Episode 9: “Good day, sir”

In Episode 9 of Burn It All Down, Shireen Ahmed, Jessica Luther, and Lindsay Gibbs discuss Colin Kaepernick…again and John McEnroe’s comments about Serena. Then, Jessica interviews Stephanie Yang about her piece last week at SB Nation on sexism in coaching in women’s soccer. Plus, you’ll hear The Burn Pile and Badass Woman of the Week!

Intro~  Colin Kaepernick is a popular QB and wanted to bring attention to the crisis of racial injustice and police violence against Black communities (1:27) and has donated more than $700,000 to charity (1:38) Former coach Chip Kelly and 49ers GM John Lynch both went on record supporting him and his game (2:18) Why media goes after Kap (3:40) There are so many bad quarterbacks in the NFL but Kap is unsigned (5:45) History of maligning Black athletes in America (6:55) Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf on Kap (8:49) Lie that NFL will do whatever it takes to make money (11:03) Lindsay on her Think Progress piece of anthem protests in schools (13:00) We love Serena Williams zone (14:00) John McEnroe acts like a sexist ass (14:15) Demeaning women in sports with vacuous conversation (17:12) Implication that best player has to be a male (19:00)  Jessica’s interview with Stephanie Yang (22:53) Burn Pile- Jessica burns FIFA and corruption in the World Cup bidding process (37:17) Lindsay burns the Larry Nassar case and the problem of systemic sexual abuse of athletes in USA gymnastics (39:48) Shireen burns NFL legends partaking new political propaganda campaign in Israel (43:15) Badass Woman Of The Week (45:30)- Mithali Raj of Team India at the Women’s World Cup in cricket; Honorable Mentions- Alysia Montana (47:22) Whitney Osuigwe (49:30) Shariah Harris (50:11) Christine Sinclair (51:50)

Links

Colin Kaepernick: https://www.theshadowleague.com/story/former-coach-chip-kelly-s-got-kaep-s-back, 
https://sports.yahoo.com/mahmoud-abdul-rauf-protested-anthem-years-kaepernick-remains-resolute-174737697.html,
 http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-mahmoud-abdul-rauf-colin-kaepernick-20170627-story.html, 
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/abdul-rauf-continues-anthem-protest-ice-cube-big3-league-article-1.3276775, 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybarca/2017/06/27/49ers-gm-kaepernick-fully-committed-to-being-in-the-nfl/#57218bf26ebe, and https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybarca/2017/06/27/49ers-gm-kaepernick-fully-committed-to-being-in-the-nfl/&refURL=&referrer=#57218bf26ebe

On JohnMcEnroe being an ass: http://globalnews.ca/news/3558489/serena-williams-john-mcenroe-tennis/, 
http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/19734541/john-mcenroe-says-serena-williams-no-700-world-played-men-circuit

Stephanie Yang’s piece for SB Nation: http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/19734541/john-mcenroe-says-serena-williams-no-700-world-played-men-circuit

Burn Pile:

Corruption in FIFA: http://deadspin.com/fifa-finally-releases-full-world-cup-corruption-report-1796454359 and https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/padejn/what-fifa-whitewashed-from-the-garcia-report

Larry Nasser and sexual abuse in USA gymnastics: https://thinkprogress.org/report-gymnastics-abuse-6099c92098c2

Former NFL players as pawns in Israeli politics: http://www.alternet.org/culture/israel-using-nfl-legends-unwitting-pawns-insidious-new-propaganda-campaign

BAWOTW: Mithali Raj

• http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/skipper-mithali-raj-becomes-the-only-indian-cricketer-to-score-7-consecutive-odi-fifties-shatters-world-record/articleshow/59311140.cms

• http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40398462

Honorable Mentions:

Alysia Montana: https://www.instagram.com/p/BVsabp_DXMK/

Whitney Osuigwe: http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/19719224/french-open-junior-champ-whitney-osuigwe-just-15-eyes-wimbledon-bigger-things

Shariah Harris: http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-polo-history-0628-20170629-story.html

Christine Sinclair: http://www.tsn.ca/sinclair-appointed-order-of-canada-1.793181

Transcript

Shireen: Welcome to this week's episode of Burn It All Down. It may not be the sport and feminism podcast you want, but it's the sport and feminism podcast you need. On this week's panel we have Lindsay Gibbs, sportswriter for ThinkProgress, who focuses on the intersection of sports and politics in Washington, DC; Jessica Luther, independent writer and author of Unsportsmanlike Conduct: College Football and the Politics of Rape – she’s in Austin, Texas. And I'm Shireen Ahmed, freelance sportswriter in Toronto, Canada. This week, we'll discuss Colin Kaepernick getting support from 49ers staff – and of course getting flack from haters – John McEnroe running his mouth, and Jessica interviews Stephanie Yang about sexism in soccer coaching. Jess, would you like to start us off? 

Jessica: Yeah. Hi, y’all. How are you doing? So, this week, we're going to talk about Colin Kaepernick. For those who don't know, just in case, Kaepernick is a 29 year old professional quarterback who made waves last season when he chose to first sit and then kneel pre-game when the United States national Anthem was played at football games. So, he repeatedly and patiently told anyone who asked that he was making that choice because he wanted to draw attention to racial injustice in this country, and especially police violence against Black Americans. He's also put his money where his mouth is. As of early last month, he's donated $700,000 of a promised $1 million to organizations across the country working towards social justice. This includes places like Meals on Wheels, Assata's Daughters, Black Veterans for Social Justice and the Center for Reproductive Rights. 

So, he left his former team, the San Francisco 49ers, at the end of last season. And he remains unsigned. Huh? Wonder why? 

So, the narrative, of course, is that Kaepernick is toxic because his views turn off NFL fans – by which of course everyone means white fans. But also, he had the 17th most popular jersey during the month of May. So, someone likes him. Chip Kelly, who was Kap's coach last season in San Francisco, told ESPN's Adam Schefter this past week, “We heard from the outside about what a distraction it is, except those people weren't in our locker room, and it was never a distraction, and Kap never brought that and turned it into a circus or whatever people think.” The 49ers general manager, John Lynch, also went on record this past week to say, “I would tell you, with my conversations with Colin, he is fully committed to wanting to be in this league.” Lynch went on to say that he told Kaepernick, “I think the way you could best help yourself is to not have someone talk for you. Not have statements, but go sit down and do an interview and let people know exactly where you stand, because he makes a compelling case as to how bad he wants to be in the league when you talk to him.” 

Okay. So, none of this, of course, from Lynch or Kelly, inoculates Kaepernick from media thinkpieces, like Yahoo’s Dan Wetzel who, a couple of weeks ago, wrote a piece titled, “Colin Kaepernick is making his choice: activism over the NFL.” [Shireen groans] Of course, this…You know, what Kelly said, what Lynch said, this doesn't sell Kaepernick to the white male owners and general managers of NFL teams. So, I know we've talked about him, Kaepernick and everything around him before, but like, where are you guys with this story at this point? Like, how are you feeling about all this shit with Kaepernick? 

Shireen: Linz? 

Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, I am just sitting here, appalled by the conversation that's going on. I think, like you said, Jess, what you're having is a lot of these I would say institutionalized football reporters, the Peter Kings, the Albert Breers, the people who live their life dealing with these sources and dealing with access journalism, essentially acting as a mouthpiece for the league, justifying why Colin Kaepernick isn't signed. We've heard so many ridiculous excuses coming from these reporters, coming from sources, whether it be that he doesn't really want to play – which he has said is not true – whether it be that his vegan diet is making him too weak, which, people who actually train him say he's in the best shape of his life, you know? I mean, time and time again, you're seeing…Whether it be “he can't play anymore, he only will take a starting position.” Well, we've also heard from his camp that that's not true, you know?  It's just time and time again you're hearing excuse after excuse, and the dwindling amount of respect that I had for the league…

And look, I'm a fan of a team with a vocal Black quarterback, not in the same way that Kaepernick is vocal. I'm talking about Cam Newton. But I've seen up close and personal, because I'm a huge Carolina Panthers fan and follow the news to a sickening degree. [laughs] But I see how every couple of weeks there's a story coming from an outside source about what a “bad leader” Cam Newton is, how he's “getting paid too much,” he's “too much of a showboat.” There are letters to the editor in Charlotte. I see the scrutiny he's under, and he's trying to tone down the politics of it – which I don't agree with, but I understand. And so the way Kaepernick is being treated is just appalling. He should absolutely have a job. You guys, there are so many bad quarterbacks in the NFL! [laughter] There are so many bad quarterbacks in the NFL. And it's infuriating. It's despicable. 

I was really, really, really disappointed with the Seattle Seahawks. I thought that they were going to be the team that was going to sign him. It would be in a backup role to Russell Wilson, but Seattle is a very progressive city. Pete Carroll seems to like to let his athletes have a mind of their own, be able to speak their truth. But I have some suspicions based on some of the research I've done as to why they didn't go forward with it, which might have more to do with the dynamics of the locker room, and the locker room not loving Russell Wilson as much and not wanting to give the locker room a reason to rally against their franchise quarterback, which I understand, but it's just sickening. It’s just gross. Shireen or Jess, somebody?

Shireen: I think that, well, I know that Colin Kaepernick is the only reason I own an NFL jersey. Like, he drew me in because I like my sport with politics, is what I'm trying to say. Also, this brings us back to Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. I've seen a lot of writing about him recently. And this isn't new, like, this type of blackballing and maligning players and prominent Black athletes is not new, and it's not new to American sports culture. We've seen it before. And I really liked that Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf is coming out there and speaking about his experience. And I've been following him for a long time, and he has been far more vocal. I mean, obviously he's been scarred because, you know, his career was derailed. But he's been far more vocal in the last couple of years, and a lot of that is because of the support that perhaps I'm just hypothesizing here, that he's seen Kap get. And I didn't realize that his jersey was still selling so well. I'm excited to hear that, because I believe last year it was the top selling jersey. 

And just like really, really quick, I think it's important to also recognize that…I saw this tweet and it really hit me, that we're still not really far off from the death of Muhammad Ali. And he was revered and lauded in sports media for doing the same thing that Colin Kaepernick is doing. And I just think sort of the juxtaposition of those two and how they're treated is…I mean, don't get me wrong, the history of how Muhammad Ali at the time was treated…But have we not learned anything? Clearly not. I mean, for me it's appalling that the op-ed pieces, whether they're about Cam Newton and whether he's showboating, like, we hear it about PK Subban, and we hear it about Black athletes. We don't hear it about white athletes showboating. I've never read a piece. Can somebody, some listener…I would love for somebody to send me a piece about a white athlete showboating, because I've never read it. 

Lindsay: [laughs] It doesn't exist. 

Shireen: It doesn't exist. 

Jessica: Yeah, I think Abdul-Rauf is so interesting right now because he's actually back. So, he is part of the Big3 league, which is this new 3-on-3 league that I think Ice Cube is running. Is that correct, everybody?

Shireen: Yeah. I love Ice Cube. [laughs]

Jessica: He's back doing his protests that he did while he was playing in the NBA. And I think that Lindsay might have some quotes that Abdul-Rauf said about Kaepernick recently.

Lindsay: Yeah. For ThinkProgress earlier this week, I kind of wrote about this. He told the New York Daily News, back when the anthem protests started, that he expected for Colin Kaepernick to get blackballed. This weekend at the Big3 opening, he said, “He's been blackballed. I'm not surprised. As soon as it happened, I expected it. The same thing happened to me.” And this is what he said to The Undefeated in an interview from September last year. This is, once again, right after Kaepernick started his protest. So, let me just read you this quote, because it's just really stuck to me. “They begin to try to put you in vulnerable positions. They play with your minutes, trying to mess up your rhythm. Then they set you more. Then what it looks like is, well, this guy just doesn't have it anymore. So we trade him. It's like a setup, you know, trying to set you up to fail. And so when they get rid of you, they can blame it on that, as opposed to it was really because he took these positions. They don't want these types of examples to spread, so they've got to make an example of individuals like this.” He told that to The Undefeated in September of last year. And that's exactly pretty much what we've seen happen to Kaepernick.

Jessica: Wow. That's really powerful.

Shireen: It is really powerful. I'm grateful that he's shared that and is on the scene. Like, I love him. I am so grateful to Ice Cube, because we're so close and everything, right? Like, me and Ice Cube. [laughter]

Lindsay: Just call him Ice. Just call him Ice. [laughs]

Shireen: I wanna be friends with him so badly. My husband's like, it's never going to happen. [Lindsay laughs] So, if he's listening, call me. [laughs] But no, I think that this is so incredibly powerful, and the fact that this happened 20 years ago to Abdul-Rauf is still relevant. And that's the scary part. Like I said, I don't think we've learned anything.

Jessica: And I just think anytime we talk about Kapernick and what's going on in the NFL, it’s really important for us to say again what a lie it is that the league will do whatever it takes to make money, because that's clearly not true. And Kaepernick has shown that, that they have limits to what they will accept in order to make money off of somebody. And this whole thing makes me so angry, that it seems so blatant what is happening here, and people will buy any excuse, as Lindsay was talking about earlier. The whole thing about his vegan diet. [laughter] I mean, anything! Other than that he is threatening because he's pushing on systemic inequality and he's being vocal about it and he is a Black man doing that. And I just think we have to keep saying this over and over again about what he's really revealing in this moment about the league but also about this country. 

Shireen: Sure. Linz? 

Lindsay: Yeah, I just wanted to quickly reiterate, there are so many people in the league who have been accused of domestic violence and sexual assault, and they're welcome back to their teams with open arms – and not just the ones who are super talented and franchise players. But I also want to point out that Kaepernick's protests spread all across the country. They spread to high schools, to middle schools. You had middle schools having conversations about race and police brutality and what it means to be Black in America because of Colin Kaepernick. It's incredible, the work he did and the impact that he's had. And I hope that he gets to continue to do that work and gets to continue to…I want him to continue to make money because he's doing good things with his money. So I just hope that this can stop.

Shireen: Before we move on, Lindsay, you had a fantastic piece about tracking the high school movements, the anthem protests, did you not? For ThinkProgress?

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. So, I spent about three to four months last year with an intern pretty dutifully checking and tracking all the protests as they spread across the country. And it was one of my favorite pieces I've done – and spoiler alert, I've got an update on that piece coming in the next month or two at ThinkProgress. We're going to kind of wrap that up. Things got a little crazy at ThinkProgress after the election, and I never got to do the wrap up that I had planned on. [laughs] But but it's been really amazing to revisit that piece over the past couple of months and continue to see all the ways that these protests have spread and just the conversations that have been happening. I mean, I've seen so many schools that have had special talks and special assemblies about police violence because one of their football players kneeled because Colin Kaepernick was kneeling. It’s opened up these really tough conversations in places that usually don't have them.

Shireen: Let's move on to the next topic. We all here at Burn It All Down love Serena Williams, and so this is a very clear We Love Serena zone. So, our next topic is John McEnroe, and in an interview with NPR to promote his new book called But Seriously, McEnroe decided that he would talk about Serena Williams. And the quote is he actually wanted to reiterate how he felt about her. And he said, “Serena is the best female ever. No question.” But when McEnroe was pushed a little by interviewer Lulu Garcia-Navarro on why he qualified the gender, he explained that Serena Williams would probably rank 700 in the men's circuit. So, Serena responded gracefully, as she does, via Twitter. And her reply was, “Dear John, I adore and respect you, but please keep me out of your statements that are not factually based.” And she also followed up with another tweet that read, “I've never played anyone ranked there, nor do I have time. Respect me and my privacy as I'm trying to have a baby. Good day, sir.” So– 

Lindsay: Can we just take a second? “Good day, sir” is just the best ending to that. [laughs]

Shireen: I mean, I love that she started with “Dear John,” [laughter] because it's basically what it is, like, goodbye. 

Lindsay: Right? Just the lead in kicker there, as a writer, I just have to admire. [laughs]

Shireen: It's just, I mean, I would love to hear your thoughts. I know you both are huge tennis fans. I was appalled, because I'm like, he is famous for having temper tantrums. And I just sorta feel like this was another one. And he was on Morning Joe not apologizing. And I think that that irritated me more, but he might be lapping up all the attention. You know, I just would love to hear what y'all think.

Lindsay: I think that…Three years ago, I wrote a guide to ending sexism in tennis. And number eight for that guide was: stop questioning whether female pros can beat the male pros. It doesn't matter. [laughs] And I just want to quote myself here: “Seriously suggesting that the only way for a woman to prove herself as an athlete is for her to compete against a man is insulting and stupid. Don't do that.” [laughs] Okay. I'm done.

Shireen: But haven't we we already done this, with the Battle of the Sexes? Like, haven’t we already been there with Billie Jean King? I thought this was shelved back when. Like, just, let's not do this. I mean, I for one would have loved to see Serena…I mean, obviously she's pregnant. I still have no doubt that she could probably beat him while pregnant. But, you know…

Lindsay: I don’t even care. I don't care. Like, -I don't care. I mean, honestly, the Battle of Sexes was a huge cultural moment because women were trying to prove that they could even play sports, and what Billie Jean King did in that match was phenomenal. But you know, look, it's different. And I mean, it mattered that she did that then, but it's not the barrier I'm interested in. I mean, when you Google “Could Serena Williams…” and you don't even have to finish the name Williams before the Google search fills it in, “Could Serena beat a man?” “Could Serena beat Roger Federer?” “Could she beat Nadal?” “Could she beat Andy Murray?” Like, this is what Google…Why are people obsessed with this? Like, we either respect female athletes or we don't. And I think that what we do with this conversation is we keep looking for ways to discredit and demean women in sports and put them in their place, especially in sports like tennis, where the women make comparable money to the men – not equal, because it's not equal across the board, even in women's tournaments – but it it's comparable money. They're comparable amounts of celebrities, in Serenas case a greater celebrity than most of the men. And the men feel really threatened by this, and so this is what you end up with. And it’s just so…Ugh! [laughs] 

Jessica: Yeah. Because I mean, as Lindsay probably knows better than the rest of us, they’re still having conversations about whether or not women in tennis should be getting equal pay at the grand slams, right? And we should be clear, that's the one place where they get equal pay. And I mean, what was it? Was it last year that Novak Djokovic sort of brought up, in the midst of another controversy in tennis, like, maybe the men should be getting paid more? And it was like, dude, you're doing fine. [laughs] Like, why is this even a conversation we're still having? And so then, on top of that, the fact, like you said, Shireen, that Battle of the Sexes was what, 1973? And here we are with the same conversation. And of course what's happening here is that McEnroe said she's the best female player ever. And the NPR interviewer was like, “Best female?” And it was at that point when he said this thing about, you know, being the 700th best player on the male circuit, because the entire implication is that the best player has to be male, that like, there can't be a woman who is the best player. 

And that's always the implication when we have this discussion. And that's why it's so frustrating. And that's why people get – especially women – really angry that we're even having this, because there's so much embedded. And for someone like McEnroe to make this statement and then to go on this tour in response to that, of like, “I don't know why everyone's upset about this.” [laughter] I mean, it's so disingenuous. Like, you know exactly why. You know exactly what's implied in that conversation. And it just makes me so angry. I want to read a tweet that Martina Navratilova put out, and she said, “Here's the deal. Women don't ever need to be defined by being compared to men, ever. We are pretty amazing in our own right, okay, John et al?” And I just think, yes, what Martina said.

Shireen: I love Martina so much. 

Lindsay: She's everything. She’s everything. 

Shireen: One of the highlights of my social media life is that she retweeted a piece that I wrote and I was very excited about that. 

Lindsay: I have never been more jealous of you.

Shireen: I screenshotted it. And I think she wrote, “Fuck yeah” before. I was like, oh my god, that's so great. And Ramadan is over, by the way, everybody. I can swear again. [laughter] So, any last words?

Lindsay: Yeah. I just want to say, this is another example…The whole thing McEnroe is doing is trying to sell books and get attention. And so what he's doing is he's the one right now riding on Serena's coattails. He's trying to insult her and put her down to drum up publicity. And that makes me the most angry, is that this is so transparent and it's working for him. [laughs] That's what just infuriates me. And look, Courtney Nguyen, who works for WTA, who’s a good friend of mine, she had a great point because someone was pointing out that when Jimmy Connors was selling his book, he wrote…Actually, I think this is how Jess and I first connected, because I read her piece on this. But he wrote about when he was with Chrissie at the time about an abortion that she had and a discussion about abortion. And it was pretty gross because she did not know that was coming out. This is Chrissie Evert I'm talking about. She didn't know that story was coming out. He used it for a lot of attention, for a lot of controversy. And so what Courtney was saying is here's another point of a male tennis legend dragging a female tennis legend through the mud to try and drum up publicity sales.

Shireen: Wow. Jess?

Jessica: Yeah, I don't really have anything else. I mean, I do. I could probably talk about this forever. But you know, this all happened at the same time that people were talking about Lindsey Vonn, the downhill skier, gold medalist. She's one of the world's best Alpine…I’m not going to get all the terms right here. But she has said that she wants to race against the men. And you know, this complicates the discussion of sort of where all this fits together. But I mean, I do think that female athletes should have the space to just be athletes on their own. But also like, if Lindsey Vonn wants to race with the men, I'm all for it. I don’t see this sort of tension here. And I think it goes back to what Lindsay said – you either respect female athletes or you don't.

Shireen: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So, moving on to the next thing, Jess, can you tell us a little bit about what your conversation with Stephanie Yang was like?

Jessica: Yeah. So, this week I interviewed Stephanie Yang. She wrote a really great piece for SB Nation titled, Soccer’s ugly sexism is keeping women from coaching the beautiful game. So, it's all about the reasons why we don't see a lot of women coaching soccer. And it was a really interesting conversation. 

All right, Jessica here, and I am joined by Steph Yang. Steph, do you want to give the listeners…Do you want to tell us who you are? 

Steph: Sure. I write about soccer freelance, mostly for SB Nation. I covered the women's national team for Stars and Stripes FC and the Boston Breakers for The Bent Musket. And I do a women's soccer podcast called 2 Drunk Fans.

Jessica: That's awesome. And so this last week you had a huge long form feature at SB Nation titled, Soccer’s ugly sexism is keeping women from coaching the beautiful game, and we'll of course put this up in the show note links. It's an amazing piece. It covers so much about what's going on with women coaches within soccer. And I just wanted to start by quoting some stats that you actually give in the piece. And so, “Of the 10 teams in the National Women's Soccer League, the NWSL, only one team, the Seattle Reign, has a female head coach. Out of the top 50 ranked DI women's programs in 2016, 14 had female head coaches. In 2015, across all divisions, 338 women's soccer programs out of 1047 had female head coaches. The National Soccer Coaches Association of America has a membership of over 30,000, but only 15% are female.” There's something very staggering reading that. I mean, in the US, women's soccer is much more popular, at least in my world, than men's soccer is. So, it's jarring to see it sort of blatantly put out like that. So, why don't you give us a rundown? Tell us about the sexism that is making these numbers true.  

Steph: Well, there's I think two things happening here. One is from within and one's from without. So, within soccer itself, there's a lot of structural inequality, but I believe that that's very heavily influenced from without by social expectations of women in the workplace, especially in a traditionally male pursuit like sports. And, when you combine them together, there's not a lot of room for advancement for women from within, unless they're really good at networking or the talent is just so undeniable that you can't tell them no. And then you combine that with, on the outside, you know, if they want to have a family, then they are expected to be able to perform their job. And usually women in the United States have to take on the majority of the duties in child-rearing. You're lucky if you find a partner who splits that 50-50 with you. And so it just combines into this weird, toxic miasma where it's hard to get your foot in the door, and then it's hard to advance, and then if you do advance, you can't do anything else but that. And then once you're at the top, people still are like, oh, how did you get here?

Jessica: One of the things that you start off with pretty early in the piece is about licensing, which is something I have honestly never thought about, even in my own writing about coaching and sort of how people get into it. Can you explain how licensing is part of the issue here? 

Steph: Sure. So, in the United States, the primary licensing body for head coaches or for coaches in general is US Soccer. You can also get licensed through the NSCAA. But US Soccer these days really prefers her own system because the thing is they used to allow some equivalency. If you had gone through NSCAA, then you could substitute some of that for US Soccer, and it would qualify you for their higher level coaching courses which goes by alphabet. So, you start at the bottom with F and of course at the top you have the A. And they just introduced a new thing called the Pro A license. But it's a very prohibitive system in terms of time and money, and for a lot of people, getting your foot in the door, you know, you don't have a lot of experience. If you have this license, even at the D or the C level, it's a way to say I am accredited by an institution that you trust, I have a certain level of training, and you can trust that I know certain basics as well. 

So, you know, it's like getting your undergraduate degree and then going up the levels where it's like, what were you doing for these years? I don't see the work experience. Oh, I was getting my degree. So, it's the same thing there. It can help you get your foot in the door at the club level, or maybe even at the college level. And you know, just as you go up the ranks, it just costs more and more money, it takes more and more time, and there's fewer and fewer women in the ranks. Every woman I talked to you about it was like, yeah, I had three other women in the course, I was very lucky. But the course had like 25, 30, 40 guys. And it's like, really? You felt lucky that there was three other women there? So, it's prohibitive socially, it's prohibitive cost-wise, especially when you consider women tend to make less on average than men, no matter what profession. For example, the A license itself I think is about $4,000. The C license can cost…I found it for $1000, but it depends on region. If you're in a big soccer region like California, I think it can cost like $2,500. 

And then, you know, it's the time as well. Usually a lot of coaches, if you're at the C level, you're still not making a full-time living from it. So you've got to travel for a week. You've got to put yourself up in a hotel. You have to be able to take that time off from work. If your work isn't willing to subsidize the cost of your license. Now, a lot of places, they will subsidize the cost of coaching classes. But when I was talking to April Heinrichs from US Soccer, the implication was, she said, women need to start asking to have their coaching courses covered. So that, to me, implied that she sees women who are doing all the work to get accredited, but they’re not willing to ask their employer, hey, will you give me the time off? Will you cover the cost? So, once again, you know, structural inequality just combines to make it a lot harder for women to advance up the ranks here.

Jessica: What led you to write this piece? Did you have like a certain moment where you realized like someone should write about this? Was there a catalyst for you? 

Steph: I don't know. It was probably stewing for a while. It probably started with the realization that there's very few female coaches in NWSL, National Women's Soccer League. It started off with, I think, just two. It was Laura Harvey and Cindy Parlow Cone. And Cindy Cone is like, you know, her name is pretty legendary in women's soccer, and that's the level of accreditation that you had to have in order to get in the door. Whereas you had random guys coming over, like, I've never heard of this dude before. Or like male assistant coaches who are allowed to move up. Oh, they also had Lisa Cole at the Breakers. But then Cone left. I think she voluntarily stopped coaching because she was like, it's such a grind. Cole got fired. And then for the past four years, it's just been Laura Harvey. So I was like, what's the deal? You would assume that in a women's league they would be looking for top female talent. I just can't accept that, out of 10 teams, if they were all equally looking for qualified male and female candidates, only one found a female head coach, you know?

Jessica: Right. I mean, especially in the US, like, and of all sports, soccer seems like the hardest one to argue that there aren't women that are good enough to coach, right? Like, it seems just like a really difficult argument to make here. A big chunk of this piece deals not just with sexism, but also racism. And I feel like a lot of our discussion within especially US soccer, women's soccer, rarely engages in the issue that race plays in how structural decisions are made. How does race factor into the issue of who's coaching teams? 

Steph: Well, at two levels. One being that American soccer has a pay to play system, which is exactly what it sounds like. And as we all know, in the United States, there's kind of a disparity in the average income between white families, Hispanic families, Black families. So, in general, spreading out the effect over certain demographics, you tend to see a lot more white children in soccer than you do see children of any other race. And so at the bottom level, you've got kids already being locked out of soccer on the basis of price or ability. Because youth soccer's incredibly expensive. You want to compete at the elite level, your parents are gonna end up spending thousands of dollars a year on the sport for you. And that's travel, tournament fees, uniforms, all this stuff. So you can imagine a family making, you know, $30-40,000 a year, they’re easily gonna be locked out of the sport.

Jessica: Right.

Steph: So, first of all, that limits your pool. That's why you don't see a ton of Black players at the top. It's gotten a lot better recently, but as I was talking to some Black players themselves, older ones like Kia McNeill and Briana Scurry, they're like, we haven't seen that that's because US Soccer is opening up their arms to underserved populations. It's because Black families are increasingly able to get more of the pie in America, right? You have more Black families making higher average wages entering the middle-class themselves, and so they're able to access the system with money. It's not because there's any particular outreach to minority communities. So, the pool is limited. And then once you get in, of course, the system itself has biases against Black people. 

I don't think you can avoid that in the United States, no matter what profession you work in. You're always going to encounter people who have, you know, varying levels of bias against non-white people. And, you know, if you don't see Black women working in the game a lot, whether consciously or unconsciously, it’s just going to occur to you less to hire Black women for positions, right? Whether you're an active racist or just someone who's like, it just never occurred to me not to hire a white guy for this job, because I don’t see Black women in the game. Why should they think about it? So, yeah, it works on, you know, at the bottom level and at the top level. And so you're kind of just, you know, screwed. 

Jessica: Yeah. So like, all the things that are in play and sexism are just worse when you have this intersection of race and gender. So, let's end on a not sad note. [laughter] I don't want to say like happy, but definitely not sad. So, after researching and writing this piece, do you believe that this can get better? Is there a place where it's a little bit brighter? What do you see moving forward? 

Steph: Well, there has been some success for women at the top in coaching, which I think, as they become more prominent, it's just, you know, cultural turnover, where we went through the period before where with Title IX coming in and then men kind of going in for women's jobs. That created an imbalance. And I feel like we're slowly righting that imbalance just through the sheer force of gradual social change. Because you do have some top female coaches now who are pretty outspoken. You've got Amanda Cromwell at UCLA, Becky Burleigh down in Florida, Lesle Gallimore in Seattle. You know, any soccer fan now can rattle off a couple of very prominent female soccer coaches, at least in NCAA. And I think that's very promising that as these women are creating an example that, yes, a female coach can not only do a good job but can in some cases create a dynasty for you. I mean, colleges are very interested in dynasty. It does get better. I think also, you can look to the increasing popularity of the US women's national team. The more they win, the more people love them and the more people buy into women's soccer as a whole. So, I think you can look at the progress of the sport as a whole as kind of a positive, like, okay, one day we'll get there.

Jessica: You asked this question in your piece, but do we need a Rooney Rule in soccer for hiring?

Steph: I wouldn't mind it, because at some point you kind of have to force the issue, right? You can't always rely on people to gradually get it. That's not fair to the women who are looking for jobs now, who are qualified now. So I think it's absolutely a good idea. And, you know, maybe on a case by case basis, looking at the context of who's doing the hiring and for what. But I absolutely think that encouraging institutions, the NCAA, people affiliated with NSCAA, US Soccer, NWSL the W League, any league in the United States – if you are hiring for a position, absolutely. Like April Heinrichs says, the women are there. If you want to find a qualified female coach, all you have to do is commit to it. It's not that hard. 

Jessica: And so, last question: who is your favorite soccer player? 

Steph: Oh, I’m gonna get bollocked for this, because it's not an American. [Jessica laughs] It’s Christine Sinclair – she’s Canadian. She just got awarded an Order of Canada for, you know, being a really good Canadian, I guess. [laughter] 

Jessica: Shireen will be thrilled to hear this. 

Steph: Oh, absolutely.

Jessica: She’s one of her favorite people. Well, Steph, thank you so much. Thank you for this piece. And also thank you for your time today to talk about this. I really appreciate it. 

Steph: Thanks for having me on.

Shireen: Moving on to everyone's favorite part of the show, the burn pile. Jessica, would you like to go first?

Jessica: Yeah, always. So, we've talked repeatedly in the first two months of this podcast about the corruption that surrounds mega events like the World Cup and the Olympics and the problems with their governing bodies – FIFA and the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, respectively. So here's the latest. Okay. So, for 18 months, back in 2013/2014, former US Attorney Michael J. Garcia investigated the bidding process for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups. Now, those World Cups went to Russia and to Qatar, and they there's been lots of problems associated with those two places. And so instead of releasing the 430 page report in full, on November 13th, 2014, the chairman of FIFA’s ethics committee [Shireen laughs] published a summary of what is called the Garcia Report. 

So, here's how Aaron Gordon of Vice Sports – and an Aaron, he's one of my favorite reporters who covers the corruption in the IOC and FIFA. So, here's what Aaron Gordon wrote about what happened next. So, the chairman of the ethics committee “condensed Garcia's 18 month, 430 page investigation into 42 pages, and found that the bids were ‘in full compliance with the relevant provisions of the FIFA code of ethics.’ It took four hours after publication for Garcia to publicly reject the summary for containing ‘numerous materially incomplete and erroneous representations of the facts and conclusions.’ A month later, he quits his FIFA post condemning the organization as culturally corrupt and unfixable.” 

So, Gordon, he goes on to do a whole breakdown of the difference between the summary and the full report. The whole thing is excellent and I suggest you read it if you're interested in this topic. We’ll put the link in the show notes for you. But here's Gordon's general take on the two documents. “One is a complete and total indictment of FIFA’s culture and is generally embarrassing for FIFA on a corporate level, and every individual on a personal level. The other says everything is fine.” [laughter] I just love the way that Aaron writes about this. So isn’t this something? I mean, look, there’s no part of how FIFA works that isn't worthy of its own inclusion in the burn pile. So here I am, again, putting another piece of this in there. So, I just want to burn it. I want to burn it all again.

Shireen: Burn, light it up. Linz?

Lindsay: Yeah. So, I've got another report to talk to you guys about – so many fun reports. This one is on a report this week about the USA Gymnastics scandal and the way they have misstepped over the past few decades and completely failed to protect its athletes from sex abuse. This week, there was a 146 page Daniels Report, which was authored by former federal prosecutor Deborah J. Daniels. And she really makes it clear in this report that this is not one man. Larry Nassar, who was the former USA Gymnastics coach, who has been accused of sexual abuse by more than 80 people, and who is currently on trial in Michigan. And we talked a lot about Nassar in one of our first episodes, so you should definitely go back and listen to that. But this is really a systemic problem with USA Gymnastics. 

I went through and picked out some of the highlights for this, but just to quickly go over some of the things that appalled me the most. The abuse allegations were not at all taken seriously by the board of directors as there were whisperings of them over the past couple of decades. There is an ethics grievance and SafeSport committee on the USA Gymnastics board of directors that spent most of its time and meetings, this report found, discussing whether or not the board members were allowed to get salaries from other places and whether or not it would be a conflict of interest. So, that was what they were most concerned about! Which is really, really cool. The president of USA Gymnastics, who was Steve Penny throughout most of this, had far too much control over what happened with these official complaints. 

All the reports had to be filed in writing with the president. Then the president had the power to select the employee who would conduct the investigation. He had the power to determine the outcome of a complaint as well. Daniels wrote in the report, “A president who was not inclined to take reports of misconduct seriously, or who was concerned about tarnishing the reputation of the organization, or protecting a friend, would have the authority to dismiss the complaint or choose to not pursue it without the involvement of others.” There are a few other things. Basically nobody was trained on existing child abuse preventions. There was a permanently ineligible membership list that was established in 1990, but you could be convicted of criminal offenses for sexual abuse and still not beyond the list. 

Also, this list was not readily available, so it was very easy for people to hire people who were on this list without knowing that they were on this list. And if they did know that they were on this list, so if people got past step one and step two, which were already really horribly difficult steps to get through, you could still work around it. For example, that person could still work with gymnasts who were not training for official USA Gymnastics competitions within your club. To make everything worse, to really cap off this burn pile, while president Steve Penny finally resigned in March with a $1 million severance in hand, Paul Parilla, the chairman of the USA Gymnastics board of directors – so in other words, Penny's boss – still has his job. Burn.

Shireen: Burn it, burn, burn. My burn pile this week is a piece that Robert Silverman actually wrote for Alternet, and it was called Israel Is Using NFL Legends as Unwitting Pawns in an Insidious New Propaganda Campaign. And this was really interesting, this whole idea of using sport, you know, intertwining it with politics. And I mean, we all know what happened when there was a trip…I wrote about this for Mondoweiss. There was a trip that was supposed to happen and take NFL players, and it was Michael Bennett that was very vocal about it and wrote that he wasn't going. So, this particular trip was organized by Robert Kraft – everybody’s shudder. And so what ended up happening, the thing was done in the Kraft stadium, the first of its kind. And I think the problem that I have with it, other than the optics of a very awkward Benjamin Netanyahu trying to hold a football, was actually his reference to–

Lindsay: [laughing] Sorry, I’m just picturing that.

Shireen: Yeah, it's so bizarre. His reference to the players, in order to sort of connect with them. And what he said was, and I'm reading Robert Silverman now, “I'm sure that when you prepare for your games, you don't say, well, do I need to be strong, fast, nimble? Is that a question? Your game is no different than ours. The only difference is, if we lose, the consequences are immutable. And we've had enough of that in our history, so we won't let that happen again.” Now, my problem with this – and Robert's piece was excellent, I actually spoke to him about it – was it was really upsetting to liken a sport, like a major league sport, to what's happening in the Middle East. And sort of he was likening, you know, the situation and the tension to a football game, which I think is A) completely inappropriate, and B) a terrible metaphor. So, I mean, I read it. I wanted to burn it. Thank you for Robert to bring it to my attention. And I just want to flame it all up, because that's just not what needs to happen. 

Moving on to the happier things on the podcast, [laughs] our badass woman of the week. I’m really excited to actually say this. I'm not sure how many of our listeners know that right now the Women's World Cup of cricket is happening in the UK. And there was an incredible situation last week where Mithali Raj, the captain of India's cricket team, actually became the first and the only Indian cricketer to score seven consecutive ODI, the over 50, in a match, which is pretty incredible. And for those that are not necessarily familiar with the sport of cricket, it's tremendous all over the world, and places like Pakistan and India and the West Indies, the women who are the current T20 champs. It’s a place where women's sports shines. And I was so delighted, and Mithali Raj has her own hashtag and little emoji on Twitter, and I'm really excited for that. 

She was also very prominently featured before she went up to bat, she was sitting down and reading Rumi's poetry. She was reading a book before it was her turn to bat, and like Twitter blew up and everybody was so excited. Like, oh, look, it's the captain, and she's reading before she bats! Because it's almost unfathomable that she would be reading. It's one thing for her to be the captain of a sports team, but oh my goodness, she's reading! So, you know, she's just fabulous and I'm so proud. The Pakistan men's team won, so yay. But I’m so excited about the Women's World Cup. And if you can take in some matches, I would highly, highly encourage it, and support these incredible, indomitable women. So, yay for Mithali Raj. 

Lindsay: Awesome. That's incredible. 

Shireen: So, moving onto her honorable mentions. Linz?

Lindsay: Yeah. I want to talk about the real life wonder woman, Alysia Montaño, the American middle distance runner, six time USA outdoor champion, who this week, in 110 degree weather – which, I don't do anything in 110 degree weather, I would just like to say! [laughter] I stay in bed next to the air conditioner and a fan drinking ice cold lemonade. [laughs] But this 31 year old Olympian from Queens, New York, wore a wonder woman top, bright flowers in her hair, and ran a race while five months pregnant. She ran the 800 meter race. And this is not the first time she has done something like this. 

Jessica: What!

Lindsay: She also ran the same race when she was eight months pregnant in 2014. And I just want to read you this quote. It's just ridiculous. She talked a little bit about the flower she wears, and I just love this quote, and I think this could be one of our…We could adopt this quote for our podcast. “The flower to me means strength and femininity. I think a lot of people say things like ‘you run like a girl.’ That doesn't mean you have to run soft or run dainty. It means that you're strong.” And at the end of this race, her three-year-old, who she ran with while eight months pregnant last time, was waiting for her wearing a t-shirt that said ‘strong like mom’.” Aw!

Shireen: Ohh!

Jessica: No, you’re crying! [laughter]

Lindsay: So, yeah, Alysia, we love you. You're incredible. Thank you for showing everyone that women in all forms and all stages of life, in all stages of the biological clock, are phenomenal. 

Jessica: My honorable mention this week goes to Whitney Osuigwe. She's the 15 year old French Open juniors champions. So, I’m a couple of weeks late on this. But she was a ninth youngest champion in the tournament's history, and the first American to win the event since Jennifer Capriati back in 1989. And she's about to start tomorrow, I guess, to play in the Wimbledon juniors. And this'll be the first time that she's actually done a grass court season, and I'm just really excited about her. She's adorable. But it's just always really fun to see these up and coming young female athletes. And so, congratulations, Whitney. 

Shireen: That's awesome. I found my honorable mention yesterday and I got so excited about this. It is her name is Shariah Harris and she's from Philadelphia. She's the first Black woman to play in elite level polo. So, Shariah actually plays for Cornell University and this was a really great piece in the Hartford Courant, and we will put these links up in the show notes. She just talks about what it's like to get stares, and we know so much about this, whether it's in swimming or sports that are usually dominated by a certain class system. And polo was definitely one of them. We've seen, you know, what happened with Serena breaking through in tennis, and Venus. But polo, I mean, who knew? Who thought? And so I'm so excited to see this. Shariah, you are amazing. We're so excited. We hope you keep…And I don't know the terms for polo and I do apologize. I hope you keep…Is it scoring or winning or, I mean, you're just amazing. I'm so excited. And this quote from her was really moving. Her mom, Sharmell Harris, said she moved the family from southwest Philadelphia to further away, to upper Darby. So, she says, “As a mother of three children on a single income, I saw it as an opportunity to make their lives better. And instead of a soccer mom, I became a barn mom.”

Lindsay: Love!

Shireen: And I was just like, that's incredible, to have the foresight and the confidence to do that. And a sport that the family had no connection to originally, and now they own it. So, Shariah Harris, we love you. So, this is not necessarily an honorable mention. I just wanted to recognize the Canadian women soccer team captain Christine Sinclair, because I love her and she should be bronzed somewhere. [laughter] She was appointed the highest civilian honor of Canada, which is called the Order of Canada. And I actually joked with Stephanie Yang that I think she might've had something to do with her nomination because Stephanie Yang – you heard her interview with Jess – is probably the biggest Christine Sinclair fan that I know of, and she's American. So, that was that's great. So, just a shoutout to Christine Sinclair, Sincy, we love you. Mad respect. She plays for the Portland Thorns and we couldn't be prouder of you and what you've done for the women's game in this country. 

That's it for this week in Burn It All Down. This week's episode was edited by Ellie Gordon-Moershel and lives on SoundCloud, but can also be heard on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, and TuneIn. We tremendously appreciate your reviews and feedback, so please subscribe, rate, and tell us what you loved and how we can improve. You can follow us on Twitter @BurnItAllDownPod and on Facebook at Burn It All Down. Check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com, where you can find all of our episodes, show notes, and you can find a link to our GoFundMe, and we would appreciate whatever consideration for a donation for our work. Feel free to email us at burnitalldownpod@gmail.com. For Jessica Luther, Lindsay Gibbs, I'm Shireen Ahmed. Thanks for joining us.