Interview: Crystal Dunn, World Cup Champion, NWSL star, and organizer of Black Women's Player Collective
In this episode, Brenda Elsey talks with legendary soccer player Crystal Dunn about her early days of soccer, how she thrives at every position, forming the Black Women's Player Collective, and moving to the Portland Thorns.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Brenda: Welcome to our very exciting interview with the legendary Crystal Dunn – US women’s national team player and newly-minted Portland Thorn. We are so excited to have you on Burn It All Down. Welcome, Crystal!
Crystal: Thank you so much for having me.
Brenda: Okay, so I wanna get right into it. There’s so much that we’d love to talk to you about but obviously what’s really important and pressing for everyone is the larger Black Lives Matter moment. I wanted to start…I’ve taught on Long Island for a very long time. You are one of…You’re the best thing that we’ve probably produced in terms of women’s soccer! I apologize if I’ve left anyone out. Long Island is a very segregated place. I’ve taught there long enough to know, I’ve taught there at Stony Brook and now at Hofstra almost 20 years. So, I have to ask you, what was it like as a youth soccer player, as an African American youth soccer player on Long Island?
Crystal: Well that is such a great question because I feel like as I’ve gotten older I definitely think a lot more about my upbringing, you know? I think as a kid you just see the world one way and you grow up and you’re like, oh my gosh, let me go back to my roots where it all started. So, yes, growing up on Long Island – I’m from Rockville Centre, it is a predominantly white neighborhood. My family is all basically from Queens, so they moved me out to Rockville Centre when I was about 2 or 3. That is really where I first saw soccer for the first time, you know, and I think I really owe my parents moving me out to Long Island to really why I started this sport, because I don’t think I would have that awareness and that knowledge of even what soccer is, you know? My parents definitely didn’t grow up playing that sport and they didn’t watch it on TV, so I think that is a really cool thing that I definitely hold dear to my heart about just Long Island in general. It is a soccer hub and there’s soccer everywhere, so I’m very very fortunate that I was able to grow up on Long Island.
With that being said, yes. I, and I know many Black girls have this same experience, but I was one of basically just the only Black player on the team, you know? I didn't think anything differently when I was a kid. I was like, okay, yes, I’m different. I look different, I know that. But that’s my normal, you know? That’s what life is. I think as I got older I realized that there were a lot of Black girls that had the same experiences as me, and that’s when I really decided that this is not normal, this shouldn’t be the norm. It shouldn’t be just one or two Black girls on a team. This sport should be opened up to so many of us, and I think that's when I started to realize, like, me growing up in a small town, those issues are not just in that town. It’s everywhere. So as I got older I think my eyes started opening up a little bit more and I realized that there is a bigger issue ahead.
Brenda: You decided to go to UNC, which is a legendary program – legendary player, legendary program! Using the word a lot! But UNC, was that an obvious decision for you when it happened? How did that come about?
Crystal: Yeah, I mean, choosing colleges nowadays is so stressful, you know? I think especially when you’re an athlete, obviously your parents want you to choose a school for the academics, like, “Choose a good school, we want you to graduate with a really great degree,” right? Of course parents want that. But then as an athlete you wanna choose a school where you wanna win – you wanna start, you wanna play, you wanna make your mark in your sport playing for a college that you feel like speaks to you. I think when I was about 14, 15, that’s when I was like, okay, colleges are starting to reach out, I’m a little anxious about it but I’m gonna take my time. I’m known as a late bloomer, I feel like, because I was 17 when I committed to UNC. A lot of people were like, “That’s so late! What took you so long?” I’m like, I don’t know! I didn't wanna rush, you know? It’s a big decision. But my choice to end up at UNC wasn’t a hard decision. Like you stated, it’s a legendary school, it’s a dynasty. There’s so many great players that came through that program. I think a part of me wanted to compete on those same playing grounds and fight for my position. I think what Anson really sold me on was not guaranteeing that I was gonna be a starter but saying, hey, I believe in you, I believe in your qualities, I’ve seen you play a bunch of times, but you have to earn your right to start, you have to earn everything that comes your way. I think that was when I was like, yeah, you’re right! I have to earn my spot, you know? It’s not enough for me to say I’m Crystal Dunn, this player that has definitely achieved a lot in her high school years and her club years, but that success has to carry on and it’s not given. It’s something you have to work at every single day, and I think that was when I was like, I’m going to UNC – I’m gonna earn my keep and I’m gonna be amongst the great names and just be a part of journey.
Brenda: What was your relationship like with Anson? What was it like playing for him?
Crystal: Oh, Anson, Anson. He is an interesting man. But he really encouraged us to compete, and I think competition and women are sometimes…You know, a lot of people are like, “women shouldn’t be competing,” or there’s this stigma of women feeling strong and being able to wanna outwork somebody else and achieve all the things that they wanna achieve. I think when I was at UNC it was encouraged to compete, it was encouraged to be at your best because you wanted to be at your best so your teammates can also bring out their best game, and then everyone is getting better. So I think Anson did an incredible job of just always making sure that people wanted to compete and you wanted to lose and almost be like, wow – that’s unacceptable! Next day I don’t wanna have that feeling ever again, even if it was a 5v5 tournament or a juggling drill, whatever it was. He just fueled us to want to be at our best, and I think my relationship with Anson was just incredible. He definitely never treated me differently, and I think that that is so important. He always made me feel like even if I have this stardom around me that I just have to bring it every single game and every single training, and I think that’s what I try to encourage most athletes these days is to just earn your keep every single day, don’t take anything for granted and just wanna get better and wanna compete.
Brenda: I don’t know how many times you’ve been asked this, but as a professor – do you have a favorite class?
Crystal: Oh, favorite class! Favorite class…Let’s see. So, I’m a soc major.
Brenda: Yay!
Crystal: I love sociology because I really think that just really understanding how groups of people work together in the most efficient way was something that always caught my eye, because you can just apply it to everyday life, you know? Just in your neighborhood, just think about the people you see every day and why you’re able to connect and talk and everyone be included in this one little area, you know? So, definitely my sociology classes I was intrigued, I was always trying to read up early and make sure that I was prepared for answering questions the next day in class. That was probably the one area that I was like, I wanna be a nerd, I wanna be a geek in this class. [laughs]
Brenda: It’s got a different kind of competition to it.
Crystal: Yeah! Exactly.
Brenda: It can fuel you! You can bring it every class. It’s pretty interesting. So, I wanna ask a little bit – a lot of the women’s soccer community and even your teammates and maybe myself and some of my co-hosts at Burn It All Down have occasionally felt as though you’ve been slighted along the way for certain awards. I’m not asking you to complain, but what does that feel like when you read people coming out and saying that about you, that you have been such a kind of strategic player for the women’s national team, such a smart player, such a workhorse – all the things, all the things.
Crystal: Wow, that is…Oh my gosh. I hope I don’t tear up, because I have been thinking about this for like a while now, I think. Me being a versatile player has been great, awesome, I’m unique, I’m in this own space that I get to exist in, and also I feel like it’s a curse at times, you know? I feel like my identity really gets lost in the league. I’m known as a player that is a midfielder, I cause havoc, I create goals, I assist – all of these qualities that I think resemble who I am as a player. Then I go into national camp which is where it’s a huge stage, there’s a huge spotlight on you, and I’m an outside back, a completely different position that requires me to be in a completely different mindset throughout the game. I think I’ve really struggled at times because I’m almost envious of everybody else for being able to be the same person and player, I feel like, in camp and out of camp and wherever they are. They know they’re a midfielder, they know they’re a striker, they have their identity kind of solidified. For me, I don’t get that, you know?
But I will say, what I do get is perspective, I get appreciation of all the positions on the field. I connect well with my teammates because I understand if I’m playing as a left back I’m connecting with my forward. I understand the life of a forward, I understand the runs that need to be made and just the movements that I feel like I’ve found myself in before, so it is kind of a little love-hate relationship I have with my role as a player, and I think that’s also why I have seen people say that I’m slighted. I think my role on the national team has pretty much been to fill the holes and wherever we may be missing a person or player that they are still searching for, I’ve always been the one that has to plug the hole. It’s a compliment, but am I the one who’s making headlines the very next day? Hasn’t really been me, or I haven’t felt like I’ve gotten where I needed to be, notoriety-wise.
You know, it hurts sometimes. Some days I wake up and I’m like, ugh, bummer, I really felt like I had a good game and I didn’t make the headlines! But I will say I’ve just never been that person to play this game for all the fame, you know? What I get out of soccer is the connections I get to make, the friends I get to have. Everything that soccer has brought me is why I continue to play because it is such a special sport that has brought me all over the world, and just the feeling that I have every day when I step on the field, the passion that I want to put out there every single day is more than all the accolades that I may not get or the recognition that I may not get. It makes me work harder, you know? Maybe I’m even more pissed off the next day because I’m like, “Ahh, should've been MVP of this game but I wasn’t! Ahh, going back to the drawing board!” You know?
Brenda: Write this! [laughs]
Crystal: Exactly. Exactly! But I will say, when I speak to young kids I always tell them you really have to enjoy this sport and play it for the right reasons because you will drive yourself insane if you compare yourself to other players or you only play to win these trophies or wanna be in these moments that will come with hard work and dedication but, you know, it should be the journey that you focus more on, and I’ve had an incredible journey. I don’t regret anything and I’m unique for it and special for it.
Brenda: Absolutely. What I try to say as a mother of a U12 player who’s on the shorter side and who gets played as a right back, a right forward and a midfielder depending on “what is needed,” we’ve watched you and I always try to say, “Just like that! Just like that.” What she comes back to is she reads it so well. She says, “See! That’s because she does all of those things!”
Crystal: Exactly. So how does she feel about it? Is she excited? Is she like, “Okay, coach needs me to play right forward, or right mid, or right back – I’m fueled and excited about it.” Or is she like, [weakly] “Okay…”
Brenda: I can’t wait for Luna to hear this because she feels exactly how you do.
Crystal: Oh, yeah.
Brenda: She does it…She wants an easy label. She wants a set of things to work on.
Crystal: Yes.
Brenda: Instead she feels like she’s constantly working on every single aspect of the game itself.
Crystal: Yes.
Brenda: So it’s like, “What drill could I do?” Well, I don’t know. Any of them but keeper! [laughter]
Crystal: Exactly! That’s exactly how I feel. I think at a young age it is disappointing, I feel like is the word, when you do feel like your coach wants you to play in multiple positions. But in the long run you’re so much better for it. I am so much more technical because I can bounce around and be someone who can fill multiple roles and play in multiple positions. You don’t just get to do that because you’re fast or athletic, and I think that taps into a whole other conversation of just me talking about how you really should label players, and when you’re critiquing players don't say they’re just athletic and that's why they can play multiple positions. Because I can tell you right now I’m not always the most athletic on my team, but I do not think that everybody can be the 10, be the 4, be the 9, be an outside back. That’s skill set, that’s knowledge of the game. I think that that stuff needs to be highlighted way more than, “They’re fast, they’re athletic,” you know? Yes that’s part of the game, but that is not all of what soccer is made of.
Brenda: Did you feel like some of those labels came because they were racialized?
Crystal: I mean, at times. I think I can't make that judgement call on all the comments that have come my way. Just to say, you know, it’s because I am a Black girl on the national team, that’s why they’re labeling me this way. But I do think there are times that I feel like they wouldn’t say this to a white player in my position, or another player that is similar to me, has similar qualities. So, I really do hope that I can help push that message forward to commentators and coaches to just really see the game and not get caught up in, “Oh, I’m just gonna make this statement and it’s not gonna harm anybody,” because I think especially with young kids, their minds are sponges. What they hear they are gonna carry with them and they’re gonna think, “Okay, this is what coach thinks of me, this is who I am.” As an older player, to me I’m like, I’m 28 years old. Am I really listening to what someone says about me? Not a whole lot, because I’ve grown into myself and I know who I am as a player, but I do think as young kids you often hear something and you’re like, “Okay, this is what coach thinks of me, so therefore that’s the only opinion that matters, that’s who I am because somebody said that’s who I am.” So, definitely for coaches coaching younger kids: please be smart about what you say and really critique them on their qualities and not just get caught up in some of their attributes they may possess but see them as a whole player and try to develop a well-rounded player.
Brenda: So, this past summer after Breonna Taylor’s murder, and George Floyd’s, there was a massive Black Lives Matter movement. It has sparked obviously a lot of change across sports. How did Black Women Players For Change come about – the new organization in NWSL?
Crystal: Yeah, so, we started a group and it is called Black Women’s Player Collective. We’re really excited about it.
Brenda: Sorry – collective! Collective.
Crystal: No worries!
Brenda: Black Women’s Player Collective. Got it!
Crystal: We started out as basically being a support group, you know, just being able to come together, create a space for all the Black women in the NWSL to vent and just speak on things that they’ve experienced and just create a safe space for them, because our issues on the women’s side compared to the men’s side is definitely different, you know? The men have the representation, they have multiple players on each team to really feel heard, whereas in a lot of our NWSL teams there’s maybe only one Black player on a team, and that can be extremely overwhelming given all the events that have occurred this year. How did they feel like can speak to their teammates, you know? It was challenging. So I think creating this group came at a really good time because we knew events were happening and occurring and, you know, we just wanted that space to be laid out for players. Now obviously we’re excited because it is an offseason, we have a bit of downtime, but this is when we feel like we could push initiatives. A lot of our initiatives were voter education and making sure people were getting out there to vote, and from the looks of things I think it worked!
Brenda: Woo-hoo!
Crystal: Yay!
Brenda: Yay!
Crystal: So, obviously now that the election is behind us a lot of our initiatives will be focusing on helping young Black girls get more involved in soccer and pushing for programs that will allow scholarships, just certain initiatives that we think should be targeted mostly towards Black women because we feel like we are somewhat in a different fight than our male counterparts, so we're really excited about just making this space specifically for women.
Brenda: Yeah. What’s been the reaction to the group so far?
Crystal: Yeah, so we’ve been in a lot of conversations with our commissioner, the NWSLPA. We’re trying to figure out the best way relationship-wise to move forward because they have voiced that they want to support us and we’re obviously so appreciative of that, but we also know that we’re in a very unique time now where we as Black women feel like we should not be asking permission for some things. We should feel like this is how we feel, this is our voice, and therefore you’re kind of either really with us or you’re off to the side, and I think the NWSL is realizing that it can no longer really sit back and let them kind of take the wheel. It’s actually our time now to be in the forefront and really drive these conversations, and I think they responded really well and they understand that we don’t want just anyone speaking for us. If there is a matter that is a racial matter we would love to be in the conversation. If there’s a message that they’re gonna put out there we would love to know what the message is because there’s been some misunderstanding and miscommunication, I think, whenever a message is being put out. It sometimes doesn’t represent how we all feel, and I think they understand the issues and the problems that that can cause in the future. So yeah, right now we’re just working on continuing to build our relationship with them.
Brenda: Well, I wonder too, what's the response been of non-Black players, or white players for the most part. Is there ways that they’ve shown good allyship? Is there a ways to go? How do you feel about that?
Crystal: Yeah, so we actually do have a part of our group that will be allies, they are non-Black members of the group, which we’re excited about that. We have Sam Mewis and Becky Sauerbrunn who have really been leading the path on that. We’re excited, because we understand that this should not be a Black community issue or a white community issue – this should be everyone’s issue and everyone trying to get onboard to help solve these problems. So we completely understand the value in not everyone in the group just being in the group because they’re Black, you know? We understand that these matters should be handled with everybody in the NWSL and we need everyone’s help and support. So we definitely created a space for them and they’re excited about it. We obviously don’t want anyone to ever feel like it’s a forced thing that they should be involved in, you know? I think it’s important that we know going forward…People either wanna get involved and support us or they just don’t, and we have to be okay with that, you know? We have to be okay understanding that the NWSL is a different demographic than the WNBA. We don’t have that representation, we may have people who have polarizing views, and that’s unfortunate, but we also are prepared for that. We don’t wanna create anything that we feel like people are in it for the wrong reasons or they’re forced into it, so we definitely have a process of understanding who’s really here to really be in here for the long haul and not just here for the trend, you know? But we’re excited. We’re gonna create some really creative and important things for women as a whole but also definitely minority women.
Brenda: Yeah, it seems like such an important balance to have the space for Black women, to have the platform and to have the voice and to have the maneuverability within the league vs the players, and also then seems really strategically intelligent to think, let’s also organize the white allies who are interested in that – under our umbrella! [laughter] In our army, but not quite leading the charge, per se. That seems to be a very smart strategy, and one that I don’t think is done that often.
Crystal: No, and I mean, it sounds so bad to say but we’re in a time right now where we really don’t want white women to feel like they have to speak for us or speak out and not allow us to be in the conversation. I think that is really where we’ve been and we’re trying to move away from that, and as minorities we already feel like we are very overwhelmed with the lack of representation. So we feel like even though we’re a smaller group as we’re unified we know we can make a big impact, and that’s what we’re trying to do.
Brenda: Yeah, that seems like a really smart way to move forward. I do wanna ask just a couple more things. 2019 World Cup – obviously congratulations, much ex post facto!
Crystal: Yes! [laughs]
Brenda: It was very very amazing. Then you have the equal pay fight and pretty disappointing exit of Carlos Cordeiro. Where is the equal pay fight now? We’re not hearing so much about it, and of course equal pay and pay gaps are really important intersectionally with Black Lives Matter because so much of Black labor is depreciated. So I wanna ask you about that.
Crystal: Yeah, I mean, honestly I wish I had this huge update for you, [Brenda laughs] but I kind of really don’t. It’s actually been definitely quiet, but I think more so quiet just because of what this year has been like, you know? We’re not saying that the equal pay fight is not important, but we I think also are at a time when COVID is breaking out again and the racial injustices that have been happening has been huge in the forefront, and I feel like this was a time for us to kind of take a step back and just reflect, you know? Even though we are disappointed in the decision that was made we know that we are going to keep fighting and we know that this is not the end. Now it’s been great that the national team has been able to get back because it has been challenging to get on the same page as players if you don’t see them, if you’re only doing Zoom calls and it’s just hard to connect. But I think as the world is now taking a turn – hopefully for the better – those conversations will be sparking up again and we will be moving forward on what’s next. How do we keep these conversations going? Because we will not stop until we have gotten what we rightfully deserve. Obviously being on the national team it’s been incredible because I do feel like we are pioneers, so for us these battles are hard to fight but we know that by doing that we are paving the way for those coming after us but also other national teams, you know? It’s been incredible to see that for us it’s like, yes we’re in our own fight, but it’s really not our own fight. It’s a fight for women everywhere to be recognized and paid what they are deserving of being paid. I’m seeing the effect all across the world and I think that’s what we are hopeful we can continue doing.
Brenda: Yeah, it really feels like a global moment. I mean, Brazil at least coming to equal pay for the days they’re convoked – it’s not exactly equal because they’re convoked far less, but at the same time it's a step forward, and I’m not surprised to see that coming under Pia Sundhage’s coaching tenure. I mean, I feel like there’s connections–
Crystal: Definitely.
Brenda: –to global movements. But the US women have definitely played a really inspiring role, I can tell you, from having worked with the Argentine and Chilean national teams. They are able to parley that example and really push their federations in directions that they might no be able to do otherwise.
Crystal: Definitely.
Brenda: So it is really important for all of those reasons. It’s exciting, and I think we all hope the momentum keeps going.
Crystal: Yes. I think we’re rounding the corner, we’re gonna keep on going. [laughs]
Brenda: I do too! I do too. And I wanna talk about Portland. North Carolina has one particular type of women's soccer community, and it’s got the UNC and it’s got the Duke and it’s got the Courage and there’s great stuff about it. Probably though, rivaling, in terms of the ferocity of their fans, Portland Thorns fans are SO excited to have you. [Crystal laughs] Do you already feel a kind of vibe with the city?
Crystal: Yes. Honestly, I think this year throughout all the chaos has really just allowed me to have even more clarity and just really be able to get introduced to Portland, you know? I think everyone can kind of look at 2020 the same way saying, oh my gosh, I couldn’t go into work anymore, kids are at home, kids are now doing stay at home studies and things like that. But I feel like you get to look at the world in a different way, and I think that’s how I kind of used this year, was really just being in Portland a lot more and being able to just get used to this new surrounding. So it’s been nice to live in my home that we got a year ago. I was like, wow, this is the first time I’m able to spend time here, which is really nice. And like I said, I got to meet my neighbors, just certain things that I feel like were really allowing me to adjust to this potential move that I was making to Portland. Then obviously fast forward, everything worked out and I just think it’s a huge huge soccer city so of course I’m already excited to be a part of that, and just the people…I think there’s something so quirky and cool always about Portland, and I think I've been experiencing that, and everywhere I go I feel like the moment you mention women's soccer there’s this, “Oh, the Thorns! We know the Thorns!” I think that that is just incredible. I wish that was everywhere, you know? I think that’s what makes Portland so unique and so incredible, because people come out and support the women’s side just as much as they come out and support the men’s side. I think that’s what we need everywhere, in all these other industries and markets. We need everyone to realize that women can play this sport, you know? If you just show up and come to the games you will not be disappointed. So I’m excited to definitely play in front of these fans – if we can get fans again! I don’t know when! But the welcoming party has been very nice. I was a little nervous for people to be like, “Wow, you’re leaving the North Carolina Courage! F— you,” or whatever. Just bad stuff, obviously. But it's been pretty nice, and I’m happy about that. [laughs]
Brenda: Me too. There’s definitely things in the women’s game that we would prefer not to replicate about the men’s game, so I’m glad no one’s burning your jerseys over your personal decisions. [laughter]
Crystal: So true!
Brenda: I think there’s definitely a group of practices we can agree on that we can just leave to the men’s side, or maybe they can just start to emulate the women’s game.
Crystal: Yeah, I mean, obviously the men do their whole diving situation that I don’t want that brought into the women’s game. [Brenda laughing] I’m very happy that we are strong women and we play through bloody noses. I mean, Becky Sauerbrunn’s head wrapped with blood in the final…
Brenda: Oh yeah!
Crystal: I’m like, that is the definition of woman soccer player, right there! It’s like, “Trainer, wrap me up! I’m ready to still stay in this game. Don’t call me off of the field.” [laughter]
Brenda: Yeah, okay! So if it’s up to us we’ve already got the ball rolling on this, so that’s great. Well, at Burn It All Down we are absolutely so excited for you at the Portland Thorns and so grateful that you came on the show. Yeah, just best of luck to you in all of these things and congratulations on the Black Women’s Player Collective. It is fantastic and much much needed.
Crystal: Thank you so much, I appreciate it.