Hot Take: Women's World Cup Final and 3rd Place Game Preview
Shireen, Brenda, and Jessica preview the Women's World Cup final and 3rd place game!
Transcript
Jessica: Hello and welcome to the Burn It All Down hot take for the Women's World Cup final and third place game preview. This is Jessica here, and I'm joined by Dr. Brenda Elsey, and Shireen Ahmed. And we're just gonna dive right in. We're gonna start with the third place game, because it's first. It will take place on Saturday morning at 11:00am eastern. It is between Sweden and England. And Shireen, what are you thinking about this game? What should we be paying attention to, if people don't know a ton going into this?
Shireen: Well, first of all, Sweden surprised me. I mean, they're not exactly as exciting as Italy and they're sort of…They toiled. They’re very sturdy. They are interesting. Not so much as interesting as I'd say the USA or Netherlands are, [Brenda laughs] I'm gonna be very honest about this. But like, you know how in IKEA–
Brenda: We’re waiting in line a the DMV. [laughter]
Shireen: They're interesting, like a good IKEA bookcase is interesting. [laughter]
Brenda: It is high value, high value.
Jessica: It’s true. It’s true.
Shireen: Very high value. And important to the decor of the room, essential here. And I would be very remiss if I didn't mention one of the most exciting players on Sweden, possibly the most for me, is Kosovare Asllani, who is a Kosovar-Albanian player. She's fantastic. She has gorgeous eyelashes and she's literally key to that squad. She was sadly taken out of the match in a stretcher in a very dramatic fashion with what we think is a concussion. Initially there was a collision, but initially they thought it might be her knee, but it wasn’t, because they braced her neck and they put a one of those helmets on her and then took her off. So the update is that it's probably a concussion. But interesting about about Asllani is that she, before the match started, there was some rumors that she had actually made the black double-headed eagle sign of Albania, which, as those who follow this type of the football from that region know, it’s Granit Xhaka and Xherdan Shaqiri, also Albanian players who had done the same thing, and you get fined by FIFA for doing any political gestures. And this definitely was. I didn't see a gif of it and I saw only one mention of it, of a certain thread. So I don't know if she did it very, very tactfully or very quietly, but someone said she might have. Anyways, I love that stuff. You know I love that stuff.
Jessica: Yeah, I saw multiple tweets about it. I feel like a fair amount of people caught it, but yeah, if anyone has it, please send it to us. [laughter]
Shireen: I would like to see it. I would love it. But not if it incriminates her, but yes. [laughs]
Jessica: It’s interesting, their counter attack is pretty great, but they do have such a hard time getting it going. I mean, they were pressing pretty hard in their semifinal against the Dutch. I mean, in the very beginning.
Shireen: Yeah, I expected…I also found this the Dutch to be a little sleepy, from what we're used to. And Sweden held on. And Hedvig Lindahl, their goalkeeper, is phenomenal, and she really shone. And for me, Hedvig Lindahl, the goalkeepers were the stars of that semifinal.
Jessica: Yeah, it was a goalkeeper game. Brenda, what are you thinking about Sweden and England?
Brenda: You know that I wonder if I'm busy. [laughter] I mean, I think there's like a cruelty with these matches. I think it's so cruel. I feel the same thing about Argentina, Chile's third place game. That will take place the same day, Saturday. It's just like, it seems painful for me to watch. But you know, I think I actually really liked Sweden. I think if Asllani plays that is totally critical, in terms of if Sweden's gonna have any pressure on England. I mean, my money would be on England, just because of the defensive nature of Sweden. I just think like Lucy Bronze is gonna be able to handle that. But I do find it painful to watch those third place matches. I think someone needs to write like a really nice deep dive into like the moral necessity of having them. Honestly. [laughs]
Jessica: Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, it is painful, like, it's a loser match, right?
Brenda: Well, and do you want someone to get injured in that match?
Jessica: Yeah.
Brenda: Like, would you play Messi if you're Argentina? Like, would I play him? Would I play Alexis Sánchez? Would I play Asllani if she's questionable in that? I wouldn't.
Jessica: What are the ethics of the third place game? Hmm.
Shireen: That's really interesting, because like, let's look at that via the Olympics. When Canada played for bronze, it was a big deal that they won. So in that tournament, playing for third was a big thing. And and so it just depends on the structure that you're in, I guess, like for the Women's World Cup, you're right. Like, what do you get? Do you get an award? Do you get a plaque? Do you get a flag? Do you get a sexist comment from Sepp Blatter or a watch maybe that he's left in his office? [laughter] I don't know.
Jessica: Oh, goodness.
Brenda: You get FIFA water and some cookies.
Jessica: Just one bottle though.
Shireen: To share. [laughter] Yeah, I know. You know what, I do agree with Brenda. I agreewith Brenda, I think England still has a lot to prove. And they were third last time, and they'll they're out. And Ellen White can still technically win the golden boot.
Jessica: That's true.
Shireen: She can, because she can still score a ton of goals tomorrow and she's tied with…Isn’t she tied?
Jessica: Well, they have the same number of goals. Morgan has more assists, so she's in the lead.
Shireen: Ah, okay. But she could technically win, which would be interesting. And I really liked her response. I'm not a big fan of Phil Neville, but I really thought that Ellen White's response post-match was really sincere and lovely, and she wished she wished the US very well. And I appreciated that.
Jessica: And let's get into the big one. So, Sunday, 11:00am eastern/9:00am Pacific. The US will take on the Netherlands. I mean, this is just…The narrative almost rights itself, right? The US is going for their fourth World Cup championship. It'll be their second in a row if they do it. The Dutch made their debut four years ago, and here they are in the final. Of course they won the Euros two years ago. So you really do have this kind of upstart European team against the, you know, very old dominant US team. Brenda, what do you think? What do you think the Dutch will bring to this? What are their strengths?
Brenda: Well, I'm really interested…Well, I mean, it's all gonna be, in my opinion, about the Dutch’s forwards and offensive power and the question of whether Lieke Martens plays. For me, it's sort of like–
Jessica: Because of her toe is injured?
Brenda: Yeah. Her toe, it's been a big deal, you know? And she hasn’t looked herself. And she's one of those people that can creatively get behind US defenders. Like, she's really good. She's really fast. And I love her. I don't think she's playing quite the way she played at Barcelona this season. She looks like it's bothering her. So I'll just be really curious. And then van de Sanden, we can talk about her. She makes a lot of errors, like a ton, but she’s–
Jessica: And she didn’t start in the semifinal. They brought her on.
Brenda: She got subbed in. So, van de Sanden for me is really exciting and explosive. She's the last member of the Olympique Lyonnais team left in this tournament, you know?
Shireen: Oh, wow. Okay.
Brenda: She's fantastic. But for me, a ton of turnovers, and US defenders just aren't gonna let her get away with that. The Swedish ones didn't either. So, they shut her down pretty well, despite the fact that she subbed on with a lot of energy. So, I mean, I think the fact that you've got Lieke Martens in that position, you've got van de Sanden, and then you've got Miedema, who's amazing, right?
Jessica: Yeah. She really is.
Brenda: She is just incredible. So, I mean, if those three showed up and had the game of their lives, I think they can score on the US, but otherwise…
Jessica: I think I read, and I'm like, don't quote me – here I am on a podcast! – but I'm pretty sure that the Dutch had eight players who've scored in the tournament so far, and the US have had nine. So we have two teams that have lots of people on the pitch who can make a lot of stuff happen. And that's exciting. I would like to hear, Shireen, what you thought about Naeher for the US, the goalkeeper. I thought last game was really the first time I feel like she proved herself in a way that we've all been waiting for. How are you feeling about her going into this match?
Shireen: So, I know that one of my biggest things about the US, and I told, you know, this team, my Burn It All Down team, the team, that my biggest worry for the United States was always Naeher. And you all know this. I think when you say she proved herself, there's a couple of things here. First of all, I think that experience matters. And to me, she looks nervous every time. I feel that she looks really hesitant and she looks almost a little overwhelmed. Now, the thing is, is that I really…I mean, I guess it's extremely daunting to be in that to begin with, but then you actually have someone like Sari van Veenendaal who just looks like she's going to protect that space. For me, I don't know. I know that Alyssa Naeher is introverted. That's what I've heard through the soccer media world, that she's very quiet. But I think that we also have to look at the issue of how the pen was. The pen was not the best pen that Stephanie Houghton has taken. It wasn’t the strongest shot in the world. So, Naeher did what she needed to do, yes. Was it the best save I've ever seen? No. In my opinion, Hedvig Lindahl is a better goalkeeper, a hundred percent. Like, that matchup, like we talked about, between the two keepers in the semi, the Netherlands and Sweden, was far superior. I will say it again.
But this is exactly what Alyssa Naeher needed moving forward to the final. She needed that pump up, and that's exactly what happened. So I hope she can use this to her advantage. Defensively, the United States is solid. But I do think that it will be, if Netherlands play like I hope they do, she'll have her hands on the ball a lot. Like, she'll have a lot of action. And I really hope they don't come out looking tired like they did. I mean, it's easy for me to sit here and be like, “You're so tired!” after four weeks of intensive soccer in that heat, but yeah, they looked sluggish to me, the Netherlands did. But Lieke Martens is healthy because she didn't start the last game. Neither did Shanice van de Sanden, but Vivianne Miedema, they're out to get it now. And I hope that they can muster up that excitement and that energy for the final. And if they do, the US will have a lot to contend with.
Jessica: I'm excited that both coaches are women. I think it's been since 2003 that we've had that. And I just wanna mention it because it's always exciting. These are also two incredible fan bases. I think the energy in the stadium is probably gonna be pretty intense. I got to see both of them in action when I was in France, and they're fun. So, you know, the crowd part of it will be really neat. Brenda, you told us, you know, some of the Dutch players that you're gonna be looking for. Who do you think will make the difference for the US if they're gonna pull this one off?
Brenda: Okay. So, here's the thing about Jill Ellis. I mean, I think that Shireen’s the Jill Ellis whisperer, [laughter] so we can ask her. It’s like, I can't even collect those thoughts until I see who's starting.
Jessica: Yeah, it's hard. Yes.
Brenda: I’m so confused. I mean, I had to say that, you know, I was a little bit disappointed in Tobin Heath's last game. I felt like the right was super quiet. You know, I feel like she has a lot of good communication with Rapinoe over on the left. And I think there was a little bit of maybe a funky adjustment going on there between the two of them in the midfield. So, I don't even know, because the whole thing's been so surprising. Whereas like the Netherlands, one thing that may end up being to the Dutch advantage is the consistency of the coaching decisions. It has seemed like they know and are willing to speak about what that lineup's gonna look like, right? When you've got Ellis just like, we're not sure if Rapinoe didn't start because of the hamstring or because of maybe the defensive work that Press could have done on England's right or left. Right or US left, whatever. Do you know what I'm saying? So you kind of feel like both of them seem like very adept coaches, but I feel like I just don't know until I see that lineup, you know, what's gonna happen. But I think Tobin Heath could come up really big. Like, she's been…It’s not that she's playing badly, right? She just hasn't seemed to get enough going on that right side to really finish it off like I've seen her do in NWSL.
Jessica: Right.
Shireen: Yeah, that's a really good point. I think Tobin Heath is also frustrated with Tobin Heath at this point, like, her face…And you're right, Brenda. Lieke Martens was subbed off. It's not that she didn't start. She was actually subbed off, which surprised me, because I think she was injured.
Jessica: It was pretty early. It was a really early sub, yeah.
Shireen: It was very early. Yeah. And that usually indicates it's a medical or like a health issue, like there's an injury. I don't wanna say injury, but there's something that was tweaking that wasn't quite right. But as far as Jill Ellis goes, the one thing I have said in some of the interviews I've done is that Jill Ellis has done her homework. Jill Ellis has looked at the opponents and she’s strategized and created formations where they needed to be. And that's the one thing I appreciate about her. I also appreciate that this is the first final since 2003 where there's two women coaches. And that matters to me, just also the way this is handled. I love the Netherlands, and we talked about their crowds. Like, you've got the sort of boisterous Dutch versus the belligerent Americans and the feistiness of everything, the star spangled, the banner, will it get over in a sea of orange? Like, you know, this took a whole dramatic metaphor…I'm sure I could go on. I just think it's gonna be really loud and super obnoxious.
And because I am not emotionally invested that much, the most thing I'm emotionally invested is I do love Tobin Heath very much. Like, I just really think she's a fantastic player, and I'm all for Shanice van de Sanden, because she was wearing like highlighter the other day, and it was glorious. I really need to do an article on makeup on the pitch, is what really needs to happen. But I’m just gonna enjoy it for what it is. I'm also, you know, just take one step back again. I'm really excited to see what happens with Sweden and England. I'll be interested. But the final of course is where…It’ll be a very, very energizing, riveting match. I really also don't hope it's like a 2-0 in the first 20 minutes. Like, I just don't want that, because that's not…
Jessica: Yeah. You want a full game?
Shireen: I want a full game and I want that pushback.
Jessica: You want the tension.
Shireen: Yeah. We were all exhausted. I don't want a penalty shootout because then you might as well just give it to the Netherlands right now. [laughter] I know that's like a strong thing, but I want a full game, and I think that if the US comes out scoring really like they have been the entire tournament, the Dutch will have to respond.
Jessica: Well, let's do predictions then. Brenda?
Brenda: 2-1 the US…Well, okay. Lieke Martens healthy, van de Sanden listening to directions, [laughter] 3-2 US? No Lieke Martens, everybody off the rails, 2-1. I'm trying to think of how many chances they can get, you know what I mean? Like, how many chances they can get. Either way, I think that the US have an advantage. Here's just one thing on fan things before we end, because it's been so awesome, is to say in the rest of Europe, you know, the Dutch are considered really rude.
Jessica: [laughs] So we just have lots of rude fans in this match.
Brenda: So, I think like all of Europe's gonna be like holding their nose, right? [Jessica laughs] Because you have like the US team and then you have the Dutch, and I feel like somewhere, you know, Swiss people are gagging or something. You know, I don't know, like, I just have this picture, because everywhere you go, they say like, oh, the Dutch fans are so obnoxious and the US always has their flags. And I'm like, wow, both are just gonna be bringing it to this final and driving French daintiness crazy. And I think that's kind of awesome. [laughter]
Shireen: I think I'm waiting for all the British op-eds talking about how belligerent the whole thing was. [laughter]
Jessica: I’m not waiting for those!
Shireen: And I'm gonna sit up here and look down and just sip my chai and be like, yes, British folks, you opine about everything.
Jessica: They do.
Shireen: No, I’m looking forward a little bit to the sort of uncouth behavior you have, like, which I don't think is uncouth, I think is fine. But I'm excited about that. I have to say, I've been reading a lot this week, reading US women's national team players’ responses and listening to their interviews. I'm not saying there's not a problem with arrogance, as I see it, or American exceptionalism, but I'm just saying that the standard by maybe which I've been holding Americans to might have been influenced by my colonial past. So, I need to decolonize that. And if they wanna be brash or whatnot, I'm here for it. Because for me, the turning point was the British criticizing the Americans. For me, a switch flipped in my head. I was like, no, I'm sorry. [Brenda laughs] I don't want the catalyst to be that, like how retched for my life, if the that's the catalyst for change of thought. But truly, I was like, no. You don't get to do this. And I wanna see camaraderie on the pitch. I wanna see all this and I think we'll actually get it in this match. I think that we've seen a lot of compassion of the players, compassion that manifests through movement, mobilization and being outspoken. And we've seen it in the US, definitely. We've seen empathy. We've seen it with Netherlands, with their support of other teams. So let's not forget that too.
Jessica: All right, Shireen, give us your prediction.
Shireen: Oh god! I was hoping you would forget if I kept talking. [laughter] God, um…
Jessica: You could just tell us who you think is most likely to win.
Shireen: I feel like the United States will win, but I want the Netherlands to win. I think it's going to be 3-2 for the US, also pending Lieke Martens’ health, full health. And I don’t know honestly if Pinoe is as big as a factor, because I think with exception of Julie Ertz who underwhelmed me in the semi, I think that the US bench is very deep and they can handle it. So that's what my thought is.
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it feels like it's the US's game to lose, but what a hell of an upset if the Dutch actually do this. And I think they have the pieces that they could, but I do think it'll probably be like a…I mean, I think the 2-1 US makes the most sense, but man, I hope we see more goals than that. I would like that.
Shireen: Are you going to be wearing red, white and blue?
Jessica: No, probably not. I didn't the other day. I did wear my Captain Marvel shoes. [Shireen laughs] So I'm gonna have to do that again. I have Captain Marvel sneakers, the Candace Parker ones. So I might have to do that again. I did wanna ask one last question. Where are you guys gonna watch? Like, how are you? Do this by yourself? Are you like solo watchers? Do you try to find a group? Where are you gonna watch this match?
Brenda: I have to be on France 24 right after, and so I have to be by a stable internet connection, which allows me to also justify the fact that I have to watch the second half by myself. I will permit my middle daughter with me because she calls offsides faster than me or VAR. [Shireen laughs] And she spends most of the time away cowering with nerves anyway. So, that's sort of what's permitted. But I really don’t…This has been such an important tournament to me, and it's really hard for me to do it with people who don't have as much emotional investment.
Jessica: Oh, interesting.
Brenda: Like, what if I'm sitting next to someone and they're just like, oh, Rose Lavelle. Oh, who's that? Oh, so she might be healthy? Does that matter? And then I have to explain that, and then I’m upset.
Jessica: You just wanna watch? Yeah, that's fair.
Brenda: I wanna watch and I wanna follow you all and Twitter and what people that I love what they have to say about soccer will say.
Jessica: That all sounds good. Shireen, what are you gonna do?
Shireen: I will be at home with my kids watching. I had some requests from people to come and watch it with me, but I get really tense during these. This is no surprise to any of you. I think that my kids are good. My third son will probably make some type of remark. Like, every prediction he's made and said I support this team, even randomly, has gone through. So I am gonna ask him not to talk at all and just sort of…And then, you know, I'll be like, don't make any noise! Don't do this, don't do that. So I'll probably be really irritable and insufferable. And I pity my children. But I like having Jihad there to watch because I feel super validated when she comments as well, because of her experience as goalkeeper, she says things and then she'll agree with me as well. So I say…You know, this is sad. I feel validated by a 17 year old. She's been alive for like five minutes. [Jessica laughs] But that's who I'm watching with.
Jessica: But she’s deep in the game though.
Shireen: Yeah. Yeah. But this is like my comfort space. Like, I don't think for this particular match and matches that are important to me that I could be in public watching it. [laughs]
Jessica: Yeah. See, I really enjoy being around other people when the match is going on, but I have to be able to see it. This has been like a whole thing, is like figuring out where I could go to watch it, because they like to do a lot of stuff where they like set up a screen and everyone's supposed to look at that screen. I'm like, no, I need to be able to see what is happening. I did have trouble during the semifinal, the US game I watched it with a bunch of friends at a restaurant. And at one point I said to them, I was like, if I was at home, I'd be up and pacing right now. But it would feel weird to do that in a restaurant. So I've actually thought about hosting people to my house. So we might do that in the end so that I know for sure that I will be able to see it but also be around people. But I'll definitely be up and pacing. I have a hard time watching at certain points. I'm definitely…Like, I watch through my fingers, but I'm very excited. I love the feeling of these big moments like this, even if it's a little painful, there's still something so thrilling about it.
Shireen: Oh, for sure.
Jessica: Thank you, Shireen and Brenda, for joining me on this Women’s World Cup final preview, and we will be back as normal on Tuesday with our wrap up of the entire tournament. So stay tuned.