Hot Take: Trans Triathlete Chris Mosier on the Importance of Trans Inclusion In Sport
In this episode Shireen Ahmed talks with Chris Mosier, is a trailblazing hall of fame triathlete, All-American duathlete, 6-time member of Team USA, as well as an important activist on trans inclusion in sport. They discuss the harm caused by of proposed anti-trans legislation in Texas and legislation in other states. and how banning trans athletes, especially kids, from sports is an attempt to erase them from everyday life. They also discuss the importance of joy and community as tools for resistance. To learn how you can help, visit: www.transathlete.com.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hey, flamethrowers, Shireen here. I'm so happy to have Chris Mosier on with me today for a hot take. We’re going to be discussing some pretty intense things, so just also a content warning for people, we'll be talking about persecution of trans youth in the United States. If you don't know Chris Mosier, you should. He is a trailblazing transgender athlete and thought leader on LGBTQ+ inclusion in sports. He is a hall of fame triathlete, All-American duathlete, national champion race walker, transgender advocate, highly regarded speaker, policymaker, a brand consultant, and Chicago based superstar. He is also a lover of Qveen Herby's music. Chris– [Chris laughs] But what he is not though, what he is not is not a karaoke expert. Does not do karaoke.
Chris: That is the honest truth. I will not be…I will watch, but I will not be picking up that microphone.
Shireen: Okay. So now, that I know what we're not doing when we hang out, thank you so much for talking to me today. I know that you have been in a lot of demand lately and not necessarily for a great topic either.
Chris: Yeah, it's challenging, but I definitely appreciate you raising awareness and having this discussion about this topic, because I feel like with the news cycle being so turbulent and fast moving right now with so many different things happening and so many different areas for our attention to go to, a lot of the conversation about what is happening to trans youth across the country and trans people in general has really been brushed over and very quickly passed. So, I appreciate you having this conversation.
Shireen: And I just want to start there with like, how are you doing? Because I know I'm probably your 7,000th interview in the last little while. How are you?
Chris: I'm hanging in there. I am tired, I will be honest. I was in Minnesota yesterday for a rally, drove six and a half hours each way to speak for my five minute piece, but I also had the opportunity to meet with some incredible trans kids and their families. And that is really sort of the work that gives me life right now, is having that connection to community. It was so nice to see all the people there in support of the trans community. And just before that, I was in four different states from Friday to Saturday evening doing this work. So, I'm excited to take a nap after this, quite honestly. [laughs]
Shireen: Yeah, well-deserved. So, as we dive into it, I want to set the tone for those that don't know. Very recently, Texas had passed a law that was basically attacking parental decisions and family choices for gender affirming care for trans kids, and qualifying it as abuse by parents of these children who identify differently and don't succumb to gender norms. And I know that you've been visiting a lot of states lately and have been interacting…This must be, as a parent myself, it was horrifying to see. And I'm in Canada, a city outside of Toronto called Mississauga. And as a parent, it's horrifying to watch in this day and age. There's so many things that you say, well, I can't believe this is happening and that is happening.
But truly, you love your child and want what's best for them. And the fact that you can't make a decision…It’s so much more about that, because you tweeted something today that said, “This isn't about best practices and medicine. It's not about sport. It is specifically about not wanting trans kids to grow up to be trans adults.” And that, that just hit. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Chris: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And you know, I was doing a little bit of digging in today and saw that over half of the states that passed anti-trans sports bills into law in the past two years, over half of those states have now moved on to attacking trans youth and healthcare. And you know, number wise, we're looking at 11 states now, in this moment of recording, have passed anti-trans sports bills into law. Two of them this year: South Dakota, which already had one from last year, and Iowa is the newest one in 2022. And in 2020, our first anti-trans sports bill became law with Idaho right before everything shut down for COVID-19. So we're at 11 states right now, and over half of them have shifted their attacks now that they have solidified excluding trans kids from sports from K–12 or K–college. They’re now attacking their ability to access healthcare in really, really scary ways.
And so when I say this is not just about sports, we know it's not just about sports because there is no problem with trans people participating in sports. There's no “global takeover” or “dominance” of transgender athletes. [laughs] There are so few of us out there. And in state after state, lawmakers can't name a single trans athlete in their state, but they're still pushing forward these bills with such intensity and such focus on the trans community that's really, really disturbing.
But this shift this year that is extremely troubling to moving towards these anti-trans healthcare bills is that, you know, it's very clear that they're trying to make sure that trans kids don't grow up to be transgender adults. It's not about sports. It's not about medicine. It's about making sure that trans people are erased and eradicated from our society. And that's what is really, really alarming, because these bills are moving so quickly. And as we mentioned at the top, the attention to this issue just hasn't been paid this year. It hasn't been amplified by corporations taking action. It hasn't been moved by individuals making testimony, and we're just in a position where people are playing politics with an entire group of people's identity.
Shireen: Yeah. The violence with which – and I'll use the word violence, because that's what it is – of this particular policy being pushed through…But I also have questions about and concerns with the way media is not addressing this. Like, we have talked about trans issues on this podcast generally as a practice, but that's not to say, “Yay us.” It's to say, listen, it's a part of the discussion within sports, and it's not hit enough in mainstream media. And why do you think that is? As someone who can speak so well to the media, but understands, you know, the way that media works as well, why do you think this is not being reported enough?
Chris: Yeah, it is being reported a lot. And so like, let's start there. I would say 90% of the coverage has come from anti-trans groups and right leaning media coverage.
Shireen: [laughs] Okay.
Chris: And so if we look at something like Lia Thomas' participation in the NCAA right now, which you covered very well on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, what we're seeing is that the right leaning media articles are coming out – and they're not news pieces. We need to be really clear about that. They are propaganda. This is extremely one-sided “reporting” which is basically putting forth an anti-trans view. And when we are living in this world where tweets are news and people only read the headlines, what they're getting is this really sensationalized version of trans people as bad, as threats, as monsters, as the end of women's sports. And that's what people are consuming. So, part of it is that the media has fueled itself into this space where the common narrative in society is that trans people are bad or wrong, or our identities are not valid or real. And that's what the reporting has said, and that's what people are reading.
And the other piece of that is that there's just a real lack of good sourcing and good reporting on the issue, even from our friendly LGBTQ publications and, you know, middle publications. So, the fact that we're not listening to trans people talk about their experiences and talk about how this is impacting them, we're not hearing from the experts in the LGBTQ space or in the sports space who are working on this every single day. All we're hearing are those few very loud voices of dissent or, in a lot of cases, disgust about our presence, our existence, and our living in this world.
Shireen: Yeah. And you know, I stand in solidarity with trans communities. I'm from a community myself where we're spoken of and not to. We're spoken at, not included, whether it's about Islamophobia, immigration, anything, like subjugation of women, which is commonly misunderstood. As a Muslim woman who chooses to cover, like, I often, you know, I see that. So I totally understand that there are experts in the field. So media, if you're listening, seek them out. Find out who they are and, you know, Chris, you need to take that nap soon because hopefully your phone will be ringing off the hook too. Sorry about that. [laughs] Not really. The point is, is seek them out, because I find that sometimes…And this is, you know, murmurings in newsrooms. So it's a complicated issue that we don't understand. So ergo, we don't touch it. But that's not helpful for anybody. And that as your job, as journalists, is to report on it accurately and fairly. So, do that.
I do want to break down this idea that you talked about of “end of women's sports,” because it's a narrative that's often used in anti-trans propaganda that you mentioned. There's no legs to stand on for this. So there's really not…Like you said, policymakers that are anti-trans can't name a single athlete with the dreaded “takeover,” with the memes that come out of like very masculine looking sort of figures against very femme looking figures. And like, what? Where does this come from? What's the history there?
Chris: Yeah, it's such a problem with the way that this has been spun. And we have to talk about that first, is that, you know, it's important to say this is a coordinated effort on the conservative side with organizations that are funding research studies and message testing, different points to see what resonates with their voter base. They are copying and pasting these bills. So, over the last three years, we've seen the bills that have come out, both about sports and about healthcare, have been what we sort of deem like coming from a bill mill, which is sort of like a puppy mill, but it’s legislation that they just copy and paste. They just print them off and distribute them and whoever will pick them up, you know, that's great for them.
So, this has been a really well-funded project that folks have found really resonates with their voter base, and lawmakers have really taken it and run, especially in the lead up to different elections. So, primaries and midterm elections. So, it is absolutely about politics. This idea around the end of women's sports, and particularly as we approach the 50th anniversary of Title IX, has really been a talking point that has resonated very well, especially when they have been able to position…You know, I’m thinking about the photo that just came out in Iowa when the Iowa governor signed her anti-trans sports bill into law, and the entire background behind her was young, cisgender white girls.
And so, that's sort of this idea of protecting women and girls, is this idea of protecting white femininity and the sort of fragility of being a white woman as part of being wrapped up into sports. And that's an important call out, because what we see with these anti-trans sports bills, the people that they're impacting the most are of course trans people, but also Black and brown and Indigenous women who suffer from the policing of their bodies, whether they're transgender or not. And so when we think about the number of people who are actually in sports and the number of people that these bills policing people's bodies, allowing people to question whether or not someone is actually a woman to be able to play in women's sports, and also determining what that means to be “actually a woman,” a lot of the impact comes on people whose gender expression is a little more masculine or is not within that idea of white femininity.
And so we see people like Caster Semenya suffer from this, even though she's not transgender. We see even more recently in Tokyo 2020/2021, we see Sha’Carri Richardson, the very first thing that came up when Sha’Carri Richardson won, prior to all of the sort of issues with WADA, was that if you typed in her name, it said “Sha’Carri Richardson a man?” And so there's something really about Black excellence, about woman excellence, that there's a ceiling as to, you know, how excellent can a woman athlete be before she's no longer considered a woman?
Shireen: The same conversation happened with Serena Williams. You know, there were cartoons mocking her, putting an incredibly sort of hyper-masculine physique. And, you know, I don't want to say...The author in England of Harry Potter who shall not be named, she actually came out in defense of that. But then that all went down negatively, like, just in such a way where you're talking about straight white women are actually really dangerous in the way…And listen, I'm a racialized woman. You don't gotta tell me about that. But the ways in which that power is politicized, and it becomes extremely dangerous against marginalized communities. And so you're right. That photo, I remember seeing it. And also how heartbreaking it is, you know, for parents and for families, because let's be very clear about this: we’re also talking about children!
Chris: Right? And that's big part of this issue, is that what we've seen in the last two years in particular is that this idea of the very elite of the elite performers in the Olympics and Paralympic Games are having, you know, cisgender men's times compared to cisgender women's times, or even, you know, one of the things that typically comes out in these legislatures is comparing Allyson Felix’s time to cisgender boys’ track times in high school. And you know, we're not talking about the same things here. And so that's the first thing is that we can't be comparing statistics on cisgender people and applying them to transgender folks because it's not the same.
And then the other piece of that is that we can't be taking Olympic level policies and the performance of the most elite performers in the world and applying them to eighth graders or, you know, sophomores in high school and saying that this is what the policy should be, because the goals of sport and the intention of the sports and what we should be getting out of them are completely different.
Shireen: So, one of the things that I did as somebody who's, you know, of course, I'm in Canada – and not to say at all that this is something that is not dealt with. There's absolutely, you know, different levels of transphobia in this country as well. But to watch and to see people panic in Texas, for example, and how devastating that must be to you, but to watch…And the advice that families are getting are to basically leave their homes. Is that kind of what's happened? Did families just pack up and leave?
Chris: We have to think that so many people can't just pack up and leave. Their entire life is there. And, you know, it's incredibly expensive and not possible for everyone, nor should it have to be. You know, it's heartbreaking to watch this and to say…I get messages every day from kids who are terrified, and parents telling me that their kids are having nightmares and that they're making safe files. There are families in Texas who have been advised to make safe files–
Shireen: What’s a safe file?
Chris: So, it would be basically a file hidden somewhere in your house that has your child's birth certificate and medical information, as well as letters from family friends saying that you're a good parent and the letters from your kid's school, like, saying that you take care of your kid and take them to school. And all of this is basically just a file of information that says that you are a good parent and that you love and affirm your kid, because parents are terrified that their kids are going to be ripped away from them for doing their job as a parent. Loving and affirming your kid as exactly who they are is the best thing that a parent could do. That is a parent's job. And, you know, Texas government has stepped in with this opinion that…You know, and while it's important to say that this was an opinion that was issued by the attorney general, and it has no impact, it doesn't change the actual law.
But in sharing their opinion, Ken Paxton left it to the courts to interpret Texas laws and the constitution. And then Governor Abbott came through with his opinion, which essentially said that he wants people to start enforcing this. And while it's not law…And so, you know, parents and families need to know that it's not actually in the legal writings. What has happened is that people have started taking action. There are children's hospitals in Texas that have stopped providing care to transgender youth who have been on care, have abruptly ended their ability to access care because those doctors don't want to be accused of, you know, providing felony level care for a trans kid.
Shireen: And that's what it's become. A felony. It's become a crime to practice…And just to clarify, teachers as well and medical staff and frontliners are now under obligation to report those families and children in particular.
Chris: Yeah. So again, this is not a law. And so all of the attempts of making this a law in the past years, and this has been an obsession of Governor Abbott as he's been trying to ramp up his own political career. None of this is actually written into law, but there's so much confusion around it that medical practitioners are terrified that their license will be taken away if they do their jobs, if they provide best practice medical care that has been approved and endorsed by every major medical association in the country. And so, you know, it's the level of fear, of not knowing what will happen, because this is all escalated so quickly, that has people making decisions about protecting their own business or their own family that is leading trans youth in a really precarious position.
Shireen: And so that whole idea of medical care being withheld by frontliners and healthcare workers who have taken a Hippocratic oath to protect and care for…I mean, does that includes mental health care as well, I’m assuming?
Chris: Because it's not a law, it doesn't implicitly include that. But mental health care is a part of gender affirming care for many people. And it's an important part of…I mean, I am an advocate for mental health and for seeing therapists, and I would say it's good for every single person. You don't have to be trans to benefit from seeing a mental health professional.
Shireen: We all have therapists on Burn It All Down.
Chris: [laughs] Excellent. And I'm a hundred percent for that, and it's terrifying to think that young people wouldn't have access to the tools that could help them live a better life, and to help navigate all of the incredibly difficult things that young people are experiencing right now, living through a global pandemic with, you know, for some of them, their very first experience of knowing about war in a way that's really public to them, or being impacted by the conversations about war. And so, you know, when we add all of these things together, it makes for a really incredible time of need for mental health services for young people.
Shireen: And just jumping back to the point where you said you get emails and text messages from young people, when they reach out to you, what do you tell them when they say they're having nightmares or they're scared for their safety or they're confused? And what do you tell them?
Chris: I mean, it's incredibly challenging, particularly…It’s challenging for both the young people and for the adults, I think, to…I basically try to provide support and just let them know that, you know, I'm out here and I want to serve as a sort of possibility model for young people to know that it's possible to grow up and be happy, successful trans adult, and that you can be loved and you can find love, and you can be loved by your family and friends and have a great community and a successful career, and you can pursue your passions without having to give up any piece of who you are. And I know that that's not very comforting to them when they're concerned that they are going to be taken away from their parents because their parents are providing them with the care that they need.
But I think it's also important for me to instill a little bit of hope in them. Because I think hope is a form of resistance right now. And I think joy is a form of resistance for trans people, because the whole goal of these bills is to try to make it so that the world is so hostile to us that we do not exist, that we will decide to not be trans because it will be too difficult to do so. It’s to try to eliminate trans people. But taking away sports isn't going to make me not be trans, and it's not going to make a kid not be trans. And taking away our ability to access healthcare is not going to make us not be transgender, it’s just going to make our life incredibly more challenging. And so, by telling trans people to lean into their joy, to celebrate their victories and accomplishments and celebrate the love that they have for themselves and other people in their community, that is a form of resistance.
That is a form of advocacy and activism that I think is so incredibly important right now. And that's what I want to encourage young people to do, because the trans community has always been here, and we have been under attack in different forms for many, many years, but we always, always overcome. And part of that is because of our reliance upon our community. And we will continue to support each other and uplift each other and make sure that young people have the care that they need and that families have the support that they need as well. And so my hope is that none of this stops young people from living their best lives.
Shireen: I love that, everything from the possibility model to leaning into joy, and like literally we'll stand beside you in solidarity and sharing in your joy, because that's what it is. And I absolutely agree that resistance and joy and happiness and love are forms…Very powerful. Self-care is a form of resistance. And as Audre Lorde said, caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it is self-preservation, and that is an act of political warfare. And that's what we need right now. All the love, all the self care, everything that we need to do. And I have two more questions of you, because I'm mindful of time, but also, how are you taking care of yourself right now?
Chris: Oh, you know, I'm actually kind of impressed. I've nearly cried during this interview, but I have not. And you know, part of it is just allowing myself to feel the feels because this is an incredibly challenging time for us, and it would be disingenuous for me to not cry when I feel like it, because I am incapable of expressing my love for trans kids and my community without becoming emotional. And I think that that's an amazing super power, you know, to be able to just feel so deeply. So I think the way that I've been taking care of myself is I am quite literally going to take a nap after this, [laughs] because I'm exhausted, but my training becomes a space for me to really take care of myself. And I'm training right now for my next Team USA world championship and coming back from hip surgery.
So, I've had this incredible journey in the last six months to, you know, go from the couch basically to coming back to world championship shape. There are moments in there that are really meditative for me and really helpful in centering and grounding myself in not only my own personal expression of joy through movement, but also in knowing that there is so much positive benefit for my community in me being present on this team, on Team USA, representing our country internationally when, at the same time, a younger version of me is not able to play sports with their friends in school.
Shireen: Yeah, no, I love that. And of course we wish you all the success and joy to get to that place. And then I'm also very cognizant that you are carrying this mental and fighting for justice, for not just your community but others that you mentioned, because our liberation is tied. And so when you do that, it does make a difference in others, and I feel this very deeply. Chris, what can our listeners do, when we're sitting up here in Canada or somewhere else – we have global listeners, like our friends in Australia, our friends in Germany – what can they do in this particular situation?
Chris: It's important to say that while I'm talking pretty specifically about the attacks in the United States on trans kids, that these attacks are happening globally, they're happening around the world. And while in Canada, I will say you have some pretty great sport policies and people who study sport policies in Canada, there certainly are impacts of transphobia, homophobia, biphobia and the erasure of all of these people in sports and in life. And so part of it is familiarizing yourself with the global context here. You know, a lot of the things that are happening in the United States have been fueled by UK based hate groups. And as you mentioned, this is an intersectional movement. So there are organizations that are not only trying to keep trans kids out of sport, but their other focuses are keeping transgender women in men's prisons and making sure that trans people can't change their gender markers on their IDs.
And so all of this is related because when we're talking about attacks on bodily autonomy, it's not just about trans people. It extends to cisgender women, to people who can be pregnant to all different types of communities. And so the intersections of our movements are really, really important. I would recommend that everybody check out transathlete.com, which is my website where I track anti-trans policies and I track all the policies for trans inclusion of sport. But a lot of the focus has been ways that people can take action in fighting some of the bad policies in both the sports space and the medical space right now. And then also please follow me online @TheChrisMosier for updates. While it is pretty North American-centric, there are definitely opportunities to be involved, to take action around the world. And I try to keep up on all of those as well.
Shireen: And I can't begin to thank you. I don't even know if words would be justice for coming on today and talking to us about it and, you know, sort of leading us to where we need to go and what we need to be doing. And I think it's something…This is part of not only a conversation that needs to be paid attention to within the world of sports, but beyond, because as we know, sports is a vehicle to so many other things and so many other conversations about justice within the world. And so again, I thank you so much. You have our full support and solidarity on this team, that’s for sure.
Chris: Thank you. Sport is absolutely a vehicle for social change, and that has been the platform on which I have tried to create my own change in different areas. And it's important that you just said, that because while I always think of it in the positive way of, if I can make people see me as a trans person in sports and maybe change their minds about what it means to be trans or who trans people are, maybe that will help, you know, this kid in a classroom in some area that I don't live in. But what we're seeing is that these attacks on the trans community through sports from lawmakers who hate trans people have also created this incredible social change. And so we are up against a lot right now, and I'm really, really grateful that you took the time to elevate this on their platform. And additionally, I'm absolutely gonna hold you to the promise [Shireen laughs] that we gave in another podcast together to talk about joy, talk about other positive things–
Shireen: Happy things!
Chris: Happy things! You know, the thing is, and you know this, like, it's so important to find joy, even in these moments of sadness and unrest and severe political attacks. And so, joy is a revolutionary act. And I'm excited to spend a dedicated 30 minutes talking with you about that at some other time. [laughs]
Shireen: A hundred percent. In my new role at CBC Sports in Canada, they came up with the suggestion and we shared an idea about me doing an online newsletter…Sorry, it's not a newsletter. An online notebook. So it's just an entry of all the awesome things I have seen and done in the week. So if you have the time and the bandwidth, I file it on Thursdays. You are always welcome to send me something that brought you joy. And I'm happy to share it in this online notebook entry, because I love this. It's absolutely…When we work at the intersections of very deep and important discussions that are also extremely taxing, and, you know, sometimes soul crushing. I'm so grateful to you for saying that, because I believe it's called Joy Drop, and I will absolutely keep you in mind.
And in fact, I will dedicate this week's online notebook entry to you. And I don't want to give you more tasks. That's absolutely not what I want to do, [Chris laughs] but you know what? Maybe I'll put Qveen Herby in there and maybe I'll listen to some of that or I'll eat some peanut noodles, which you also suggested. So, maybe I'll hit up a vegan restaurant this week and keep you posted.
Chris: There you go.
Shireen: There you go. So thank you for sharing that. And people, remember: dissemination of information is key, knowledge is power. So please share this episode and follow Chris Mosier on every platform. And thank you for being with us again, Chris, today for this hot take.
Chris: Thank you so much.
Shireen: This podcast episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg, and Shelby Weldon is our social media manager. Burn It All Down podcast is a part of Blue Wire podcast family.