was so happy because I used to be in a place where basically my TV, my bedroom and office and living room were all the same room. So I was excited to have separate rooms and everything. So I have a TV in my office that I can stream too, and then a TV with cable in my living room.
But having a TV in my bedroom for the Olympics and the Australian Open, like, a life changer! It’s just like the best thing I've ever done. And also I completely reorganized my closet and cleaned under my bed and took out like eight bags of trash from my room over the weekend. No way I would've done that without the TV there. No way! So, TV in bedroom, don't listen to your parents. It's a good thing.
Jessica: [laughs] I love it. What's good? I've I found this challenging over the last week. Ralph, we took him to a bar/dog park – I was thinking of you, Lindsay – yesterday, and I had a grand time with all these dogs. My dog did not! He doesn't like other dogs. He basically stood at the door trying to see if someone would let him go out, or just like staring in the corner of a fence. But I had a good time! So that was good. My son did a School of Rock performance last weekend, and it was the first time that I'd seen him perform in years. He was great, and the whole group was great. So like, he is now just at a different level at the School of Rock. So, just the whole level of the program was high. It was the music of New Orleans. I really enjoyed it.
My son stepped in at the last second. One of the other bass players…My kid plays the keys and the electric bass, but the other bass player got sick and couldn't be there. And so my son had to learn like five or six songs basically overnight, and he did it. And so as a parent, it was great, because he performed on almost every song. [laughs] So, it was like the most that I've gotten to see him perform. And then also shoutout to Amira Rose Davis, who brought me OMG Squee baked goods last night. If you watch Queer Eye this last season, you will know exactly what I'm talking about. And they're good! The donuts are good.
Amira: Yeah. I didn't know what to expect. And they were really good.
Jessica: Yeah. They have a nice, soft, chewy center that I liked a lot. And the ube…There was ube, right?
Amira: Yeah. I didn’t try that one.
Jessica: That’s good. Yeah.
Amira: I just had strawberry and Mexican vanilla.
Jessica: Mexican vanilla, yeah. That one was the best one. And the Mexican vanilla had like a cute cat face.
Amira: I made a noise when Samari a bit into it, because she's weird about faces. And so she's like, I don't want to bite the face! And then when she thought I wasn't looking, she took a bite, and I was like, meowww! [laughter] It’s the little things.
Jessica: It is. So, this week we are watching of course the Olympics. I just want to tell everyone listening, hopefully you caught our interview with Elana Myers Taylor. She will be competing starting this weekend in the bobsled. She was cleared for competition. The Super Bowl, on Sunday, it's on NBC here in the US. We've talked about that to death. And then Athletes Unlimited’s basketball season is continuing in Las Vegas, and it has been fun and thrilling so far.
That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon does our website, episode transcripts and social media. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. You can find Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. If you want to subscribe to Burn It All Down, you can do so on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, and TuneIn – all of the places. For information about the show and links and transcripts for each episode, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. From there you can email us directly or go shopping at our Bonfire store and get some Burn It All Down merch.
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