Hot Take: Interview with Sandra Herrera, on 2021 NWSL Draft
In this Hot Take, Shireen is joined by sports journalist Sandra Herrera, of CBS Sports and Southside Trap Podcast, to dissect the 2021 NWSL Draft.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hello flamethrowers, Shireen here. Welcome to our hot take on the NWSL draft! Today I have one of my favorite people and part of the illustrious peak of women’s broadcast journalism – I’ve got Sandra Herrera, CBS NWSL correspondent, co-host of Southside Trap podcast, Bad Bunny connoisseur. She is the best, and not only because she loves that Tina Turner song, but because she literally is up in here with her Jordan merch – you can’t see her, but she’s here – representing what is the best of Chicago. Hello, amiga.
Sandra: Oh Shireen, it’s so good to see you and chat with you.
Shireen: Thank you so much. I know last night was wild for you, and just the action…The drama…The pauses! [laughs] Everything. Thank you so much for being awake and alert to be here with us. Okay, so, tell us: basically 40 picks, 4 trades, almost 5 hours?
Sandra: Yeah, it’s funny, that was one of the first post-reaction things that I had tweeted out about the draft. I was like, wow, the final timestamp on the NWSL draft stream via Twitch was 4 hours 56 minutes, and 10 seconds. So, just shy of five hours.
Shireen: Is that one of the longest drafts we’ve seen? Because I don’t remember last year’s being that long.
Sandra: I don’t know if anyone has a record of the timestamps for other ones because I’m not too sure all of them are on YouTube…I know a good chunk of them are.
Shireen: Yeah.
Sandra: But three-ish to four-ish hours isn’t too uncommon but five hours is like, whoa.
Shireen: And we’re attributing that because it was all online, or…?
Sandra: Yeah, I think it’s a combination obviously of the pandemic has impacted so much, so that included how this draft was gonna look. It was all done virtually, there were a ton of time-outs included, and that wasn't just each one per round per team that people were allowed to use, but you know, there were also not necessarily league time-outs but league breaks that were taking place in between picks and in between rounds. So, all of that sort of elongated things. It was a long night, but it definitely wasn’t uneventful, so that was helpful.
Shireen: So, any surprises here? Because we see top three: Emily Fox, Trinity Rodman and Brianna Pinto. Any surprises here?
Sandra: I’ll go on record and I’ll be sincere and I’ll say that I wasn’t surprised that Trinity Rodman went in the first round, she was a pretty sought-after prospect.
Shireen: From Washington State, right?
Sandra: Yes, correct. But I was a little surprised at how high she went. For me personally heading into this draft, sort of seeing the list of players who actually went through registration and declared, just sort of going based off of that I was like, you know…For me it was Brianna Pinto. You look at a player like that and you’re like, this is a player that has to go #1. That’s not to discredit any of the other players that were taken in the first round or throughout the draft, but there was just a lot of uncertainty headed into this year’s draft. I mean, the league really had to address some different things on the fly. We saw them make some rule adjustments and amendments.
There was a lack of maybe what could be considered buy-in to this year’s draft just because of all the uncertainty. They requested the waiver from NCAA in light of the pandemic and the spring season being pushed back. They were granted that waiver; that’s still kind of generating a lot of interest. Then there was a ruling that came down from the governing board of NWSL that basically did away with the registration requirement. [Shireen laughs] It defined seniors in a certain capacity, in a certain role…It was like, they had to have expelled three years of eligibility, you know? There was a lot going on. So, you have this concept of yes there was a list of 49 players who had registered, right? But then there was also this concept of like, well, without that registration requirement all these players are considered “eligible” – players who have expelled those three years in college.
So, it was a much larger pool than people might've assumed. So, seeing just those 49 names on that declared list, you still are looking at a player like Brianna Pinto like, yeah, yeah! This is a player who’s gonna make an immediate impact. So, seeing someone like Trinity Rodman who had kind of declared pretty early…I still was like, she’s gonna get a lot of attention, she was a sought-after prospect. She hasn’t even taken a step onto the pitch at the collegiate level, but that doesn’t mean she’s not someone with a high ceiling.
Shireen: She hasn’t taken a step on because of the pandemic, so she’s actually been…Just to clarify for our listeners, Trinity Rodman hasn’t actually played any minutes because this lovely virus that’s impacted so many of these young women’s lives as well…
Sandra: Absolutely. She had declared to play for Washington State, and a lot of her playing experience is coming based off of her time with US national youth teams.
Shireen: Yeah.
Sandra: So, that was probably the pick that kind of surprised me a little bit. Not that she went first round, but that the Washington Spirit looked at a lot of players and said, “Yes, this is the player that we want with the #2 overall pick.” So, yeah, she’s got a lot of great highlights, she’s an exciting player to watch. She’s got a nose for goals. I think coming off of the 2020 we had where it was a little bit dry [laughter] in terms of the goal-scoring, I think people are looking for forwards that they can really develop with within their system, and the Spirit have a great young core that they’re working with, so Trinity Rodman can potentially be a really good long-term development project for them.
Shireen: So, in that vein of scorers and those nose for goals and finishers, let’s talk about Deanne Rose and Kiki Pickett, who happen to be Canadian! You know I’m gonna drop this in there! Two of the top ten are from the north. So also in that vein, along the same line, I think it was André Carlisle, our friend of the show and great colleague…Top ten: seven women of color, six Black women. What!? I don't remember seeing this before. These numbers are the truth. They’re legitimate, they’re important, they’re impactful. How is this draft particularly going to affect that pay to play soccer is so white rich girl USA? How do you think this particular draft class really will…Will it change it, even? Is that a fair question?
Sandra: I think it’s a fair question to ask, but I also think we need to continue asking those sub-questions underneath that larger question. This isn’t like United States 2008, “we elected Obama and racism is dead,” right? This is historic and yes, it should be celebrated, you know? That first round was thrilling in a number of ways because of the next generation of talent that is potentially going to make its way into the league. But yeah, for a lot of other – in my opinion more important – reasons, yes, several women of color who are being drafted in that first round is something that we haven’t seen before in the past at NWSL drafts. All of those things will feel much heavier coming off of the year we’ve all gone through, especially in the United States with all of the ongoing protests and call to actions, in light of…Not even “in light of” – a lot of us have known that there’s been a lot of issues with police violence and police brutality, and while many communities have been speaking out about that, in 2020 it got amplified to a national level.
So, coming off of that in 2020, coming off of the pandemic, obviously that was so difficult for so many, and then having this draft sort of have that additional underlayer of historic significance where, wow, look at these players that are getting drafted in the first round: players of color, Black-identifying, multicultural-identifying, Latinx-identifying players. It was huge, and for lack of a better word it felt nice. [laughs] It felt nice to have that happen, and seeing whether it’s the Canadian internationals or somebody like a Pinto or somebody like a Rodman or Villacorta or whomever, it’s nice to see that. These are also players who were drafted and also coming into the league having kind of similar mindsets in that aspect, you know? Players who have been vocal in light of the calls to action that have been taking place. So, those perspectives on top of their talent are of equal importance to me to have into the league.
Shireen: Now, something close to your heart, obviously, are the Latinx players, because you celebrated on Twitter a little bit…
Sandra: Yeah! [Shireen laughs] Hey, it's always nice to have those connections with players, and people look for that. We saw reactions of our Black colleagues, we saw reactions from Black fans and their excitement in seeing the players who were getting drafted. It wasn’t until a later round and it was like the only pick that OL Reign had, but Jimena López is a great talent, a great defender, and they selected her with their only pick, OL Reign! They were like, “This is gonna be great.” But yeah, she’s a Mexican international, she’s someone who’s got a lot of experience at the national team level, also with youth camps with Mexico as well. She’s come up in American domestic soccer systems, right?
So she’s got a little bit of a different feel to her. She's got a lot of ability to sort of get involved into attacks if that’s how the Reign see her doing, if she’s gonna be on the back line, and I know that they’ve got some great outside backs right now. They have Stephanie Cox, who’s a veteran of the league, but also [laughter] came out of retirement! Another Mexican-American woman who had represented the national team at the senior level. But you know, if she’s looking to maybe exit once again that's a great pickup for OL Reign. So yeah, I was absolutely excited to see that. You never know who’s gonna get their name called, and to hear Jimena López, that was really dope.
Shireen: Yeah, I mean, I’m all here for your celebration of tricolor, like, more of that here! I’m all here for that. Another thing I was sort of thinking about in doing this, the amount of media attention, particularly in this year…I’m gonna have to name-drop the Meg Linehan cutout at Sky Blue, because that was amazing. For those that hadn’t seen, Alyse LaHue and the team at Sky Blue FC actually had a cutout of our dear Meg, which was hilarious. When are we gonna see a Sandra Herrera cutout, and can I get one?
Sandra: I don’t know, man. [laughs] I think I gotta change my Twitter avi or something. My Twitter image is, yes, of me, but I’m also holding a giant mug that says “please refer all questions to @itsmeglinehan” [Shireen laughs] So, I’m not too sure that’s something you could easily copy and print out and turn into a big giant Fathead, right? But I was cracking up at it. You love to see it, you love to see that kind of stuff as well. Sky Blue knows what’s up, you know? They’ve got a great front office. Alyse LaHue there, people who understand and value the importance and really the role of media, and that they play within the league and for the league. To see that happen is for lack of a better phrase, it was 0% shocking that it came from a front office that gets it, right? That “gets it.” So, it was a fun tidbit to have and to notice and to chat about during draft night and to see it happening throughout the night with their draft room – it never left, it always stood in its place. But yeah, it was nice to see. Who knows, who knows…Maybe someone’ll mix it up and throw one of me in there. [laughter] I won’t be looking for it at all! I’ll gladly give Meg that credit and have her cutout in all the rooms.
Shireen: One of the things that’s really nice to see is how the women’s soccer community and the media and just a really…You know, they’re looking for the same thing, just the growth and amplification of the game and growing the game. I think this is really wonderful and it’s a nod to media and also to the teams that are working hard. Nobody has it right all the time, so we’re all in here learning, unlearning, retooling. One of the things I was gonna ask you, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you about Chicago, because I know there’s a little bit of love you’ve got…And I will ask you about my Thorns, because I’m all excited about Amirah Ali, I’m gonna say that. Tell me: what’s happening for your Stars – YOUR stars! Literally Sandra Herrera’s Chicago Red Stars.
Sandra: The Sandra Herrera Red Stars. [laughter] Yeah, you know what, having the ear to Chicago heading into the draft, watching them make really a ton of moves before this particular draft day, it gave the impression that maybe they were ultimately going to sort of trade out and look ahead into next year’s draft and into 2022, because they had entered 2021 with a handful of picks, like, a slew of picks, which they ultimately ended up using, tradable assets along the way. So, they went out and they got expansion draft roster protection by trading Nagasato and McCaskill to Louisville FC, and they also gave a fifth overall pick to sort of sweeten that deal. They ended up making a trade with Sky Blue, and a lot of that was just picks. They ended up trading the 2021 #4 and I believe the #8 overall pick to them, and that also included some future draft picks and an international slot. They got Mal Pugh and veteran Sarah Woldmoe, so they were using a lot of their draft as traceable assets. When we’re looking at Chicago and what they got out of the draft, they got Mal Pugh and Sarah Woldmoe!
Shireen: Yeah. [laughs]
Sandra: They got to retain a #6 pick overall into the draft, so they had the #6 pick, 18, 25, and 32 ultimately, when they made a trade with the Thorns. So, I wasn’t too surprised to see them make a little bit of a move in that first round. Rory Dames, he's a draft king and he’s notorious for really working those NWSL drafts to his advantage and really sort of has grown the team that he has now through the draft and drafts prior. So, watching them work the phones and have conversations with the Thorns, it was kind of cool to hear Mark Parsons also say that there was just a mutual interest in having that trade. There were both players that the two teams wanted to target and there was an understanding that they were two completely different players, so to sweeten the deal the Thorns said we’ll also give you our later round pick if we can have your 6 pick. So they just swapped that 6 and 7, and the Thorns ended up taking Yazmeen Ryan I believe. Chicago went ahead and took Madison Haley, so it was a mutual benefiting trade. I was surprised to actually see them make a selection and stay within the draft.
Again, I really did think they were gonna trade out of it. But I love the pickup that they made. I think Madison Haley was a smart, smart pickup – really strong forward coming out of an even stronger Stanford University draft class, really just a powerhouse of a development program coming out of that university. They’ve been collecting forwards for a little while, Chicago. [Shireen laughs] Yeah, they’re trying to look a certain type of way. I think they’ve got a forward core in place that they’re comfortable moving forward in 2021, and a lot of the forwards that they ended up drafting in this draft class, I think the intent there is to eventually get them in because, again, a lot of these players are gonna return to their schools and close out their senior seasons.
Shireen: This might be a general question, but is this kind of like compensating for the whole loss that is Sam Kerr? Is that what a little bit of this is in terms of…Or is that just conjecture?
Sandra: I think it’s a little bit of both, I think it's fair to say it’s both, you know? Because Chicago for a long time was a team that always kind of operated with a target forward, right? They were always able to look to, no matter what era it was, whether it was a Christen Press era or Sam Kerr era. So, they are looking a little bit different. 2020 didn’t give us a lot of looks at that, because Challenge Cup and Fall Series were just more smaller condensed versions of a season. But the concept of not just having a top 3 but really like a front 6, where midfielders are getting super involved into the offense and continuing runs and passes to players out wide and stuff like that. So, we got to see little parts of it; hopefully we get to see more of it. I’m not sure if this 2021 draft class of forwards are gonna be part of that in 2021. They might not come into the mix until 2022. But for now I think that pick for Madison Haley was huge.
Shireen: Yeah, I mean, I’m happy to see Yazmeen Ryan at the Thorns. I’m happy with the Thorns! There’s no lie about how I love that team, you know, starting with O Captain My Captain, our co-prime minister. But if anyone’s out here listening, you’re listening to Sandra say basically attacking 6, so, pay attention people out there, in terms of strategies. This is one of those basic bitch questions here: team that made out the best, do you think, out of this draft? Who made out the most, do you think?
Sandra: Man, I would say that it’s floating between three teams for me: Sky Blue, Washington Spirit, and Chicago.
Shireen: Okay.
Sandra: But if we’re just centering in – because it was a very long draft – [laughs] on that first round, it’s absolutely Sky Blue. I mean, we’re talking about history-making things. They’re walking away with an ungodly amount of allocation money [Shireen laughs] out of that first round. It literally blew everybody’s mind. People were like, “The league approved this?!”
Shireen: And just to be clear, 175,000 US dollars! [laughs]
Sandra: Right, correct – and that was just for their #4 pick! They also had the #8 pick, which Washington Spirit traded allocation money for with them as well, so we had Kansas City trade up into the draft via Sky Blue, and Washington Spirit as well. So, coming out of just that first round they were stepping out of the first round with $275,000 in allocation money, which was unreal, unreal. Chicago Red Stars and former Utah Royals FC made a bit of history as the two teams to have ever made a trade for allocation money, and that was in last year's draft in 2020, and it was for the 8th round pick and it was somewhere around the $60-80,000 mark. So just to tell you where the jump has gone! We had a new team come in and really shake things up, and Kansas City was just like, “This is what we’re valuing. This is how badly we want Kiki Pickett, because that’s who we ended up selecting with that pick.”
So, getting a ton of money…They also got an additional pick. They’re getting a pick in the second round of 2022, which is also incredibly valuable. There’s a lot of chatter about how much talent is going to be coming into that draft class as well. So, setting yourself up financially for the future with the money and picks, it was huge, I think. So, if we’re just looking at that 2-hour long first round I think Sky Blue is winning that.
Shireen: I think this is so important, especially the financial piece you just mentioned is so great, because we hear about the growth. I mean, I think Challenge Cup, considering what a trash year 2020 was, was so well-executed, and in the way that this is rolling out I can’t wait to see these big bold numbers. You know me, I’m all about that go big or go home, and I can’t wait to see it here, particularly in a league that has been a stalwart of the game globally in my opinion, that we’ve seen the best players in the world arguably play here. You can say what you want about Europe but I’m sorry. There are people out there that are like, oh, all those players leaving to…You know, I was gonna touch on this! All that cynicism of any player moving to Europe is a loss and the league is gonna drain. I just don’t see it like that. People move around all the time, we’ve had players from NWSL go there, come back, it’s fluidity.
One thing I was gonna mention because I saw this drama unfold, and you did talk about Trinity Rodman – why can’t people just call her Trinity Rodman? For those of you that didn’t pick up on this earlier, Trinity Rodman had a dad who used to play basketball! And also beloved by our wonderful guest, Sandra! But she’s Trinity Rodman. Can you explain a little bit about that hoopla and why that’s all trash?
Sandra: It is because everyone is impacted by the patriarchy and toxic masculinity, and for them the measure has always been men, and men are the default for whatever reason and we have to continue doing the work to make sure that that stops [laughs] and doesn’t continue. Look, she’s an intelligent, bright player, and of course she was already asked about that narrative within some of her media sessions, virtual media sessions with us during the draft. She nailed it, she nailed it from the jump. She said I’m really excited to be known as Trinity Rodman, not just simply Dennis Rodman’s daughter, you know? She’s got a famous dad, a ridiculous athlete hall of fame father. Shoutout to the 90s Bulls.
Shireen: Of course. [laughs] Shoutout to the Bulls. I was waiting for that.
Sandra: But, BUT! Even within all that, yeah, it’s frustrating to see that that’s the first bit of interest that people had for this player and sadly, again, with men’s sports sort of being the default, that is going to be a lot of people’s introduction to this player. So, it’s my hope with her jump to go pro that she sort of smashes that. I mean, her mother’s already ready to help her smash that. She was rocking the Team Trin gear! I was loving it. It was great to see. It’s unfortunate, you know, you start hearing the chatter about it and you’re like, okay, come on, we get it, we get it, we know. You want to just get through the cycle as quickly as possible so that we can just sort of move on, and then hopefully for those of us who are kind of within the media landscape on this side of things we will do our part and our due diligence to continue to cover this player as just that, the player who is known as Trinity Rodman, right?
Shireen: Yeah, I love all of that. Speaking of that, where can our listeners find you? Because if you’re not following Sandra you have to all the time, not just because she’ll insert the 90s Bulls practically anywhere! [Sandra laughs] In anything! But just because she’s lit. So, where do we find you? Where do our listeners find you and your work?
Sandra: I try my best to amplify all of my work via my Twitter account so people can typically find me there @SandHerrera_ and if people are curious to engage in more Chicago-specific content I co-host Southside Trap podcast and you can find us at @SouthsideTrapod. Go ahead and hit us up there for any Chicago or Red Sox content that you’re looking for.
Shireen: I have fangirled over you for a long time so I’m so happy that this is your inaugural Burn It All Down visit and guest appearance. We’re so happy, and you’re welcome anytime, amiga. Thank you so much for doing this and thank you for your work. You are making women’s soccer media a much better place and I’m just so happy you’re here, I can't even tell you.
Sandra: I was so hyped when you reached out. I was like, yes! [Shireen laughs] I’ll be half dead but I can't wait to be on Burn It All Down!
Shireen: Well, you and your Jordan gear look unbelievably hype, and being friends with Sandra makes you 1000% cooler. I can just tell you that right now. Okay my friend, thank you so much for being on Burn It All Down.