Hot Take: Meghann Burke, Executive Director of the NWSL Players Association

In this Hot Take, Lindsay Gibbs interviews Meghann Burke, former WSA and WPS soccer player, now lawyer and Executive Director of the NWSL Players Association, who is pushing for the league's first CBA. They discuss their recent #NoMoreSideHustles campaign, the need for better player health and safety, fair contracts and livable wages, and how the Players Association stands with other labor movements.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello, flamethrowers! Lindsay here. So excited for this special hot take edition of Burn It All Down, where joining us is Meghann Burke, the executive director of the NWSL players association, I believe is the formal title. That's something I should have in front of me. [laughs] 

Meghann: You got it. You nailed it.

Lindsay: Yes! Thank you so much for for joining us today.

Meghann: Lindsay, thank you so much for having me. I can't resist a name like Burn It All Down. [laughs] So, I appreciate being with you guys.

Lindsay: It’s a very union-friendly title, I feel like. [laughter]

Meghann: That’s right.

Lindsay: Okay. So we're going to get into it all the No More Side Hustles campaign, negotiations, all that. But just to give us a little background, because this is our first time talking, like, how did you get here? Like, how did you get to this job? [laughter]

Meghann: Why are we here? Existential questions. Yeah. The honest answer is that never in my wildest dreams did I think this would be like a job. You know, it certainly has been a passion, and I feel like the luckiest person on earth to be in this position. So, I am a former player. I have often said that my playing career sort of tracks the story and the history of women's professional soccer in this country during that kind of timeframe, you know, all the excitement of the WSA on the heels of the ’99 World Cup, which was the year I graduated high school. I played at Saint Louis University and aspired to play professionally. I was drafted out of college – that’s why I moved to North Carolina, I was drafted by the North Carolina Courage. And, you know, very abruptly learned what it meant to be a pro in this country when, during preseason, they sat us all down and said, you know, everyone take a 25% pay cut by five o'clock today or there is no league. Don't bother coming to training tomorrow.

I've told that story a few times recently because, you know, not to detour from your question, but kind of the detour from your question. One of the lessons for me as a rookie was seeing my heroes, Mia Hamm, Brandi Chastain, Kristine Lilly, Carla Overbeck fight for the people on the bottom end of the salary scale. At that point in time, you could make a living playing soccer in that league, and they fought to make sure that no one fell below a certain salary threshold. And I like playing this game – do you know what that number was? Do you want to guess what the minimum salary was that year?

Lindsay: I mean, I know because I was doing research today before our interview. [laughs] Sorry, I cheated a little bit, but it was $25,000, right? 

Meghann: That's exactly right. Yeah. 18 years ago, $25,000 was the number that they fought for. The league of course folded later that year, and we were without a league for a few years. I bounced around, like a lot of my friends. I bounced around wherever the soccer was. I went and played in England, came back, had some hilarious stories that probably are not able to be retold on the record here. And then you know, I played in NWSL, played in W-league, the pre-professional or kind of amateur league – for a bit, the only place we had to play. And then I actually, for one of the WPSL teams, I played for River Cities FC, went to work for an investor who was trying to bring a Major League Soccer expansion team to St. Louis.

So, I worked on the business side trying to get an expansion team part of that campaign in St. Louis in 2006 and 2007; helped launch the WPS team that was Saint Louis Athletica. But I knew I wasn't done playing, and I knew I wanted to do some other things. So I went to law school, became a lawyer. I played while I was in law school, trained, missed the 2009 season, the first season of WPS, because I had to get a spinal fusion, which was an injury I didn't know about. So, kind of later in my career, very dramatic. Yes. And then I came back and played in 2010 and played for the Chicago Red Stars and New Jersey Sky Blue. And then after that we helped organize the WPS players union that year. You know, I studied labor law in law school. I worked, I did an externship for the secretary of labor in Massachusetts.

And really, I'd like to think where I got trained up on what the labor movement is and what a union really means was with the carpenters in Boston, the tradeswomen in Boston kind of brought me in under their wing and worked on a project to use stimulus funds to get more tradeswomen and tradespeople of color back into the building trades with the boom that came on the heels of the recession. So, I helped organize the players union with Jennifer Hitchon, who was then executive director, and really in more of a volunteer capacity continued to work with that group of players. And so certainly I was familiar with that stage of women's soccer history, around MagicJack and Dan Borislow and the folding of that league, and then it's revival in a different form.

That league folded on the heels of the 2011 season, and then the NWSL launched in 2013. And it was definitely a different form than WPS had been in. And so then, you know, fast forward a few years, I get a phone call from Yael Averbuch – who I played with the New Jersey in 2010 – in May of 2017, and I'll never forget it because I was driving to the gym, you know, any normal, boring Tuesday for me or whatever day of the week it was as a lawyer. And I'm just trying to squeeze in my workout. I’m not a professional athlete anymore. I'm like, you know, someone who hardly moves. Like, lawyers are the most out of shape people on the planet, I’m sure.

And so I'm like, you know, trying to get my workout in, and she calls and she goes, hey, we just did a thing. We organized the players union, and we just need someone to let us use their legitimate looking phone number to field media calls. So, can we use yours? [laughs] I said sure. I was like, I'm down. And that's kind of how it all started. We reconnected. And so, I tell that story because it really was players who organized this labor union. It was created by and for players. And I've always just been in a background advisory role, really kind of whatever way I could be helpful over the last several years. Fast forward, you know, Yael was the founder of this player's association, its first president and executive director. Brooke Elby came in as executive director.

And with each of us, it's kind of entered a new chapter, and where there's been a lot of overlap and kind of building the groundwork for the next phase. So, Brooke really built the groundwork for this phase of the CBA negotiation that we're in. I came in in the spring, and they were able to make me a full-time offer. I said, you know what? There's nothing like a pandemic to…Speaking of burn it all down! There’s nothing like a pandemic to make you rethink your life choices. I was like, you know what? Time to shut this law practice down, and I'm going to do what I love and really get after it and see what we can do to make a difference in players' lives. So, I've been in this role for, I guess, what is April to now? In COVID time, it can be like six years or six months. It's one of those two. [laughs] 

Lindsay: I’ve never related to a statement more. Exactly! [laughs] For those that don't know, just a little background, as Meghann said, the PA formed in 2017. They still don't have the first CBA. So, in the process of negotiating the first CBA. I believe it was last winter, so, before you came on, right? When the union gave a notice that they were intending to collectively bargain. So where was that? And I mean, I've got to imagine if negotiations had begun, that's kind of weird to come in in kind of the middle of it. That's a big entrance. [laughs] 

Meghann: Yeah, it is. Yeah. So the timeline, the players organized the players association in May of ’17. We were voluntarily recognized in 2018. I was part of that process as a lawyer. And then Brooke really…You know, the central purpose of a labor union is to negotiate a CBA. So I think it's fair to say, like, this is something that had been thought about since the players organized this players association. But then in November of ’20 was when we gave the league notice of our intent to collectively bargain for a contract.That was under Brooke’s leadership. I was at that point still involved. I'd started as chief operating officer in November of 2020. And then, yeah, day one of like being at the bargaining table in person in Washington, DC was my day one as executive director. 

Lindsay: Wow. Welcome! Thrown into the deep end right away. I love it.

Meghann: That’s right. Yeah. Here, catch. [laughs]

Lindsay: You know how to make an entrance, is what you’re saying. [laughter]

Meghann: And truly, I give so much credit to Brooke and the team had prepared us for bargaining because, you know, you don't just all of a sudden send over a proposal, right? There's a lot of work that goes into conducting surveys and collecting player feedback and figuring out what's important and where are we looking to for inspiration or guidance, or where do we not want to look to for inspiration and guidance? You know, many, many months of working, arguably years went into that first proposal in March. And so on the one hand, yeah, I made an entrance; on the other hand, I’m the beneficiary of a lot of hard work by other people, coming into this negotiation with a lot of the work that had already been done.

Lindsay: You're subbed in during the final minute so you can take those penalty kicks a little bit. To use some soccer terms. [laughter]

Meghann: That’s right. That’s a great analogy. Yes.

Lindsay: So, I know negotiations’ been ongoing all summer as we've been trying to organize this. Your schedule has been nuts, and as someone who's negotiated, been at the bargaining table for contracts in media, I know how intense that, like, when you're really getting down to it, that process can be. Although I'm sure it's way more intense for you all!

Meghann: It's all work. It's all intense for everybody. Yes. [laughs]

Lindsay: Over the weekend, we see No More Side Hustles t-shirts everywhere. I want to ask a little bit about the genesis of that campaign first, but second of all, I think there is a press release of sorts that said, you know, we're getting close to a contract, this is kind of our final push. So, how would you describe the stage that you are at now? And what was the point of kind of raising the visibility of the No More Side Hustles movement over the weekend of games?

Meghann: Yeah, that's a great question. So, I'll take that in two parts. I guess I'll start with what was the impetus for No More Side Hustles. And candidly, it's players’ stories. The position that I'm in, I have the opportunity to get to know these players who are just remarkable human beings. They are truly…Like, I almost kind of wish that fans and sponsors and the league could get to know these people like I have, because they're just remarkable human beings who have remarkable stories to tell. They’re thoughtful, they're smart, they're funny they're sensitive and conscientious. And so when you peel back the layers of a person, you really get to hear like what has each player in this done to be in the seat that they're in right now? How did they get here? And for most of our players, that story involves a lot of hustling of different kinds. It involves a lot of setbacks, getting cut, not making it, but being persistent, training in odd ways, taking on a lot of odd jobs.

You know, I've heard from players who made like $6,000 their first year for the whole year and still focused on soccer as their primary occupation, their primary focus. And, you know, players who've scrubbed toilets and worked at gyms and coached and taught and babysat and done different things – despite, by the way, the vast majority of our players being insanely high educated and like off the charts intelligent group of people. I mean, these are people who are going to go on post playing career and probably launch businesses, foundations. They’re going to be teachers and doctors and lawyers. And so very few of our…Actually, none of our soccer players are one dimensional people who do one thing, which is a beautiful thing, right?

I think the idea of the whole “side hustle” is not uncommon to the average working person who, in this country, in the year 2021, one job is not enough, and it should be, whether you're talking about schoolteachers who have to wait tables on Friday and Saturday nights, or, you know, firefighters who are also selling something on the side to supplement their income. So, you know, under no circumstances do we pretend that we're the only Americans or the only group of American workers in this country who work more than one job to get by. But what we wanted to do is, so, we wanted to tell the story of players' lives and their experiences in the NWSL to raise awareness and to introduce people to who they are and what they've done to get here. That was really the main reason.

We also feel that, you know, we're at a point in the end of the ninth season in the NWSL which I think is…I stand by it, I think it's some of the most entertaining soccer in the world. I don't know if you watched the games this weekend, but oh my god, there was a point in the season where there was six points that separates top to bottom! Like, show me a league anywhere in the world that's more exciting than that. You know, this is a really outstanding league, and the possibilities are endless. If we imagine a time when every single player in his league can singularly focus on being a professional soccer player for this limited window of time they have in their lives, to just focus on being the best in the world. I really think it would elevate the entire league. And that's something that we think the league, clubs, fans, everybody should want.

So in that sense, we don't see the No More Side Hustles campaign as some kind of like adversarial concept. We think it's something that everyone who's a fan of NWSL should get behind. I will say that, you know, we've all in the CBA negotiation been working exceptionally hard. You know, Lindsay, if you've been involved in contract negotiations, then you know you only negotiate a first contract one time, and then every time after that you have a framework you're working with. You know, as workers, you might say, you know what? These parts of the contract are fine, but next time around, these are the things that we really want to focus on. Everything is a focus right now. Everything matters in this negotiation.

And so to be fair to the process, it does take time. We would like to think the process began when we first organized in 2017. So for us, it's been a years long process. But if you consider that March was when we first sat down in person at the bargaining table, you know, we've made a lot of progress in that period of time. But we frankly hadn't felt like…As we near the end of the season, you look at what's happened in this league this season, it has to be an inflection point. [Lindsay laughs] It's not that it has been – we don't know if it was or not yet, because we're not through it. But it has to be. We have to come out of this better than we were going into it. And we believe that a CBA can be the way to do that, that securing…Players taking their power back, players having some agency over their bodies, their lives, their careers, their ability to survive, and playing under conditions that allow them to excel and be the best in the world is the way we kick off a 10th season better than we did this season.

And so that's part of the reason we came to a head. You know, last week we were in bargaining and we felt like we need to put some urgency to this. We really feel like we need to dial this up. We need to put the world on notice that we are asserting, players are asserting their power, and we want to take our power back. We want to take our league back. We want to make NWSL what we know it can be, what we believe it can be, and isn't yet. And that's really what this weekend was about.

Lindsay: Like you said, when you’re negotiating a first contract, it's everything, right? And I would guess, I mean, you're nine years in and so there's kind of heightened pressure, right? But what's the primary goal here? What's number one on the call sheet when you're sitting down?

Meghann: I mean, frankly, I think when you look at what the stories that have come out this year of player health and safety, that has to be first and foremost, because if players aren't healthy and if they're not safe, then we have no business with the rest of it. I mean, that's gotta be number one. And frankly it is frustrating that we even have to say it. It seems like something that should be so important and such a high priority to every person and every actor in this league, that it should just be a given, but it's not. And so that's gotta be the top issue we fight for, is that every single player in this league is safe and that we can protect them from things like a toxic work environment or abusive conduct or misgendering players or misidentifying players and their children as has also happened. You know, this can't happen. That's gotta be the top priority.

I would say right up there though is fair contracts. Look, I'm a lawyer. You know, I've been fortunate to work in a small town, in a small firm where I've largely represented people, you know, not corporations, and have been involved in disputes that range from multi-party complex litigation to like a landlord-tenant dispute, and everything in between. And at any level of the law, a contract is a two way street. There's consideration that's given in exchange for something, and there’s obligations back and forth. Right now, the contracts that our players have signed up to this point, they're not contracts, because most players can be fired on 24 hours notice with no continuing obligation afterwards. Yet by operation of league rules, when the season concludes and the contract is over, somehow a club can still retain a player’s rights and prevent her from seeing if she can find a different deal or a better deal or a better situation somewhere else in the league.

And so, you know, we are fighting for fair contracts. And then I would also say that a living wage is a priority. We want and we would think, again, you know, clubs, the league, would want the same thing. They want players to be singularly focused on their playing careers, on being the best in the world, to create…And I don't like the word product, honestly, because we're talking about people, we're talking to human beings who are performing. But I do think it's fair to say that the product is when a fan buys a ticket to go watch a soccer game, what they see and experience, right? We want that to be the best product that we can deliver to that fan. Look, I've got three small kids. Getting all three of our kids out the door, in the minivan, to the stadium, park, get inside, buy food, sit down. That is a lot of work. [Lindsay laughs] It’s really difficult to get to a game in a pandemic.

And when you get there, we want you to have an awesome time. We want a fan to sit there and go, you know what? I want to do that again. That was a rockin’ time. Our whole family had a great time, a good experience. We want fans to experience the best soccer in the world and to have the best environment that they could possibly have as fans. It's not just about the players. To me, that's partly what No More Side Hustles is about, is putting on a product that we can all stand by, it’s being our collective best effort. So, those are the three things: player health and safety, fair contracts, and a living wage.

Lindsay: Yeah. Where are the salaries right now? Everyone, keep in mind what she said earlier, that back in ’99, the minimum salary was $25,000 and that was what they were fighting for. 

Meghann: Yeah, it was actually higher prior to 2003. So, 2003 was when the minimum salary was 25 grand, and right now sitting here today by operation of the league’s own rules, which you can readily find online and are widely publicized, the league minimum is $22,000 in wages. So, $3,000 less than the wages you got 18 years ago. It's not enough to live on. The league would certainly say…And I don't disagree with it, that the clubs are now required to provide housing. That is partly a function of the league unilaterally extending the season and making it longer and longer and longer over the past nine years. And players remember, in the first year of the league, most players probably made like 6 grand and weren't provided housing. [laughs] You know, they might be placed with host families, which may or may not be the right fit for, for example, for a 30 year old woman who's got her own habits and needs within her home.

But putting that aside, the league started providing housing in 2019. That is certainly a significant expense in a lot of the markets. And so we certainly appreciate that, given that players can't afford to find a place to live, that they now provide housing since 2019. So, you can factor that in perhaps to the total compensation package, but when we compare…With the No More Side Hustles campaign, we wanted to compare apples to apples. We want people to understand where the NWSL falls on the wages front. So, in terms of wages…I don't know about you, but I've never been to an MLS reserve squad game, I don't follow the MLS reserve squads. I couldn't tell you probably a single player who's in an MLS reserve squad, and their minimum is something like 66 grand. So, our players are making about a third of what an MLS reserve squad number is making as a minimum salary.

The WNBA – you know, again, I'm looking at numbers all day long, so the exact dollar is probably…It’s like 57 or 58, it's somewhere in the upper fifties is the minimum salary for WNBA. With NWSL, the salary cap is $682,500. There are up to 24 players on a roster that count under the salary cap. This does not include this whole crazy business around allocation money, which is not a very transparent thing and it's difficult for me to even try to explain other than the league acts as a bank and there’s kind of a certain amount of money that the league can spend over and above the salary cap. But putting that aside, if you took 682,500 and divided by the 24 players, you’d find an average, which is very difficult to come to, but it's the best we've got. The average is around 27, 28 grand per player.

I will tell you that we crunched numbers that we had access to, and based on the league’s own numbers, one third of all players were making at or near the minimum salary of 22 grand, and roughly three fourths were making at or below 31 grand. Those numbers have probably gone up since we had access to that information last fall. So, the gist is most players are working…The whole point is many players, most players are working additional jobs to get by. And that's what we want to put a stop to, is for players, if they want to work side hustles because they want to, because they're passionate about it, great. That's awesome. But not because they have to. We want them to be able to focus on, again, creating what we believe can be the best league in the world.

Lindsay: I recently interviewed some of the people who worked on the WNBA's first contract, and, you know, I was talking to Coquese Washington, who was the president of the player's association at the time. And she said, you know, getting that first contract, which they, of course, in hindsight, more incredible that they did this after their second year, were able to mobilize in this way. And, you know, she just went on and on about saying like how crucial it was that it was a living wage, you know? And that was like the main goal. And, you know, by the end of that, they were all making – and this is ’99 – more than NWSL players are making now.

And I think what really gets me is when you think about…You know, I do a lot of my work in the women's basketball space, and it's expected that they go overseas to play. Like, the WNBA season is purposefully during a time of the year that allows the players to go and have another women's basketball job. And of course we don't want them to have to, but the NWSL and women's soccer doesn't really allow that, like, you can go on loans, I think, but it’s…I mean, this season is like eight months long right now. [laughs]

Meghann: It is. So, this was the longest preseason in NWSL history. Of course COVID is a caveat to everything, right? Like, we had a weird season last year with the bubble. We were proudly the first professional sport in North America to return to play. We went into a bubble, not a single COVID positive. And so there is a natural…You need to have a retraining period long enough to avoid injury and prepare players for a new season. I don't think anyone wants to repeat a 10 week preseason, at least not that I've heard. But yeah, I mean, that's another piece of this. There has not been…Look, as a lawyer, I get paid – you know, prior to this job – for my time. I bill in 10 hour increments, right? So, something that takes a longer amount of time for me to do is going to cost the client more money.

If you're an hourly wage worker, you work overtime, you're going to get paid for your time, right? If you were a salaried employee and additional demands are being made of your time, you should negotiate for an increase in salary to account for that time. What's happening in the NWSL is there's been a unilateral extension of the season, it has gotten longer and longer and longer. It used to be, say, March to August. Players reported to preseason on February 1st this year. The championship game is not til November 20th, and preseason if they tell us is going to be either they say February, or I'm hearing maybe even late January. So, players barely even have a two month…It’s actually a 10 month season if you consider the two months between, right? So, there has not been a commensurate increase in pay, even while additional demands are being placed on players for more work.

Lindsay: It makes me very mad. [laughter] 

Meghann: I know. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.  

Lindsay: Burn it all down! I’m really ready to.

Meghann: [laughs] Yes. Yes.

Lindsay: It's like, I know this, and I follow this, and yet still hearing it laid out in just such concrete terms is unconscionable, I think is kind of the, the word for it. 

Meghann: Yeah. 

Lindsay: As far as housing conditions, are they guaranteed to get their own space? Like, is there uniform housing allotments across teams and across leagues?

Meghann: So, if you choose to live in team provided housing – I'm unaware of anyone who lives by themselves. There might be someone out there and I just haven't heard of it, but as far as I know, players are assigned to either two or three bedroom units with another player. And players who are parents who live in team provided housing, their kids are with them and may or may not have a separate room for their kids, which we're trying to address through the CBA. And then, you know, for players who decide not to participate in team provided housing, they can elect to receive a stipend, but I can assure you, it's not going to be the market rate. And it's really up to kind of the teams to decide, were you assigned to a two bedroom or three bedroom? Or what's the value of your stipend?

You know, I will say, the housing stuff, I have not heard a lot of players express too many concerns over the type of housing they're provided. The apartments themselves seem to be okay. Like, our players are not…I’m trying to think of how to say this. They're not expecting to live in mansions in a gated community with like, you know, their own swimming pools or anything. And that's part of why the No More Side Hustles campaign is so important. We're talking about just basic stuff. Our players are willing, they have for nine years, personally sacrificed to help grow this league into a sustainable business. We get it. Our players are wholeheartedly committed to growing the business. And honestly, what we hope for is to get to a CBA, a place of agreement with the league, with the clubs, so that on the heels of it, we can lock arms together and say, hey, let's go out and grow this business together.

We know there's a ton of potential. There's tremendous growth potential for this league, and there's more work to be done to realize it. And we want to do that alongside clubs club owners, GMs the league office, but we've got to be a partner in that. We are independent agents. We are people with basic needs, like needing to pay our bills and perform. And so we're trying to jump that hurdle first, before we can get to that next step post-CBA, which we do look forward to by the way. But the housing situation itself is an interesting one, because I think players for the most part are, you know, if the league can't afford to pay a wage that allows – pardon my language – grown ass women to go out and find their own housing, whatever that might be, you know, an apartment for their families or purchasing a home or whatever it might be. You know, they're willing to live in these two bedroom apartments with a roommate. They’re willing to do these things, but they need basic standards to be met, like having a living wage that allows them to just singularly focus on their soccer careers

 So that's sort of…It’s a whole package. These issues are all interrelated, which again is why we launched the No More Side Hustles campaign, because, look, there's a lot. I could spend hours on this podcast walking through league rules and the way this league has evolved, but the bottom line is we want fans, we want people to understand what players are willing to do and sacrifice to realize this dream and to help grow what we believe, again, is the best league in the world. And, you know, no one's going to listen to me talk about league rules, right? That's a total snooze fest, but what you are interested in–

Lindsay: Well…! [laughter] The Burn It All Down crowd actually might be your space.

Meghann: My jam, I met my people. [laughs]

Lindsay: Yeah. I think you’ve met your people. Like, when you're saying I could talk for hours about league rules, I'm like trying not to drool, I just love this stuff. [laughs]

Meghann: It is fun stuff, but I do think our players' stories are far more compelling than my nerd outs, but yes, I appreciate that a lot. [laughs] 

Lindsay: One unique relationship I want to ask specifically about that we really don't see as much in other leagues that I've covered is we have of course the US women's national team equal pay fight, which has gotten such publicity over the past few years.

And, you know, US Soccer…Does US Soccer still have a little bit of ownership in NWSL? I know they were trying to move away…

Meghann: Oh, good question. So, for the labor folks, this is a fascinating dynamic, right? I mean, for those who don't know, typically in a labor-management relationship, you have one union that is the exclusive bargaining representative of all workers, full stop. The employer deals with one union. So, a weird dynamic here is that the allocated players of the US women's national team, they are assigned to play on teams in the NWSL as a condition of their employment with US Soccer. So they're actually considered…Now, I think there's a legal argument to the contrary, but I'll come back to that. They're considered to be employees of US Soccer, and so they do not sign contracts with the club and NWSL.

Now, what that means is that they are represented by their labor union, the US women's national team players association, as it relates to their employment in NWSL and for US Soccer, right? So, thankfully, let me say this – Becca Roux, the executive director and I, we actually were literally talking as I was like, hey, I gotta go, I'm on this podcast interview in a minute. And, and you know, she's wishing me good luck. And I mean, I consider Becca a dear friend and a trusted confidant, you know, someone whose ideas I'm very interested in always hearing and bouncing ideas around together. So, we are in lockstep. I mean, we are in it together. We function like one union. But yes, so, the US women's national team players association is the exclusive bargaining representative of allocated US Soccer players in the NWSL – say that three times real fast!

We, on the other hand, represent everybody else. So, everyone else in the NWSL signs a standard player agreement with NWSL and their club to play in NWSL. We represent those players. So there's really only, what is it, like 20 players we don't represent. We also represent, by the way, to make this super confusing, the US women's national team players who signed a contract directly with NWSL, like Crystal Dunn and Lindsey Horan, right? Who declined allocation, signed a contract there in our bargaining unit. US Soccer was the manager of NWSL up until I think it was this year that they were no longer the manager of the league. And so they no longer have a role in the day-to-day affairs of NWSL. And I do think that Becca would agree to this, that someday soon we see allocation going away, where there's a cleaner distinction, where only the labor union that represents employees in NWSL.

I would say, I think there's a really good legal argument that both NWSL and clubs are joint employers of our members, and that US Soccer and NWSL are joint employers of the US women's national team players associations members. I mean, who dictates when one of our players goes to work tomorrow morning, or who they report to if they have a problem, or if there's a toxic work culture? Who do they talk to? Like, I think it defies logic to say that clubs aren't joint employers of players’ employment within the NWSL. But maybe that's a topic for another day. 

Lindsay: I think I would agree. And it's so fascinating to me, though. And I think an exciting step to see, you know, players able to forego the allocation – although the fact that there's allocated players and then allocation money and they are completely different things, is probably the dumbest thing I've ever… [laughs] 

Meghann: Can we just call the allocation money, like, monopoly money?

Lindsay: They could have called it anything. And instead they chose to call it a term already used for something else!

Meghann: I will absolutely agree that it is very confusing. Yeah. [laughs]

Lindsay: So at this point, though, you all are not at the table with US Soccer. You are at the table with Lisa Baird the commissioner, and the owners of these teams.

Meghann: The owners have not attended a single bargaining session, but yes, that is who we're bargaining with. We are dealing with NWSL. 

Lindsay: Is that normal? 

Meghann: My understanding is no. My understanding is that you know, certainly I would say in a lot of non-sports contexts, the owners of the company might not be involved in day-to-day bargaining negotiations, but it's my understanding that owners have come to the table in the NFL, in the USL at the end, in MLS. You know, whose money is being spent, right? 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Meghann: So, you know, that would be something that has been of concern, is, you know, we're showing up to every single session…I don't make any decisions. This is not my life. This is not my career. This is not my player's association. I serve at the pleasure of the players, and this is their show. And so we have players at every single bargaining session. We at one point have had more than 25% of our bargaining unit attend bargaining sessions, which, if you've worked in labor circles, you know that that's unprecedented. That's how fired up and engaged our players are.

Lindsay: I really can't believe that there hasn't been a single owner at a bargaining session. [laughs] Friends take from that what you will. [laughs] I don't even know what to take from that exactly. In my talks with Terri Jackson, of course from the WNBA players association, you know, she gave me this great analogy about how like, yeah, ultimately you want this to be a circle, right? Where you're bringing ideas to the table, they're bringing ideas to the table, and together you're figuring out how to invest in and grow the pot. But that's hard to do if the circle is not complete, if everyone's not there. But I love to see the solidarity. I saw, I think it was the NBA players association tweet about the No More Side Hustles campaign over the weekend. But also with the Nabisco workers, with labor unions, doing things that you don't usually think about with pro sports. How did the Thorns FC, those players standing in solidarity with Nabisco workers, how did that come about? And what connections are you trying to make to put this in the perspective of the larger labor union fight?

Meghann: Well, I think the first piece of it is that we are really honored to be formally affiliated with the AFL-CIO, the largest federation of labor unions in the country. You know, I think the message you should take from that is that we're workers just like anybody else, and our players were honored, frankly, to join the picket line with the bakers. I'll just give a big shout out to the bakers who were on strike for more than six weeks, I think, across the country, not just in Portland, and secured an agreement with their employer. And, you know, it sounds like a favorable one for the workers that they fought really hard for. And I can tell you just from speaking to our players what an inspiring and moving experience that was to be on the picket line with the bakers.

It was really powerful for us, and so for them to let us join them was I think something we were very grateful for and it was, you know, yeah, of course we're going to show solidarity to other workers who are in the same fights who we have a lot to learn from. We’re a new union, we're small, but we be fierce. And we are backed by AFL-CIO. We've enjoyed a lot of support, tangible and intangible, from LIUNA, from AFSCME, from AFL-CIO, from the NFL players association, the US women's national team players association, Major League Soccer players association. I had a call with the USL players association recently. And you know, we're workers, and we feel like our fights are the fights that have been fought for decades before us and probably for decades to come. And we just wanted to send a message that we're in it with you. 

Lindsay: What's the relationship between the players association and the Black Women's Player Collective in the NWSL?

Meghann: Yeah, so, first of all, we represent everybody, which means we are the Black players in the NWSL, right? So, first of all, that group is, as I understand it, is a 501(c)(3) organization that was formed among, by, and for Black players during the Challenge Cup in 2020, I think in direct response to a real need. And I don't know if you've ever met Midge Purce, but I mean, god, what an amazing human, amazing player. You know, Ify, who's just on fire this season, Jess McDonald is a friend of mine, we played together. You know, Imani Dorsey's one of our player representatives, also active with Black Women's Player Collective. So, there is a real need for there to be a safe space for Black players in our league, and I think that's what Black Women's Player Collective has been.

You know, I've been asked about the relationship in the past, and I think to be candid with you, I would rather representatives of the Black Women's Player Collective speak to how they feel the players association is looking out for the needs and interests of Black players. You know, I'd like to think that we have been working side by side, you know, and had an open line of communication and have the same issues because we are the Black players. I mean, you know, wages, safe working conditions, fair contracts and a living wage. These are common denominators for every single player in the league. And so I'm immensely grateful to the Black Women's Player Collective for organizing, for speaking out, for the work they've done and the space they provide to our Black players.

Lindsay: When you hear stuff like what's been going on with the Washington Spirit and stories about how unsupported a lot of players felt during the Challenge Cup last year – a lot of the Black players, especially – what role do you want and think the players association should have in addressing those concerns? And I guess just kind of how do you approach that from, you know, the leader of a players association, when you hear, like, members are feeling unsafe and unsupported?

Meghann: Obviously it's our obligation to provide that safety and support to players. And so I don't want to point the finger at anyone other than to say, you know, we have work to do, if a player didn't feel like their player representative, their executive director, their labor union wasn't a place they could turn. That is a top priority for me as executive director to figure out how that happened, why that happened, and what we need to do differently. I think there is work we need to do. And so that's part of the reason…You know, I think we see in this day and age we live in, there's a habit of issuing statements and putting things out on Twitter and that’s…I'm a lot more interested in, number one: the work, and two: the relationships. And so, you know, I feel like I can't sit here and say that the players association was not culpable in that problem. We absolutely are. And I think we've done a lot of reflection on that. And that's something that we absolutely have to address within our group and among ourselves.

I think on the whole, I would say that you've seen this season, that players now are breaking the silence. There's been a culture of silence in our sport, in our league, for far too long. I think that's part of the inflection point that 2021 needs to be. And I think, you know, in the past, where players might have been complicit in their silence, that's changing. And I'm proud to say that that's something that's coming from within, inside our players, and something that we will commit to as a players association today and every day moving forward.

Lindsay: I love that. And you know, I was reading, I think it was in Just Women's Sports, you had talked about how just these contracts, because there's no player power in these contracts, because they can be fired so quickly, because they can be traded, because there's no free agency – which is just staggering! – you know, that's going to lead to silence. That's going to make players be quiet. But also there's this overarching, I mean, this is something you hear time and time again, which is if you don't do X, if you don't take this pay cut, if you don't compromise in these ways, we’re going away. This money is going away. This league will not exist. And I mean, I think what's interesting is, looking back at your history in both the WSA and in the WPS, the players did take cuts! The players did do what was asked of them in a lot of ways, and the league still went away, right? Because ultimately the problems are much bigger than whether the lowest ranked player is making 25,000 or 30,000. Like, ultimately that's likely not going to be the make or break of a league.

Meghann: Thank you for saying that. This is the thing that I often am just like biting my tongue so hard because I'm like, look, you don't launch a professional sports club of any sport of any kind because you wanna make a quick buck. I mean, I'm just going to be honest with all the rich people who are listening to this podcast – which may not be very many. But, you know, sports is not where you make your money. You want to make your money, go buy real estate. Like, this is not a cashflow business, first of all. Now, we obviously want our businesses to be cashflow at least neutral and start turning a profit at some point. You absolutely have to. But that's connected to the fact that pro sports are an increase in value, it's a valuation business. It's you take something and you grow its value and then you sell it. And then that's where you make all your money.

It's more like your home, right? Like, you buy a house and you're paying your mortgage down. You're not expecting for your children to be paying you rent so you can be cashflow neutral. It's when you go to sell your house in 10 or 20 years, it's going to have hopefully doubled or tripled in value. And that's where you get your payout. The fact that most of our players are making 22 versus 32 grand is not going to be the deal breaker. And if you read…I would love to recommend a book to anyone listening, Caitlin Murrays’ The National Team is a tremendous book and it does a nice job of providing some more history, some facts around this question. And you'll come to understand that wages…Look, you got to look at every aspect of why WSA and WPS failed. There are many reasons.

I'm not going to say it's all one thing or another, or that, you know, labor costs weren't unrelated to it. But when you look at what their business model was built upon and then how they executed on the sponsorship front and whether they were able to secure equity and whether you had, for example, what MLS had, which is billionaire oil magnates were willing to bleed millions in order to make the business grow so that someday it would be profitable and they'd sell it and make money, like I just described. Those are much bigger factors in the history of our sport and why it failed or succeeded than whether a player is making 22 grand versus 30, [Lindsay laughs] I’m just gonna throw that out there. I think I got a little fired up on that. [laughs]

Lindsay: Honestly, I think that might be a good place to end. I could go on forever about that, but I think this trend that you're seeing across women's sports of bucking this ultimatum, and of seeing beyond this ultimatum, because the truth is obviously US Soccer saw a bunch of value from the NWSL since the NWSL has been around. They won back to back World Cups, right? Which was, you know, the first time that happened. And you've seen players develop onto the national stage from stars – thanks to the side hustles they kept in order to stay in the NWSL, in order to do that. And the league is expanding. So obviously owners are seeing value in it. I think it's just that that value has to trickle down to the players who are making the league exist on a day-to-day basis. 

Meghann: You said it.

Lindsay: So, what's your timeline, what's your hope for when this contract…? 

Meghann: I still remain hopeful that we can get to an agreement by the end of the year. I really am. You know, I think it's not going to be smooth sailing. We're not just like coasting with the current. We’ve really got to put our shoulder to the wheel, to use as many metaphors in a sentence as I possibly can, to get this agreement done by the end of the year. But I think it can be done. And I'm going to end on a positive note, which is that for all of the pain that a lot of players and fans have experienced this year, these things that have been revealed have always been true. They're not new truths. What you're seeing is a change in culture. You're seeing an end to the culture of complicity and silence. It’s necessary, but it's painful. I don't wish it on anyone, but I really do believe that we can all come out of this better and stronger.

I think we're purging a lot of the sources of the hurt in this league. I believe that this league, the growth potential is enormous. We are part of a movement in women's sports – look at the WNBA, what their players association, their league has managed to achieve. You look at who's investing in our league: Serena Williams, Naomi Osaka, Billie Jean King. The future in the NWSL is enormously bright. And I just want to leave your listeners with that note, which is: stay with us, fight with us, and let's come back in the 2022 season and celebrate the 10th season of an enormously successful league.

Lindsay: How can fans and listeners best support the NWSLPA? 

Meghann: Thank you, yes. Go to NoMoreSideHustles.com. You can sign the pledge to support the No More Side Hustles campaign, which puts you on our mailing list and allows us to keep you up to date. Also, you can donate. All that money goes towards helping us fight for a CBA. You can also buy one of these sweet t-shirts. It will link you to BreakingT, and I'm wearing mine right now…That’s right, this is not on video. So that made no sense on audio.

Lindsay: It’s not on video. [laughter]

Meghann: It's a cool looking t-shirt. Take my word for it.

Lindsay: It says No More Side Hustles, and I actually bought one today.

Meghann: Awesome.

Lindsay: All right. Well, Meghann, thank you so, so much for being on Burn It All Down. We're rooting for you all at the bargaining table, and you're totally right that when you first look at that sunlight it's blinding, and it can really hurt your eyes, but ultimately it's what's needed. So, looking forward to it.

Meghann: Thank you, Lindsay. Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.