Hot Take: Kamila Hinkson, Staff Editor at The Athletic, on MLB Post-Season

In this Hot Take, Shireen Ahmed talks with Kamila Hinkson, Staff Editor at The Athletic covering Major League Baseball. They discuss the wild conclusion to the MLB regular season, Shireen's heartbreak over the Toronto Blue Jays and who Kamila thinks will take the World Series crown.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers. Thank you for joining us on this very important hot take on what I call “the baseball.” I know nothing about this, and today you may or may not have heard that my newly loved Toronto Blue Jays are no longer in the playoffs – something I actually don't understand, and how that transpired and how the playoffs work, if you actually even call it that. Which is why I invited baseball expert Kamila Hinkson to the show. Hello, Kamila!

Kamila: Hello, Shireen. 

Shireen: So, let me tell you a little bit about this fabulous person. Kamila Hinkson is a staff editor covering Major League Baseball, and before joining The Athletic, she worked at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation based in Montreal. She loves jelly beans, Justin Bieber discography, and I won't even begin to tell you about her feelings on poutine, because I'm already so conflicted about everything. [Kamila laughs] Kamila, I don't understand the baseball. Let me be real with you. I'm a hockey and soccer fan. I have no business being this upset about sport in September. I didn't even know if we were going to the playoffs, and the weird thing is the Blue Jays didn't even know that they were going to the playoffs either. What, what is this? 

Kamila: It's mess, is what it is. It's just absolute mess. Where should I start? Where do you want me to start? [laughs]

Shireen: Okay. I do understand there's a thing called Major League Baseball.

Kamila: Yes. MLB.

Shireen: And underneath that there's American League and there's the National League…

Kamila: Correct.

Shireen: That's all I got. 

Kamila: Okay. All right. So there are 15 teams in each league, and, oh boy, here comes the math. So, 10 teams make it into the postseason, except the first games of the postseason are what they call the wild card. So, this didn't always exist. It's a fairly new in the history of baseball, because baseball goes back decades and decades and decades. So it's a fairly new invention, this wild card, and it's a play in game where the two teams with the best records that didn't win their divisions…So, I should maybe back up and say that the AL and the NL are divided into three divisions: east, west, and central. So, the champions of the east, west, and central make it to the playoffs, to the postseason. And then the two teams with the next best records face off in the wild card game. It is a one game playoff, winner gets to move on. And I think they play the top seed in their respective league. So, the Blue Jays were fighting to make it into the wild card game. 

Shireen: So they hadn't even reached that point yet?

Kamila: No. So, would just play in the American League east, which was a pretty stacked division this year. There are five teams per division. And so basically the winner of that division was the Tampa Bay Rays. And then the teams that the Blue Jays were kind of jockeying for position with to get into the wild card game, of those teams – there were three other teams – of the three, two of them were also from the American League east. So, there are four teams, four of the five teams in the American League east finished the season with 90 plus wins. So, it was a pretty stacked division, and the competition, it was fierce, pretty fierce all year. The Red Sox, you know, no one really thought that they were gonna challenge for anything. And then they ended up being better than everyone thought.

The Yankees ended up being worse than everyone thought and really struggled all year. The Jays, I would say probably underperformed a little bit, but they get a bit of a pass because their core is so young. Their big players are kind of young, so that's kind of the caveat there. It's like, well, they struggled, but they're young. So, they had trouble kind of finding their footing until they came back to Toronto, which is a whole other thing we could talk about after. And the Rays just kind of had the pedal to the metal the whole season, came in first fairly easily.

And the other team, to round out the AL east, is the Orioles, and they're awful, awful. Like, very, very bad. So, yeah. The Jays were kind of fighting to get into the postseason with the Yankees and the Red Sox and the Mariners. And there were just so many different scenarios. So, like a graph, which basically like broke down yesterday – yesterday being Sunday, the last day of the season – what all the different possibilities would be if these two teams won, but these two teams lost, and this would happen…And it was enough to give you at least a pretty acute headache, if not just explode your brain.

Shireen: So, that Winona Rider meme gif thing of her looking at the math, that's me trying to talk to you about this because I don’t...Like, soccer's fairly simple. You have a certain amount of games. You have a bracket, and you follow it. Like, this is loops and turns and different divisions meeting here. How do baseball fans manage? Has it always been like this? Because you said the wild card, it was fairly recent. 

Kamila: There was…I think about 10 years ago, where the last day of the season was absolute pandemonium. But it doesn't usually shake out this way, at least from my recent memory. There was just so much chaos yesterday! Like, so many things still needed to be decided by the games, like coming right down to the wire. There was a possibility that there would have been another game today if things didn't get resolved in a tidy way. But it just turned out that everything kind of wrapped up with a neat little bow. The maximum chaos that some people were rooting for didn't come to pass, but there was real potential for just a…Nightmare. I was going to swear. Just a nightmare situation–

Shireen: You can swear.

Kamlia: [laughs] A shit show. It could have been a shit show, but it wasn't, and it's not…I don't think it's usually this way. Usually things are pretty clear cut by 162, by the last game of the season. So this year was a treat, a treat.

Shireen: So, one of our co-hosts Dr. Amira Rose Davis, she's all up in there with the Red Sox because she's from Massachusetts, so that's her thing, right? She loves chaos, so she's excited about this, and I have anxiety. This is not good for me. And when I texted you and I said, “What is this?” And friends, I need you to understand this quote and the profound nature of this quote. I was like, why is baseball so stressful? Kamila Hinkson replies, “Oh, Jesus. Baseball is a special kind of pain.” And I do really appreciate you breaking this down because this is extraordinarily stressful. And like I said, you want a leisurely fall. You know, you want to have your pumpkin spice latte. You want to walk around in your oversized scarf and whatever else people do out there. This is just…It’s really stressful. Like, Toronto beat the Baltimore Orioles last night and still we did not know if they were going to go forward. My question is: what kind of stress does is actually put on the players?

Kamila: I can't even imagine. I mean, they knew coming into that game yesterday that they had to win. If they lost, it would have been over. So they knew what they had to do, and they were kind of on a roll on Saturday. They won, I think it was 10 to something. They scored a lot of runs, they won. And so, you know, and as aforementioned, unfortunately the Baltimore Orioles, this iteration of the Baltimore Orioles, they're not a very good team. So, you know, they came in yesterday and they got the job done. They're a confident bunch and when they're hitting, they really are rolling. And George Springer hit a grand slam and you're like, all right, this is…I think they won 12-4, and they did their part. And it was almost immediate. It's actually a bit heartbreaking because…So, what had happened was you're watching the game from home, as I was doing, and you’re scoreboard watching. You’re like, what are the Yankees up to? What are the Mariners up to? What are the Red Sox up to?

And the Yankees won their game 1-0 in the final inning. So, we knew that the Jays were still playing. We knew that the Yankees had won. And so what they needed was for the Red Sox to lose, the Red Sox were losing, and then they came back to tie the game. So, it was 5-5 when the Jays game ended. So, you know, you're watching the broadcast, and they're like, we're going to take you to Boston now so you can watch the end of this game – the Red Sox were playing…Sorry, we're going to take you to Washington. They were in Washington playing the Washington Nationals, and they cut to that game. And I think it was like less than five minutes later Rafael Devers on the Boston Red Sox hit a two run home run, and everyone was just like, ah, well, it's over! [laughs] Like, it's just the most anti-climactic, just like, “Okay, we got a shot…Nope!” Just absolutely shut that down like five minutes after the Jays had this very resounding win.

So, it's not good. Just was not good. The vibes were bad. And, you know, the Sox were the visiting team, so that means they bat first in the inning. The home team has a chance to come back and win it. But the Washington Nationals, also not a very good team this year, or at least this version, the second half version of the team. And they did not come back. They lost, and that was it. That was it. So it was a real roller coaster where it was like, “We got a shot…We got a shot…We ab…We have no shot, it's over. It's done.”

Shireen: So, I kept hearing people say that this team at some point is contingent on this team winning or losing. And like, I understand that's how sports work and that's how stats and things and games and results work, but it's also…It feels mildly unfair that one's own results…And I'm not saying this specifically about baseball, but just generally a philosophical discussion, if we may. Do you feel that this is, you know, the best way to move forward in playoffs? Like, generally? Sure, let’s use baseball as that example, that other teams' results is the decider. There must be a way to not do this. 

Kamila: It's tough. I mean, in this case, it was pretty straightforward in the sense that it was the record, right? The math determined who got in at the end of the day. So, you know, their fate was kind of not in their own hands, which is the sports cliché, but I think the thing about baseball...And I was thinking about this when I told you baseball is a specific kind of pain. What was really getting me about it is that it's 162 games! Like, every time people talk to me about baseball, they're like, wow, so many baseball games. I'm like, there are 162 games in a season. It starts at the end of March. It finishes in early October. It is so long! And to think that after all of that, it came down to 162. And even after all of that, you're like, you know, the Jays went on a real tear in mid September, they were doing real well. And, you know, just the hope, the high that you get from that, to then have it all come crashing down like five minutes after the game ends…Pain. That is pain! [laughs] That is pain, you know?

But the flip side to that is that at the end of August, you know, the narrative around the Jays was. I mean, let's not talk about the narrative. I was in Toronto. I was talking to my dad, and he was like, are the Jays going to make the playoffs? And I was like, don't think so! Like, it really didn't seem like a possibility. Their playoff odds were like less than 10%. It didn't seem like it was going to happen. And then two weeks kind of turn that all around. So then you get your hopes up again. And then two weeks later, it's over! 

Shireen: Yeah. I will say that I coincidentally started enjoying this team and supporting them in the end of August. So, for me it was great. I went to a couple of games and I saw the twins play. I saw the game against the Orioles, and I was like, wait a minute – we’re good here! And then the hype starting...You know how lit Toronto gets when anyone starts winning anything around here, because Leafs aren’t going to win anything. We know that. B I think it's just exciting and it's riveting, because baseball fandom is a different type of fandom altogether. Like, the support…And you're right. There's a lot of games in the season. 

Kamila: So many games!

Shireen: They play like three times a week!

Kamila: At minimum! It's crazy. It's crazy. I love it! But it's nuts. There's so many games. [laughs]

Shireen: Has this sport, Kamila, always been your go-to?

Kamila: Oh, that is a question. So, I started playing softball when I was about seven, and when I was seven the Montreal Expos still existed. My dad, bless him, always used to try and get me to sit down and watch the Expos. You want to be a good softball player? Watch the game on TV. And I was like, no thanks! I'd rather just play. [laughs] So, I was not an Expos fan, had no real interest in watching the game. All I wanted to do was be on the field. The Expos left and I was like, bye. [laughs] See ya! But softball, you know, I started when I was seven...I still haven't stopped, and I will be 32. So, softball was always my thing. And then there was a year where I lived in Toronto. I went to Toronto for a job, and that was the first year as an adult where I lived in a town where there was a baseball team. So I went to a couple of games and I was like, I like this. This is my…This speaks to me – obviously, because I was a softball player! It shouldn't have been rocket science, but I was like, oh wait! Yeah, this is cool! So that's when I started kind of getting into baseball. The sport has always been…You know, softball is not the same sport, but the basis of it, I've always been obsessed with it from time. But coming around to Major League Baseball took me a little while, but I'm here now. I’m firmly entrenched.

Shireen: I mean, I love that for you. I'm so happy I have access to your knowledge, because I'm just like, I don’t…And you know, I have a couple other people on my advisory committee for baseball, for the baseball advisory committee. Melissa Doldron, friend of the show, and Jalani Morgan, photographer. I'm like, what is happening here? I didn't dare message them last night because everybody was stressed, so I did not. [Kamila laughs] I just got a sad face this morning from Mel. And they grew up loving it, like Jalani in particular loves it. And Melissa, who's actually been on the show before in a Patreon segment, is a massage therapist associated with the Blue Jays. So I think that that’s amazing. So anyway, what I'm trying to say is there's a culture there that I really like, and I'm kind of getting into. And going to what I will forever call the Skydome – I know it's called the Rogers Centre, but I'm old enough to know it as the Skydome – the baseball is fun. And in Toronto, the baseball is really fun.

Fun fact: I also knew the Montreal Expos. I'm predisposed, genetically, to love Montreal teams. So, grew up loving the Expos. I found out recently – I did not know this – Youppi was actually the mascot of the Expos and got adopted by the Montreal Canadiens when the Expos shut down. And where did they move to?

Kamila: Washington. They were the team that did not…So, a big joke yesterday on the internet, that the former Expos needed to help out the Blue Jays, and they did not. And then the possible new Expos, the Tampa Bay Rays, needed to help the Blue Jays by beating the Yankees, and they did not. So, Montreal associated teams, however loosely you want to debate how that association is loose or whatever, did not come through for Toronto yesterday, which, like, are we surprised? Sorry everyone! But I don't know, you know…

Shireen: Chaos! Chaos. So, if any of our listeners want to start enjoying the baseball, where do you suggest people start? Is there a team? Is there a Baseball Fandom for Dummies kind of thing? Is there anything like that that we can…?

Kamila: Oh man, that is such a good question. I would suggest, first and foremost, if you want to get into it, find a friend who likes it and have them kind of shepherd you. All of my friends who are not baseball fans always tell me, like, I'm not interested in this, but I will listen to you talk about it. Which, like…That’s a decision! [laughs] But I will say that I've heard from non-baseball fans that the enthusiasm will rub off, the enthusiasm is palpable. So if you can find someone who's into it and who's nice and patient and will explain things to you – because not all fans are like that, for better or for worse. That might be a good place to start. In terms of teams…Man. I mean, the Blue Jays are a great team to get in. You're kind of getting it on the ground floor with them because they are as aforementioned young, a young team. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is coming into his star powers. He destroys baseballs. And if there's anything I have learned people who aren't super into baseball like, it's they like to see people hit and hit home runs. And Vladimir Guerrero does that a lot.

Bo Bichette does that a lot, another player on the Blue Jays. So, they're exciting. They're fun and they're exciting and they're a good team to get into, because they're expected to be fun and exciting for the foreseeable future, let's say, for the next couple of years. So if you want to be like, “I was there from the start!” the Blue Jays might not be a bad place to start. I would also say this with a big asterisk: the San Diego Padres. The San Diego Padres were so much fun last year. The pandemic, bad times. We know this. Baseball was delayed a little bit, but they did end up having like a 60 game season. And the Padres were just so much fun. To give you an idea, they were nicknamed Slam Diego because they just kept hitting. They have another star in Fernando Tatís Jr., another junior.

Their dads know each other. Vlad and Fernando's dads know each other. They've known each other for a long time. They're both from Dominican Republic. Fernando Tatís Jr. is just a joy to watch, just an absolute joy. He also murders baseballs. He's a good fielder. It's just good times. So, the Padres did not have a good end to 2021, so remains to be seen what happens next year. But I would say, if you're looking for like a west coast team, that would be a good team to watch – almost solely, but not entirely, for Fernando Tatís Jr.

Shireen: You know what, Brenda, another co-host of the podcast, Dr. Brenda Elsey loves the Padres, and she will be so happy that you mentioned that. And Brenda, I didn't put her up to this. So, this is so perfect for the show. But I do appreciate this, because what we want to do is we'd like to give…We do a lot of soccer on here. We talk WNBA, we talk NBA. And there's football, the American kind. That's not proper football, but we talk about that a fair bit. So, I appreciate you coming on. We're coming a little bit out of our wheelhouse here, and I love that. This is your expertise, so thank you so much for coming on the show to explain that. Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you: any playoff predictions?

Kamila: Oh man. Someone just asked me this and I was like, I hate making predictions.

Shireen: For your dad, what would you tell your dad?

Kamila: Oh, that is such a good question, because he's going to be asking me soon. He's going to be like, you want to bet. I'm like, no, dad! [Shireen laughs] I do not want to bet you, because I don't want to lose! [laughs] Okay. You know what? I'm just going to go for it. We're just going to go for it. I'm just going to go for it. Not going to think too hard about this. I think the AL champ will be the Tampa Bay Rays. They are just very, very good. They are very good. And they will play in the first round of the playoffs, they will play at an opponent from their division, so I think they'll be able to handle that. I think they'll be able to handle it. So I think the AL champ will be, once again – they were the champs last year – the Tampa Bay Rays. I think out of the NL, I’m gonna go with my gut here and say the Dodgers.

I think the Dodgers and the Giants were kind of locked in this battle that also came down to Sunday, game 162, to see who was going to be top in the NL west. And the Giants won, and the Giants were not expected to be very good this year, and they surprised everyone. They won 107 games. The Dodgers won 106. I usually will go with the underdog, but I just think that the Dodgers are going to get so fed up. Like, they're just going to be like, how did we not crush the Giants this year? How did we end up in this wild card game? That I think if they can get past the wild card game, I think they're going to go off. So I think we're going to get a Dodgers-Rays World Series, again, because that's what happened last year. And I think the Rays will win it this year. There we go.

Shireen: Okay. Okay. And you know what? That's okay. I'm not super partial to Tampa because they took away the Stanley Cup from the Canadiens. But that's okay. 

Kamila: You’re right! [laughs] I totally forgot about that.

Shireen: Yeah. So, I'm not feeling Tampa Bay, but I can pretend to know…I always thought the Dodgers, I associate them with Brooklyn because when I was there a couple of years ago I went to an exhibit on baseball. Weren't they the Brooklyn…I know we're delving into history here. They used to be the Brooklyn Dodgers, no?

Kamila: Many, many, many moons ago, but yes.

Shireen: Many moons ago. So anyways, I think of them in my head as Brooklyn. And I should stop doing that, because I think I'm 50 years out. But anyways, my point is, you have made me a Brooklyn…Brooklyn Dodgers! An LA Dodgers fan! [Kamila laughs] You’ve made me a Dodgers fan now, Kamila. So I thank you. In absence of my Jays. Because the flamethrowers know Marcus Semien is everything to me, because I just found out about him six weeks ago. So clearly, [Kamila laughs] it's like a very tried and true thing. She's just shaking her head, for all those who cant see. She's just shaking her head.

Kamila: You know, Marcus Semien is a great choice. Another great choice for a player who you want to hitch your way to. A hundred percent. I will just tell you really quickly: he was on the Oakland A's for a long time. He's from the Bay Area. And then, you know, they did him dirty. We'll just say that. They did him a bit dirty, and he ended up on the Blue Jays, and then he went off. That's what you want. It's like the perfect story, right? They were like, thanks but no thanks. And he was like, I'm taking my talents to Canada, to the Blue Jays, who played a lot of games in America, and then to Canada.

Shireen: And he's a free agent now, so we hope he stays here. So flamethrowers, direct your energy to Robbie Ray, pitcher, and to Marcus Semien, because I need to be happy. Kamila, it was a joy to have you on. Please come on anytime, talk about the baseball.

Kamila: Love to talk about the baseball. Clearly talk too much about the baseball! [Shireen laughs] I would love to be back whenever you need.

Shireen: And say hi to your dad from us, and also let us know how that bet goes. But lastly, where can our listeners find you and your work?

Kamila: Oh, wow. Okay. So right now that's at theathletic.com. Lots of playoff postseason baseball stuff coming. And you can always follow me on Twitter, but that's not smart. It's just a lot of dumb thoughts. [laughs] If dumb thoughts are your thing, follow me on Twitter!

Shireen: I mean, you are an essential part of my baseball Twitter, which is literally the three of you plus Stacey May Fowles, friend of the show as well. So that's really…Oh, John Lott as well. But all Blue Jays people, I only really listen to Blue Jays…And Hazel Mae.

Kamila: That’s amazing. 

Shireen: So again, thank you so much for being…And I hope you enjoy the rest of the season.

Kamila: I'm going to have a great time. I'm going to have a great time. 

Shireen: [laughs] This is where we insert Save Your Tears by The Weekend. 

Kamila: Primo song. Love it.