Episode 244: The Hot, Cold and Tawdry Balls of the 2022 Men's World Cup Draw
In this episode Shireen Ahmed, Brenda Elsey and Jessica Luther talk about the men's World Cup draw. But first they discuss their favorite event hosts and plan Brenda's application to host the Ballon d'Or.
Then, they discuss part one of a gazillion in men's World Cup mess with the 2022 draw in Qatar. They dive into the colonial history, confusing governance of FIFA, infamous men's World Cup draw scandals -- including, yes, hot and cold balls -- and the ways human rights abuses in Qatar and all mega event host countries are continually silenced.
Following this discussion, you'll hear a preview of Amira Rose Davis and Jessica Luther's interview with Austin FC’s goalkeeper, Brad Stuver. Next, they burn the worst of sports this week on the Burn Pile. Then, they celebrate those making sports better including Torchbearers of the Week, the Australian women's cricket team who just won the Women's Cricket World Cup. They wrap up the show with What's Good in their in their lives and What We're Watching in sports this week.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Links
Winners and Losers of the 2022 World Cup Draw: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2954859-winners-and-losers-of-the-2022-world-cup-draw
Professor claims FIFA draw contains hidden bias that skews the odds: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/canada-world-cup-toronto-professors-better-draw-chris-jones-april-1-1.6405610
Qatar and FIFA criticized harshly ahead of World Cup draw: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/soccer-world-cup-fifa-quatar-criticism-1.6403501
10 Questions Journalists Should Ask FIFA and Qatari Authorities About Rights Abuses: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/29/10-questions-journalists-should-ask-fifa-and-qatari-authorities-about-rights-abuses
Transcript
Shireen: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast that you need. I'm Shireen, and I'm joined by Brenda and Jessica. Today on the show, we will be talking about the World Cup draw. Speaking of the draw, I think Idris Elba is hot. And I think that hosts are important for things. So, I think he was a great host for the men's World Cup draw in Qatar. I also really love Reshmin Chowdhury. And the reason I say this is I like to bring everything back to Idris Elba at some point. But I also want to talk about hosts. Jess, who do you love as a host?
Jessica: I love Hugh Jackman. I liked when he hosted the Tonys and the Oscars. I like when he sings. And I just find him adorable and I love how much he loves his wife. So, Hugh Jackman. But I also wanted to mention Saturday Night Live, which I never watch. And someone I'd never heard of, Jerrod Carmichael, hosted, and I just want everyone to go watch the six minute intro that he did. It's about the slap, but it's like the tightest, most perfect response to that. And I just want to know everything about this man now that I have seen those six minutes.
Shireen: What do you know about him so far?
Jessica: That he's really good at standup comedy and smart. It is so good.
Shireen: Brenda, you're smart and like smart things. Who is your host préféré?
Brenda: I'm not going to say Chris Rock, but really traditionally he's one of my favorites. In a similar vein though is Ricky Gervais, two people that just don't give a fuck.
Jessica: Wow. Look at you, Bren.
Brenda: Yeah, I know. It's not for everybody.
Jessica: [laughs] Okay.
Brenda: These are not for everybody. These are not everybody's hosts.
Jessica: That is true.
Brenda: If people were like, you know, “I think it should be someone else,” I think I'd be like, yeah, you're probably right. But if you asked me who I enjoy, just seeing like, really be like, oh, look, we're at an awards show where things pretend to be fair and they're not and millionaires pretend to care about Ukraine, but they don't, you know? That’s Ricky Gervais for you. He's gonna just like tear down that facade. And that's what I like. Not him, you know, maybe bordering on transphobic jokes, I do not enjoy. But the idea of having a host that's going to tear away this posturing of progressive politics at these awards. Yes, please.
Shireen: I would love to see you host the men's World Cup draw, Brenda. [Brenda laughs]
Jessica: Me too. Me too! A+ [laughs]
Brenda: Just imagine, I spend the whole time talking about Rihanna. [laughter]
Shireen: If you, I mean, honestly, if you kicked Sepp Blatter, what would you do to Infantino, is my question. [laughs]
Brenda: Oh, you know, I'm very angry about him right now.
Jessica: I'm picturing Brenda in like the most amazing tux. [Brenda laughs] It would just look…Wow. I'm so happy right now thinking about that.
Shireen: I would probably love Brenda more than Idris Elba. [Brenda gasps] I think that would happen.
Brenda: Oh my gosh. That’s a huge compliment.
Shireen: I already do, but like, do you know what I mean? We'd have to do this topic again. A little more locally, there’s the in-house Raptor's host, his name is Mark Strong, and I think he's amazing. And he has this excellent energy, and I love that. So, should we offer a submission, Brenda, for you to host the men's draw next time?
Brenda: I could totally host the men's draw. I'm good with the women's draw. Also, you can submit my name for the Ballon d’Or because of the draw, you know, I don't get to meet or fangirl over people, you know? Then it's just a straight roast. [Jessica laughs] Whereas I feel, you know, the Ballon d’Or, at least I could pepper my negativity with some sincere love for players, you know?
Shireen: Yeah. I want that for you.
Jessica: I want that for us.
Brenda: I want to just like walk by Cristiano Ronaldo and say nothing, you know? Just like, oh, is someone here? You know what I mean? Like, I've got my pretend microphone, you know? [laughter] How does it feel to be the most overrated player of all time?
Shireen: You know what I would love? If Brenda were matching glittery tux like Messi's family.
Jessica: [gasps] Oh, wow. We need that photoshop immediately.
Shireen: The men's World Cup begins with an idea, then involves some mafia-like scamming. Then comes the World Cup draw. That's a basic synopsis. So that's where we are now. The draw has occurred. It occurred in Doha, Qatar. And for those of you that care, it's not Qatar. It's Qatar. [laughs] So hit me up if you're interested in saying that. But let's talk about the draw. There are eight groups for the men's World Cup, and it was like a little lottery. Do you remember when we were young and we had the little lottery pick, the little balls in the machine that blow around?
Jessica: They actually pick them out of…?
Shireen: They do. That's actually what happens. And they had like eight stations and people were picking out those balls. So, Group A is Qatar, who are the hosts, so they get an automatic bye in their first appearance at the men's World Cup; Ecuador, Senegal, the Netherlands. Group B is England, Iran, United States, Wales, Scotland or Ukraine – there’s a couple that we don't actually know yet. Group C is Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Poland. Group D: France, Peru or Australia, or United Arab Emirates, then Denmark and Tunisia. Group E: Spain, Costa Rica or New Zealand, Germany and Japan. So, E was considered the most difficult group. Group F: Belgium, Canada, Morocco, Croatia. Group G: Brazil, Serbia, Switzerland, Cameroon. And Group H: Portugal, Ghana, Uruguay, South Korea. So, those are a lot of teams, but Brenda, where did this idea come from, of the draw?
Brenda: Like most things involved in global soccer, it was cobbled together over time to serve various corrupt interest groups. So, the very first draw was in 1930, there was 13 teams, and they were actually divided into four groups. Then they played each other and then whoever won went on to semifinals and then the finals, right? So, it's always been a part of football tournament in general. And when you have something that makes a lot of sense, like relegation, this also makes a lot of sense. The discourses around it don’t. The governance around it doesn’t. But when we expand the next time around in 2026 to 48 teams, I mean, I just–
Jessica: What!? There are going to be 48 teams?
Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: [laughs] Gosh. Soon it'll just be the whole world will play in the World Cup. Okay.
Brenda: Of course, because capitalism gobbles the world, like, it's just they won't stop.
Jessica: It'll just be year round, year round World Cup.
Brenda: You can thank the US for that, that wanted more money for it's World Cup in 2026. So you can thank the US Soccer Federation, or if you don't want to thank them and you want to be like, what kind of shit is this? You can do that too, because it's ridiculous.
Shireen: And Canada wants that money too, because they’re joint hosting. And it's not like they ever give that money to the women's side. And 48 teams is insane. It'll be like a three month World Cup!
Brenda: Anyway, whatever. You have to just give yourself over to the fact that there's never going to be a good…Like, this is just the way it is. So you can just stop watching soccer now, [laughter] you can be an activist within, but you have to give yourself over to the fact that this is just going to be stupid. So, yeah, there's going to be 48 teams. So it’s always been around, and I think it makes a lot of sense to involve people, give people a chance as much as possible. So, the qualifiers have always kind of worked like that, and even in the tournament, the idea of a group of death is super stupid. And I'll just tell you why, because now we're not at the point where these groups have one team that goes on. You have two teams that go on. It's just so frustrating to see these otherwise smart journalists write things like “Group E is a group of death” with Spain, Costa Rica, New Zealand, Germany, Japan. LOL! This is the easiest group in the world.
Why, why, Brenda, would this be easy? There are two hard teams, Germany and Spain. And that's right. And they go on. That's why it's not the group of death! It's the group of no chance for Costa Rica. That's all it is! It's not a group of death! The group of deaths are the ones that actually you get a spoiler, like Poland, Argentina and Mexico. Now, that's going to fuck you up right there. That's like, you don't know, you know? Points might be thrown around. Things might be happening. So just, you know, be very cautious about who you follow before you go and say this wild ass stuff.
Shireen: Yeah, you'd make the best men's World Cup draw host ever, [Brenda laughs] if we could go in with that type of commentary level.
Brenda: I would just be like, obviously Groups A and B are cheating, you know what I mean? Like, that's a setup, to say that Qatar has a chance. That's what that is.
Shireen: Jess, do you have any questions for Brenda?
Jessica: I really do have a question. So, I did do the thing where my nationalism had me watching the US men's team playing soccer. And I don't understand much of any of this. So they kept talking about how there was going to be half of a qualification spot? And I now understand that there'll be the CONCACAF-Oceania playoff game. We talked Costa Rica-New Zealand. But like, how do they determine how many slots these different federations get, to the point that you have half of a slot for multiple…? [Brenda laughs] It sounded so confusing as a casual watcher of men's international soccer. And of course they didn't explain it on the show. So I've been dying to ask you this.
Brenda: So, each federation, each country can have a federation, okay? Each federation has a vote in FIFA and the governing body, right? Like like the UN. And each has a team. They all go to this congress and they make rules. When most of the World Cup really exploded, Africa was almost entirely colonized by Europe. As well as big chunks of Asia. And so it's super unfair. There are 54 federations in Africa, 54 countries participate, and they only get five spots in the World Cup. Whereas there's 55 in Europe and it gets 13.
Jessica: And this is just because they all voted on this?
Brenda: Right, because they weren't considered “developed” enough – I'm putting big air quotes – to have a football culture worthy of entering the World Cup.
Jessica: Oh, this is so similar to what you get with women’s sports. And like, they're never developed enough to include them.
Brenda: Right. And so the 0.5s are kind of like these give backs here and there. Asia has 4.5.
Jessica: Oh. So it's terrible and insidious. [laughs]
Brenda: Yes.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Should’ve guessed.
Brenda: And then here's the worst, is that there's Europe playoff with just Europe. [laughter] Like, it made sense to have the confederations, like, we only have one more slot to give, so we'll make you guys have a playoff of your lowest teams. But then it's just like, BUT – we'll just give Europe one more that it can play itself for.
Jessica: Wow. Okay.
Brenda: Which is gross. And then there's things like Israel, which should be banned entirely from participating in FIFA, and it gets to be in UEFA, which means they give up a shot of going to the World Cup ever, but continue to express their nationalism and settler colonialism through football. So I mean, there's ways in which countries game this for different reasons, and either are willing to lose their spot or win their spot depending on where they are. Now, the fascinating thing about global football in a lot of ways, and this is why I really love studying what I study, is that South American – and this is why sports don't reflect world power or anything perfectly, while they always reflect things messed up – is that South America, you have 10 countries in the South American confederation, which is the oldest of the six, after Europe. And that gets 4.5. And if you expand to 48, what the hell? Are you going to have 6 out of 10 South American countries playing? That said, are you going to see better football because you have the majority of South America playing? Absolutely. [Shireen laughs] Do they account for most of the world's professional football players? Yes. So, how about that? [laughs]
Jessica: Thank you, Bren.
Shireen: God, I love it when we get to talk football. And Brenda had said how it initially started from corruption, and Jessica, you said it was insidious, the way that it was all pieced together. One thing is scandals, and I want to get a little bit tawdry in the gossip, because a huge part of men's football media is gossip.
Jessica: I almost feel like it's the engine. [laughs]
Shireen: Yeah, we can't have a proper conversation on men's football without having a conversation about these type of things. So, some of the biggest scandals in men's World Cup draw history. This is one of my favorite headlines: Sepp Blatter claims that European draw is fixed with hot and cold balls. I just think that title was so, so British. So, it's basically that when the balls are being drawn out of the sphere, it's like in a clear sphere. You can see the balls, because that's as transparent as FIFA will ever get, is a clear sphere to have the hot and cold balls in them. So when people pull them out, they're instructed to either pull out a hot one or…So, they're temperature controlled. Think about this.
Brenda: If you ever read the Nobel prize winner Mario Vargas Llosa, who wrote La Fiesta del Chivo, it’s about Rafael Trujillo, who literally did this in the 1930s. So this mimics this classic authoritarian…And that was the thing, he would have the kids draw the balls to look like he wasn't corrupt, but then he would tell the children which balls, the hot or cold balls. So I feel like this is like an amazing dictator trick that FIFA has learned. Like, they get a book of secret villains.
Jessica: How do they do it? Like, I would like to understand the mechanics of this.
Brenda: They put the balls in the freezer, and then they're like, “Pick the cold ones.” Or maybe hot ones, Shireen. I just know that, in this story, it's the cold ones.
Jessica: Okay. Okay.
Shireen: Like, the level of corruption is not super sophisticated. [Jessica laughs] I can just see them carrying around a Coleman cooler full of balls! [laughter]
Jessica: Just scooping out the balls, yes. Do not look behind the curtain! Do not look behind the curtain.
Shireen: Don’t look. What is happening in the wings of the stage? I want to know. So, another one that I thought was really interesting was Michel Platini of UEFA, a former French national. I feel like I should add “disgraced” before every single person I'm talking about here. [laughter] Disgraced Michel Platini. He was booted out of both UEFA and FIFA – again, disgraced. And if it wasn't clear, Sepp Blatter was also disgraced. He has gone so much as to say that the 1998 World Cup daw was fixed, which is shocking, which was made so France would play Brazil in the final. And we all remember 1998, you know, France, the men's side, won. And Zinedine Zidane hoisted the trophy. We love Zinedine Zidane on this show. He can do no wrong. That's not true, but let me think that. You know, I just think it's really interesting that at this point Platini, who was the head of UEFA, is coming out now. And now they're trying to call out, including Sepp Blatter, they're using this sort of playbook of calling out past wrongs that they were complicitly part of as a redemption arc for their own evils. It's so bizarre. I just wonder what Infantino, what group chat texts he'll be posting in 10 years to, you know, vindicate himself.
Brenda: And don't forget, I just want to…In case listeners don't know, Platini, as Shireen mentioned, and Blatter, who were implicated in many corruption scandals involving hosting, including the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, including this 2022, are eligible to rerun for office and participate fully in football next year. So, Blatter’s football for life sentence has been reduced. They're both eligible as of 2023. So look for them to make these statements right now, because they're thinking to themselves, how can I get back in there? Because there's more to embezzle.
Shireen: I did come across, in preparation for this episode, two Toronto professors who actually study statistics and probability. And this is from the article that we're going to quote, it's a CBC article that we'll add in the notes. Quote, “Rosenthal and Roberts have devised and proposed three alternative selection methods, each of which offers a perfectly uniform draw. Pick after pick, eight groups are filled out purely and objectively. Their most stylish and exciting methods still includes the use of lottery balls – which, let’s face it, are kind of fun. A computer algorithm gives equal weight to each theoretical candidate for a group, while also meeting all of FIFA constraints. Selectors could then be offered a collection of balls containing those names to draw manually. Rosenthal and Roberts have approached FIFA with their trio of solutions. At the moment, at least, the probability that any of them will be implemented seems…limited.”
Jessica: [laughs] Yes. Good luck to the statisticians.
Shireen: “We're just two professors out of a sea of billions of football fans out there, so I'm not holding my breath that FIFA is going to change everything and do it our way,” Rosenthal said. “But they are aware there are some issues.” So I think this is really cute. People nerd out on football. I just think this is really fascinating stuff, because there's real academics out here dedicating research time to studying how this can be less corrupt and terrible.
Jessica: And FIFA will be like, thanks, no thanks. [laughs]
Shireen: Yeah. A hundred percent. We're never going to see Rosenthal–
Brenda: I mean, they could just draw the ball like normal.
Shireen: They'd be room temperature.
Brenda: I mean, we could go through this.
Shireen: We just want them to all be room temperature. [laughs] So there are these political and governance scandals, but also there's actually really fucking awful human rights abuses. Jess, what else is happening?
Jessica: Yeah. So, we've talked about human rights abuses and Qatar a lot on this program. For an in-depth rundown, I suggest episode 202: Qatar and the World Cup of Shame. It was actually the three of us, almost a year ago exactly, talking about this. But it isn't just activists, organizers, human rights advocates and Burn It All Down who care about this particular aspect of this upcoming World Cup. Last week, Lise Klaveness, president of the Norwegian football federation, spoke at FIFA congress in Doha the day before the draw and used her six minutes in front of the group of mainly dudes who run FIFA, including Gianni Infantino. And she said…
Lise Klaveness: In 2010, World Cups were awarded by FIFA in unacceptable ways with unacceptable consequences. There is no room for employers who do not secure the freedom and safety of World Cup workers. No room for leaders that cannot host the women's game. No room for hosts that cannot legally guarantee the safety and respect of LGBTQ+ people coming to this theater of dreams.
Jessica: I think it's fair to say, hearing someone from within FIFA say this publicly to FIFA, that seems like a rarity to me.
Brenda: She is really rare. I mean, she's not in the executive council, so she's just a regular voting member kind of like, you know, at the UN or something like coming to represent her country. And she's a former international who's really well-respected, had many caps for Norway. So, fuck yeah, she's awesome.
Shireen: And I also think it's really important that we've seen a rise in players also talking about this. And, you know, men's football media is a huge, huge industry in the world. I'm not saying I'm giving anyone any cookies. But they're have been questions more so. I think there's a way that we should be questioning this. There is a way to love football and there is a way to question and be critical of what we're talking about here. And so recently, Human Rights Watch, and I just want to draw attention to this, released 10 questions. Like, they released a document with 10 questions journalists should ask FIFA and Qatari authorities about human rights abuses. But even if you're not a journalist covering men's football, these are really good questions to be thinking about as you watch and as we get closer to the men's World Cup. I'm not gonna read all of them, but like one of them is “Why does FIFA continue to praise Qatar’s reform process despite the ongoing human rights violations in Qatar?”
And very specifically, for those that don't know, was very much indentured servitude of South Asian men, predominantly. And by the time the men's World Cup rolls around, maybe more than 11,000 men would have died constructing these stadiums. And it's growing. It’s not reported that way by the authorities, obviously, but that's an approximate that human rights groups have said that, quoted that number.
Jessica: Can I just say that there's something deeply depressing about the idea that Human Rights Watch has to put out a thing asking journalists to do what seems like the most basic of questioning. They're right, because of how access journalism works and the integrity of some of these so-called journalists, but wow. That just bums me out.
Brenda: Oh yeah, it is…I mean, think about how little anybody cares. I mean, there's a few of us, but you know…And there's so much to care about. Ukraine, you know, a thousand soldiers have died. But it's like, this is supposed to be fun. [laughs] Like, not war.
Jessica: And I think like, one thing is I feel like for these journalists in these press conferences, part of it is that you worry that FIFA will never allow you back in ever again.
Brenda: Oh, because they won’t. They won’t!
Jessica: But also, that the people sitting around you, your colleagues, the people who are doing this work with you, will be annoyed that you have brought this up and brought the party down. And we know how FIFA would react, but also shame on the colleagues who would make someone feel as if these are not the questions that should be asked all the time.
Shireen: And I mean, I'm not here only to toot Burn It All Down’s horn, and there's a lot of people doing this type of reportage. But honestly, we're used to being feminist killjoys in this group. So we're fine with asking these questions, because one of the other questions of the 10 is, “Will journalists face any restrictions reporting in Qatar if they come up for the World Cup?” And for me, safety of journalists is really important. Safety, speaking up publicly in your own country. And I know for a fact from very solid sources that Qatar does keep track of who says what about whom. They really do. They follow online personalities and journalists who are critiquing them. And even those that don't work for major publications or whatnot, they do. They have dossiers on people coming in. They know exactly who's coming into that country. Qatar is not a democracy, and let's remember that. Well, FIFA is no type of democracy. And I know that this entire thing is super sketchy.
So, at the same time that we want these questions to be posed, it is very depressing from a journalistic standpoint, like, this is what you're up against. And also, retribution that you shall face. What would that look like? If you don't have a country that's supporting you or an institution that backs you up, what does that look like? If you're an independent journalist traveling to Qatar for the men's World Cup, do you have the supports you need? These are all things to consider here. And, you know, in that very same vein, pushback not only of journalists, but what about athletes and other countries, Brenda?
Brenda: Well, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, the pushback, once Lise Klaveness spoke, the pushback came right away. There was a rebuttal from José Ernesto Mejía, the president of the Honduras federation, that said this wasn't the place for that – which is the same hackneyed, stupid thing that we've heard a million times. But the other issue is, you know, this is a system that is very susceptible to corruption, and you have a one country one federation one vote, like the United Nations. That means that countries that are structurally weaker in terms of protecting journalists, in terms of banking restrictions and regulations – for example, like Turks and Caicos – will be able to go in and, you know, pull a certain weight. Or in this case, José Ernesto Mejía gets to talk to Lise Klaveness. I don't know why! He hasn't done shit in football. But he gets to stand up and basically tell her that she's out of place.
And so, this is the type of thing that you really have to wrestle with. And it's impossible to understand how this continues to transpire and how these things can be cleaned up if you don't get into the very messy labyrinth that is this governance. But the problem is, how do you even understand it when you're not giving journalists access? And, as you're saying, this is set up this way on purpose. Just know it's intentional. There's intentional confusion. There's intentional denial of press passes. This isn't anything that they want transparency over. So, yeah, the pushbacks come from these places, and then there's this inbred structure to it, like from jump, where like these dudes get to rebut what she just said. Like, shut the fuck up. Are you kidding me? What is he, coordinating and organizing committee, he gets to respond to her? Why? Why?
Jessica: The Guardian said set it up this way.
Brenda: Yeah, exactly. Because they want him to make her seem–
Shireen: Belittled.
Brenda: Like she's this white woman who's racist against them. They told her to go get “educated.” It's like, Shireen just told you 11,000 people died. You know what I mean? Get educated yourself, you murderer! What are you talking about? And how dare you use the very real fact that there is imperialism and racism in FIFA to protect yourself about killing South Asian workers? Just, oh my god…
Shireen: I also am, while it's really important to focus attention on this particular one, it's not like other men's World Cups are devoid of this type of criticism. And I think it's heinous to attack somebody speaking out against this and say, well, you are white and you can't talk about this because there has to be a way to be able to do that. But at the same time, I'm very conscientious of who is speaking out against these countries – and haven't spoken out previously, or won't speak out about USA and Canada hosting. It's not like gentrification doesn't happen. I mean, NOlympics has been on this from the get go. They’re talking about mega events and how disruptive and destructive they are. FIFA gave hosting to USA that is literally attacking trans fans. Like, literally, how is that okay? Will men's football journalists be asking these questions? I'm so ready for 2025 to come so we can have them all on the burn pile. So my point is there is a way to critique all the time. Let's continue those critiques.
Another thing that I wanted to sort of shift to and pivot to is the idea of we say men's World Cup, because it's important to make that distinction. And, you know, I think that there are campaigns, even one that Canadian women's soccer team captain Christine Sinclair actually backed up, about adding the ‘M’ to these discussions to talking about sports and why that's important. And Jess, I know you had some thoughts on this too.
Jessica: Yeah. Well, when Canada qualified, a lot of people basically erased the women's team and all of the success they've had by just skipping over these three decades by, you know…They made it sound as if no Canadian team has been to a World Cup for 36 years. And we know that that is just patently false, and all you have to do in order to correct that is literally write “men's World Cup.” What is that, five characters? It is literally nothing to just say the men’s, and it bothers me to no end, just because of the default idea that men’s is sport and women's is something else. But also, it really just got me this time because of the erasure of the women's team who were the best in the world at the last major international competition. And it's just so easy. And at the same time, women's qualifying is still happening right now. There's a World Cup coming up behind this for the women. And so it should just be clear. Just say what you actually mean and just put “men's there.” It's so simple. Just do it.
Shireen: We're not asking you to put it in a freezer and carry it around, make it hot or cold, just use the right language. [Jessica laughs]
Brenda: Or, if you can't wrap your head around it, integrate the records, integrate the facts, you know what I mean? And then stipulate what it is like, like, you know what I'm saying? If you want to keep the World Cup, it's the same game. It's the exact same rules, the same size ball. [laughs] There’s absolutely nothing different. So if we want to consider this one thing, then do it, but then you have to start researching women's football. And that's what they don't want to do. So I'm sure that these people would rather just tack on “men’s.” You know, I almost think like, to a certain extent, I'd love to make them do the work to actually figure out some women's statistics. [laughs]
Shireen: I mean, it's really interesting, when I saw a headline that says, “Canada has not been to the World Cup since 1986.” I'm like, you fucking hosted it in 2015!
Brenda: Wild. I know. I know! [laughter] It’s so bad!
Shireen: It's just…It’s bad. So, please, this is the only time Burn It All Down will ever implore you to talk about men or include men in anything. Add men's World Cup! For this week's interview, Amira and Jessica talked to Austin FC's goalkeeper Brad Stuver about his journey in the MLS, his service in the Austin community, and his advocacy for trans youth in sport in Texas.
Brad Stuver: When I moved down here to Texas, and you're on the ground and you're talking to people that are in the fight, you go to the capitol and you see children standing up there giving speeches about their own rights and their own freedoms. And they just want to be themselves. It’s kind of one of those moments where I was like, wow, I'm in a unique position where I have a platform that I can reach a different group of people and a larger amount of people. So, in that moment, I wanted to be able to leverage my position to at least advocate for this group that might not have the same audience that I do.
Shireen: Moving on to everybody's favorite segment, the burn pile. Jessica, can you go first?
Jessica: I can. So, I want to start my burn by reading the lede of an Associated Press piece from last week: “The public’s share of the cost of building and operating a new stadium for the Buffalo Bills will exceed $1.1 billion, once long-term maintenance costs are factored in.” $1.1 billion for a sports stadium for a private professional sports team owned by billionaires. This plan was recently announced by New York governor Kathy Hochul, a Bills fan and Buffalo area native. For just the actual construction of the new Bills stadium, taxpayers – both state and county in New York, which includes our own Brenda Elsey – they will pay $850 million of the $1.4 billion cost. That means that the billionaire owners of the team, Kim and Terry Pegula, and the National Football League will only pay $550 million. That $850 million would be the largest direct public subsidy for an NFL stadium in history. The entire state of New York will be putting up roughly $600 million, with more than $418 million of that coming from a delayed casino related payment from the Seneca Nation, according to Hochul.
The Seneca Nation has come out strongly against this deal. Seneca Nation of Indians president Matthew Pagels put out a statement that read, in part, “New York's hostile and shameless greed was laid bare for the world to see yesterday. The governor's new stadium won't be a product of progress. It will be a monument to Albany's vindictive desire to punish the Seneca people. Ultimately, it's something we're all too familiar with.” Pagels also pointed out that Bill Hochul – Kathy's husband, y’all, get this! Bill Hochul, Kathy's husband, is a key executive with a company called Delaware North, a Buffalo company that holds the concession rights to the current stadium. So, he seems deeply invested in what happens with stadium construction in Buffalo. You cannot make this shit up. Even before Hochul became governor, she met with Bills co-owner Kim Pegula. This is clearly a top concern for Hochul. Of course, she has said this was “necessary.” It's always “necessary” to make sure that the Bills didn't leave Buffalo for some other city that would hand over a shit ton of money to them.
But like, man, that's not a good enough reason! There is no evidence that the public benefits anywhere close to making up for the expense. Roger Noll, a Stanford economist, has said that these stadiums “create an economic black hole, because the money spent on professional sports teams is not actually recirculated within the community.” Economist after economist will tell you this. Y’all, the Pegulas are worth $5.4 billion! They could pay for this whole thing by themselves and still have $4 billion! The team itself is valued at $2.2 billion. And these are the people who need public money to pay for their private business? Just no. On top of all of this, a few days before Hochul announced this deal, she put out her proposed budget, which has a $800 million cut in funding to the office of children and family services, and few days later turns around and says that the state's going to put $850 million into an NFL stadium. I hate all of this! It's garbage. I want to burn it all. Burn.
All: Burn.
Shireen: Brenda, what are you torching this week?
Brenda: I'm still mad about Jessica's burn. I think I just paid my New York state taxes and now I’m pissed. So, my burn is something that's equally upsetting, which is my one time, I don't know, hero, icon, sports idol, Martina Navratilova’s posting on social media regarding trans women in sports. She has in particular propped up the pseudoscience propped up – and again, this is secondhand, thirdhand, fourthhand, so often, like these things work – of Nancy Hogshead-Makar. So, these two are arguing with the Ms. Foundation. So, Ms. Foundation did all this research about the ways in which trans women are not being included in policy-making, the way that these new policies are, you know, excluding trans people. And here comes Martina Navratilova and Nancy Hogshead to say, no, that's not true.
Like, what credentials do you have? When did you ever do a study? What are you, social scientists? I mean, I respect your careers. But, you know, they put up these graphs that are like, “Here is this biological analysis of the difference of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” They have no idea what they're putting up there. It's pseudoscience and it's bullshit. And at the same time they mix it with these pro-LGB – I will not say T – messages. They put JK Rowling out there. You know what this is. And how they are unable to identify that the very same people who are homophobic, like the New York Post. And they retweet those outlets. The ways in which they don't recognize that the very same people that are spouting this anti-trans rhetoric are the very same people that are homophobic is so frustrating.
It's so confusing to an audience that looked at both of them as real feminist heroes and icons. I’m so deeply disappointed that they would put this stuff out on Trans Visibility Day, on all of these other days when we are trying so hard to show people the way in which this is connected, that there are ethical biologists that are out there saying, like, look, you people, there are many genders, this is a spectrum. And yet they find this graph that they just throw up there, and it's like a two second thing, and it's just violent. It's very upsetting. And it only empowers the very structures that they think that they're tearing down. And so I want to burn their irresponsible social media.
All: Burn.
Shireen: We have talked about how terrible FIFA is in many regards, and this is a topic that Burn It All Down has revisited many times and one that I have written of and looked into, and it's one that still is very painful. Iran continues to block women from entering stadiums, and this latest report that came out on March 31st from Human Rights Watch, again, and I do want to give this organization cookies for the reporting they do on violations of human rights in relation to sport in particular, because these need to be documented. And those in power all over the place, men and even women that are holding up toxic and violent patriarchy don't do that. So this is really important. And again, props to the journalists that are reporting on this around the world at their own peril against states and regimes. So, Iranian authorities prevented dozens of women from attending a match on March 29th, which was actually a FIFA men's World Cup qualifier for Qatar. It was between Lebanon and Iran.
And there were videos circulating all over social media of how women were gathered in front of the stadium and authorities were using pepper spray on them. They weren't allowed to enter. And this is a lot of the reporting of Tara Sepehri Far, who’s a senior Iran researcher with Human Rights Watch. And they were just violating, violating the rights of these people to watch and to participate as a community, which is just unabashedly unjust. Now, the Iranian football federation issued a statement on the 30th saying that it was due to “a lack of preparation” that they weren't allowed to accommodate the women. Like, what exactly do they mean? They need a seat in a stadium to watch. These are all deflecting mechanisms. Like, it's so…Iran should have been suspended a long time ago. And as much as I hate to say that, because I have friends that play for Iran and are invested in women's football in Iran, but this is unacceptable. It really is unacceptable.
And it also puts Iranian women in a terrible place, because what it does then is that they don't want to speak out about it because nobody wants to get suspended from FIFA because it'll shut down their own programs. It's like you're in a catch-22 situation. You hate that women can’t attend, but you also don't want to shut down your own programs. And we've had Katayoun Khosrowyar on the show before who was the coach of the senior women's national Iranian team. And you know, she didn't speak to this of course, because I'm not going to, you know, suspect why, but it's very complicated, is what it is. It's also treacherous that women are being treated this way. It's also even more treacherous that Infantino had gone and publicly promised that like, look, the Tehran derby is one of the biggest in the world. He was there when women were detained a couple of years ago. He was a literally on premises when 30 women were detained. And he promised after that. He didn't make a statement while he was in Iran – he went until he was back in Switzerland.
But the point here is to say, it's not as if this is unknown. It's hard for me to say that I want Iran suspended because I care about women's football in that region. But at the same time, this is unacceptable. And we all remember when there was a young woman who actually died of self-immolation. And it's really hard. Sahar Khodayari, in 2019, because she was so frustrated, she was detained and didn't know what was gonna happen. There's deaths at the hands of these policies, literally. I want to take all of this, I want to take those powers that be in those places that are spineless, that don't give a shit about women, that refuse to include women in the football community, in the football world – which is absolutely against FIFA’s policies of gender discrimination, which are just lip service at this point – and I want to take it all, and I want to torch it. Burn.
All: Burn.
Shireen: After all that burning, let's lift up some really, really incredible moments and folks. Brenda?
Brenda: There was a lot of amazing attendance this past week at the women's champion league quarterfinals, Barcelona versus Real Madrid brought in over 91,000 people to Camp Nou.
Shireen: Jess?
Jessica: Swin Cash, Marianne Stanley and Lindsay Whalen are all part of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame class of 2022. I just want to tell you a little bit about each of them. Cash is a three time WNBA champion, two time gold medalist, four time WNBA All Star and a two time NCAA champion at UConn who is currently the vice president of basketball operations for the New Orleans Pelicans. Stanley, the current head coach of the Indiana Fever and former WNBA coach of the year, coached Old Dominion to an NCAA championship in 1984 and back-to-back AIAW titles in '79 and '80. And Whalen is a five time WNBA All Star, four time WNBA champion and a two time Olympic gold medalist. She's currently the head coach of the Minnesota Gophers. This is an incredible lineup.
Shireen: I want to shout out the U Sports women's basketball winner, Ryerson Rams. They won their first U Sports gold medal to end a 14 to 0 undefeated season. They played Sunday night. There was a lot of women's basketball, collegiate level, university level last night, but this is one of it. And I'm very proud to be an instructor and part of the faculty at X University. And this was some great news. Give me an A!
Jessica: A!
Shireen: Give me an M!
Jessica: M!
Brenda: M!
Shireen: Brenda, faster. Give me an I!
Jessica: I!
Shireen: Give me an R.
Jessica and Brenda: R!
Shireen: Give me an A!
Jessica and Brenda: A!
Shireen: What do you get? [laughs]
Brenda: Amira!
Jessica: Amira! Dr. Amira Rose Davis. She had an essay about Title IX at 50 that aired on ESPN before the championship match. It is beautiful and poignant and pointed, and we are so proud of her. Here is a short clip.
Amira: This generation has been forged in fire. They are taking the torch and are ready to burn it all down, to blaze their own trail. Your categories could not contain them. Your expectations are not their limit.
Shireen: Brenda?
Brenda: The NCAA women's basketball winner, the South Carolina Gamecocks, who defeated UConn 64-49 to win their second title.
Shireen: Jess, tell me more about that.
Jessica: Aliyah Boston, who racked up 30 double doubles this season, won all the postseason awards, Associated Press player of the year, Naismith player and defensive player of the year, and Final Four most outstanding player, which makes sense given that she is the first player to average at least 15 points and 15 rebounds in the tournament for an NCAA champion. It is going to be fun to watch her at the next level.
Shireen: Brenda, tell me about the coach.
Brenda: Dawn Staley, Naismith coach of the year, but also now a two time national championship coach and the first Black head coach in Division I basketball history to win multiple national championships.
Shireen: Can I get a drumroll, please?
[drumroll]
Our torchbearers for the week are Australia, who won the women's Cricket World Cup final over England. It was held in Christchurch, New Zealand, and Australia was 356/5 and they beat England which were at 285, by 71 runs. This is amazing. You know, cricket has blown up all over the world, but to see it competing at this level, they had stadiums with thousands and thousands of people in it! It was exhilarating. The time difference was a little weird, but I do also want to thank Shane Thomas for constantly sending me tweets of catches. There are memes, like Hypebeast is one account you should follow that literally was capturing all the incredible fielding of these cricket players, and then jumping through the air. It was just so incredible.
And I just want to say, to our friends in Australia, that we see and hear the exhilaration. There was a lot of excitement in women's sports. It's really fun when you're in a position to have so much, so many torchbearers potentially, and so many honorable mentions, but we really wanted to hold this up. Congratulations to Australia. I mean, you know, India was incredible. Pakistan was incredible. It was just a really riveting tournament, and we just want to hats off to Australia. It feels so good to go into what's good after that hype. [laughter] I just love that. Also, Australia's uniforms are this gorgeous canary yellow, and I just love that. I feel like I want to get us all Australian cricket uniforms. Although my Pakistan friends would be like, what are you doing? But like, I still think that we could.
Brenda: They’re still sticking it to the empire.
Shireen: There's still…You’re right. [laughs] Brenda, tell me what's good. I love it when she's sticking it to the empire.
Jessica: Brenda giggling over her pun is amazing.
Brenda: [laughs] I don't even think it's a right pun. It's a mixed sports metaphor. Do they call it sticks? I thought it was bats.
Shireen: Yes, they have an umpire. It's an umpire that they have. Bren, tell me what's good.
Brenda: So, I watched the Academy Awards sometimes, but I've never seen the movies in time. And so that's always kind of difficult for me. But the Grammys I feel ready for and I actually really enjoy. And so last night Brandi Carlile was on, and she is just so incredible. And I love that all these people who also are huge fans of watching it for people like Olivia Rodrigo get to then see Brandi Carlile and Jon Batiste, like, people that they might not have on iHeartRadio every 20 seconds. So I really just loved that. And they were so wonderful and their performances were so wonderful. And also Justin Bieber is so wonderful. [laughs] Lest you think that my musical tastes are in any way only highbrow. He was fantastic. And I loved the leather pants that he's really committed to, both on tour and now at the Grammys. They’re like baggy leather pants, which is a whole strange look that…I don't know. I mean, what doesn’t work for him? I'm not sure. But that was really incredible. Jon Batiste was so good.
And, let's see…Oh yeah. It's Luna's birthday this week. That is my middle child. My favorite book, The Sound and the Fury, which I have a tattoo of, takes place on four dates. One of which is her birthday, April 7th. It's also Billie Holiday's birthday. And so I feel like it's really charmed, and I'm really excited to do fun birthday stuff with Luna. Happy birthday, Luna!
Shireen: Happy birthday, Luna. That's like the longest what's good Brenda's ever had in almost five years. I love this energy right now. [Brenda laughs] Usually you're like, ugh… [laughs]
Brenda: I have brain fog because I'm recovering from COVID, which I guess is also what's good, that I'm recovering. But definitely there's a lot of real fog, perhaps, going on. Monday morning, post-COVID.
Shireen: You're beautiful and brilliant, Brenda. Brenda and Jessica, Burn It All Down, and Lindsay and Amira, and Tressa and Shelby are my what's good, as always, the Burn It All Down team. I got a lot of joy in seeing Lindsay at the Final Four. And what was really fun for me was I have a very dear friend named Claire Hanna, who was covering the Final Four for TSN–
Jessica: And they did a little video together!
Shireen: They did a video and they sent me a selfie.
Jessica: Claire’s a flamethrower, she's been on the show.
Shireen: Claire has been on the show. I love them both. I screamed when last night they sent me…Look how beautiful this photo is.
Jessica: It’s beautiful. They're beautiful.
Shireen: They’re really fucking beautiful. And those of you who may remember, when I went to go see my first curling tournament, I went with Claire and her boyfriend, Kirk, who is a curler. So it doesn't get more exciting than this. Everything I talk about eventually comes back to curling in one way or another. But anyways, point is, I just loved seeing Lindsay there. I thought her newsletter last night about covering the coverage was incredible. If you haven't read the latest Power Plays, please do that. I know everything I knew about it, because I was so wrapped up in women's hockey for the last couple of weeks and will permanently probably stay there because I love women's hockey, but I was so grateful that there's colleagues out there doing this work, colleagues that I know. I've also listened to every episode of American Prodigies and I am obsessed with that. I’m as emphatic about that as I am about Burn It All Down.
Brenda: It’s really good.
Shireen: It’s so fucking good. But I do think my favorite episode is episode six, because of the moms. I have a thing with moms. It was wonderful to listen to, and now this essay. I have a really exciting thing coming up. Black Girl Hockey Club is doing a takeover of Toronto, and I'm so excited. Renee Hess is coming and a lot of Black Girl Hockey Club members, and we're doing a panel which will probably be the first ever panel on hockey with only Black women. And I've been honored to host it. I've been given this privilege and honor, and I'm so excited. It is a closed event. It's not open to public just because of capacity, but it's just one of these things that sometimes I sit back and go, what is my life? So, I'm really, really, really excited about that. And Renee's coming to town and we're going to hang out and. I just can't wait because I love her so dearly.
It was also Mustafa, my youngest, his 16th birthday. Happy birthday to coco bear. He's 16. He's my baby. He's going to go get his beginner's permit. And probably just to like troll his older brother, Sallahuddin, who does not yet have his G1 beginner's license. And I, you know, according to my best friend Eren, I enable him by taking him everywhere constantly. I do love those car rides with him, but also this man needs to fucking get a license. Lastly, it's Ramadan. Love Ramadan. I love this month. It makes me feel happy. Jihad is actually in her midterm, so she opened her fast with her cousin Yasmin – they go to university together – on the floor of her room, and she sent me photos of them breaking their fast together. And I'm so glad she has a community of really incredible young women around her that are a strength and a source of community, which is what I also get to in Ramadan. And it's so important. Good luck to all the students out there. I know it's a tough time for you in your finals, but you'll get through it. And you know, one thing at a time. And yay. Jess?
Jessica: Wow. That's a lot to follow up with. Yeah. I mean, of course American Prodigies is on my what's good. We did the last big tracking session last week, which feels really bittersweet. I've loved working on this project and it'll be nice to have time back [laughs] from not working on it anymore. But yeah, episode seven dropped this morning. So if you go listen right now, you'll hear me in it, because sadly it's about abuse in gymnastics. And so I'm there as an expert, but you'll also hear me in episode nine, we do a wrap up where I talk to Amira about doing the entire season. It's really lovely and beautiful.
I also finished a huge project last week. It came out with USA Today. The pieces titled ‘They’ve had 50 years to figure it out’: Title IX disparities in major college sports haven’t gone away. And that was just months in the making. USA Today is doing actually a huge investigative package. This is just the first piece. I had to look at a lot of numbers and create a lot of spreadsheets – not my forte! So I feel very proud to have participated. There's very cool databases in there where you can see how different schools spend money – public schools, because we're getting public data – spend money on men's and women's collegiate teams that are similar. So, basketball teams, softball, baseball, tennis, golf, swimming. It’s really an amazing project. It took a ton of people. I think at one point I was in an editorial meeting with 14 people. So, USA Today threw a lot of resources, and we were A1 on the paper on Friday, top of the fold.
Shireen: Yay!
Jessica: So that was really thrilling. I'm going to the University of Idaho next week. I'll be speaking on the evening of April 12th, Tuesday. When I have more concrete details, I'll be tweeting about them. And then I just wanted to mention, so, I also am recovering from COVID. So, yay. And thanks to telemedicine and antiviral meds. I'm doing okay and my family is doing just fine. But I watched a ton of stuff, [laughs] like a lot. So I just want to shout out to the second season of Starstruck on HBO. I absolutely love that show. I watched all of Bridgeton in one go the day that it came out. Shireen, Amira and I will be talking about that for Patreon. There's a sports tie in, we promise. Aaron and I just finished Our Flag Means Death on HBO last night, which is like the gay pirate romance you didn't know you needed. And so just love all the romance stuff. Thank you so much to the world for putting this out right now when I needed it so much. So, there you go.
Shireen: We are watching the NWSL this week, and highlights of all the really cool stuff that happened over the weekend! I'm sure men are playing sports somewhere. [laughs]
Jessica: I'm sure. Yeah. Good guess.
Shireen: [laughs] This is my professional opinion. That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find the link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And thank you to our patrons. Your support really means the world. If you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. And as Brenda always says, burn on and not out.