Interview: Diaspora United Podcast Hosts Courtney Stith and André Carlisle

In this episode, Lindsay Gibbs is joined by Courtney Stith and André Carlisle, hosts of the Diaspora United Podcast. This interview is all about the NWSL on-the-field action. The talk about Sydney Leroux's magic, which other players are having standout seasons and which teams they think will advance to the playoffs.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello, flamethrowers! Lindsay Gibbs here. Thank you so much for joining us on our interview episode this Thursday. I am absolutely thrilled to be continuing our NWSL conversation, for better or for worse. And joining me today is André Carlisle and Courtney Stith of the Diaspora United podcast. Hi, Courtney and André. 

Courtney: Hello!

André: Hello hello. Thank you for having us.

Lindsay: You know, I want to talk…If y'all, haven't listened to Tuesday’s episode, go back. Jess, Shireen and I, we really ran down all the drama that's been happening, and we're going to get to some of those topics in a bit, but first I want to ask you both...Because the podcast is so great, and it's really filled a void in sports media. And I just feel like you guys, like the whole goal is to center Black women in soccer, in the conversations we know they get left out. How did this come about that? How did you two get together and start the pod? Courtney.

Courtney: Oh, actually I was gonna throw it to André, because he’s the one that sent the first DM.

Lindsay: Ooh, through DMs! Burn It All Down started through DMs, so I love it.

André: There you go. Basically just kind of noticed…And, you know, women’s sports coverage is lacking overall, and certainly at the bottom of that are Black women being celebrated for their accomplishments. Bit of an imbalance here. And I know Crystal Dunn has spoken up recently on a bunch of that. And so it was really with that backdrop that I was like, you know what? I don't know if I'm the right person to do this, but I know this needs to be done. And so I reached out and talked to a couple of people and they were like, yeah, you should definitely go ahead and do that. And I was like, all right, cool. So I was trying to figure out who should be my co-host, and Courtney followed me, and I ended up being like, all right. I had never talked to Courtney before, never had a conversation before–

Lindsay: Wow! Wait. So, what was it about Courtney where you just like, you're a Black woman, do this with me? [laughs] How did you…? 

André: Well, I guess I knew that she covered soccer. I knew she was deep into soccer. And I got some recommendations from a mutual friend, Bria Felicien, who does The Black Sportswoman.

Lindsay: The best.

André: Yeah, she's just like, you know what? Courtney would be perfect for this. And I was like, awesome. I've know of Courtney, but I've never talked to her. So, let's see if the first time we can talk, we can record it and call it a podcast. [laughs]

Lindsay: That's incredible. The Bria recommendation goes far though.

André: Yes.

Lindsay: Courtney, what were your thoughts when you get this random DM? [laughs]

Courtney: Well, the funniest thing was I finally reached out to Bria and I was like, hey, you're a Black woman doing sports things, I kind of want to be a Black woman doing sports things. And we just kind of set up a call and then she was like, oh yeah, follow up and do all these things. And then one day I literally just…It was at the beginning of the year and I was like, Courtney, you spent so much time on TikTok over the holidays. I was like, not going to do any social media for like January, you know? Just like fully cleanse. But I would still, I guess with my Twitter notifications, I still get emails if I get a DM. And so I go and I'm checking my email and I see “DM from André Carlisle…” and I was like, wait, what? [laughter] I log into Twitter and I'm like, what? He was like, do you want to start a podcast about Black women in soccer? And I was like, yeah. I'm pretty sure I honestly responded probably in like 25 minutes, not knowing at all how to do podcasts. Like, my background is I'm a video producer and a writer, [laughs] never thought about any of these things. And I was like, yeah, like, of course! Like, talk about Crystal done all day, every day? What else would I be doing? 

André: Yeah.

Lindsay: That’s incredible. I love that. Well, the podcast is great. Go check it out. Let's dive right into it. It is impossibly hard for Black women in the NWSL and in women's soccer in general, as we discussed. And yet, if you look at the top goal scorers, if you look at the top performers, it's predominantly Black women. So, who in the NWSL – once again, we're not talking national team performances here, we're talking NWSL – who should people really be paying attention to? Because we have listeners who, like me, care about women's sports like women's soccer, but maybe, you know, there's a lot to pay attention to all the time, so maybe haven't been glued to every single NWSL game this summer. We're going to have a whole Syd Leroux section–

André: You knew where we were going. [laughter]

Lindsay: So, if you can say somebody other than her, because I really just want to gush about her for a little while in general. André?

André: So I'll give you a couple of players that I've been really excited to watch. Even though she's been around the national team, Sophia Smith, I think, has really come into her own in that Portland team. She has really taken opportunities, particularly why, you know, during the Olympics, while the Olympians were away, she really stepped up and has been excellent. Just the sophistication of her runs, the timing of her runs. Still can sharpen up the finishing a little bit, but she is an incredible player to watch and a very difficult player to mark. We saw that in the…What was it? The ICC women's tournament, the local preseason tournament they had. And she was just killing Lyon, and Lyon is one of the best club teams in Europe. And they could not control her. She was incredible in that match.

The other one, I'm going to go with Ebony Salmon. Ebony Salmon came over from England, extremely young player, and he didn't really…Like, I knew of her watching her at Bristol, but Bristol was really bad in the WSL, got relegated this past season or the prior season. And, you know, you're thinking it is a bit of a step up in competition, definitely athletically as well. You know, big transition game, obviously, the NWSL versus the WSL in Europe. But Ebony Salmon has taken to it. Like, it's been incredible to watch, and it's been fun because some…There were some doubters, and I have to say that every goal comes with a little extra opportunity to be spicy online because the doubters didn't really know what they were talking about. We knew that Ebony Salmon had skills, it was just a matter of if it was going to translate, and it is translating.

Lindsay: And she's only 20 and she's playing…I love that you mentioned her, because she's playing for Racing Louisville, which is towards the bottom of the standings, so not A) a new team, and B) you know, one that doesn't get a lot of television exposure, but that would be all of them. [laughs] So, that would be everybody. [laughter] I'll admit, I haven't watched a lot of Racing Louisville this summer, so it is good to know about her. Courtney, who's been really exciting for you?

Courtney: Yeah. I think one player is definitely Ifeoma Onumonu of Gotham. Like, genuinely every time she plays…I don't think that honestly besides Syd Leroux – I know we're going to talk about her later – but I've not seen another player who is consistently and always hunting for a goal. Like, there've been so many moments, especially when either Gotham’s been down or have been looking for an equalizer or even a winner, and you just always know she's going to show up and just honestly get the ball in the back of the net. I've seen so many of her goals and she's just honestly always, always hunting for a goal. And so that's been really fun to see, and I can see that in person, which is even more fun.

But then another player is officially gold medalist Nichelle Prince. I think her coming back in the NWSL and playing with Houston, she's been making some really, really good runs off the ball, getting in good crosses. I can't remember off the top of my head, but whoever Houston played last time, she was truly just kind of everywhere. And being a player that you don't want to play against. So, those are definitely two players that I've been looking for. And I've been really wanting Nichelle Prince to really get her shine, because I think she's been putting in the work and doing so much in the background and has just been killing it. And actually also with that, Jasmyne Spencer as well. We talked to her on the podcast, but like, especially during the Olympic break, she was on fire for Houston.

Lindsay: Love that, and love to see some Houston players get some shine as well. Let's talk about Syd. She seems like she scores a goal every single game. Almost like she's shed a lot of dead weight this year or something? I don't know. But… [laughter] I don't want to get into that! But it does seem like there's some freedom to her. How have we seen her develop? Because a lot of people know her from when she was on the national team, right? And then she's had two kids and hasn't been back playing on the national stage and, you know, wasn't that big of a factor on the club level for a couple of years. What is working so well for her this season? And how is she kind of able to find this at this stage in her career?

Courtney: Yeah, I think honestly part of it is she’s, to me, fully back in full fitness after having two kids. Like, I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize it and because Alex Morgan was also pregnant people are starting to maybe realize a little bit more like how much pregnancy does to your body and just the difficulties of fitness. So I think honestly for me that was always a big part of it. Like, she always had, I'll say it, like kind of the rumblings under of like she's going to get back and have a really big breakout season. And I think this year, just getting back into full fitness, and just kind of doing the fundamentals. And she kind of also has that never say die attitude. Like, the last game that she played last night, on the podcast we said she had a trio of gold contributions because she scored for one, assisted another, basically assisted the other goal. She just honestly is always hunting for a goal and…Wait, can I curse?

Lindsay: Of course. Yeah. [laughs]

Courtney: She almost has like a fire lit under her ass of just like wanting to go back. And also I think part of it is knowing, you know, Vlatko and the national team now has been looking a lot more I would say than like in previous cycles at NWSL performances. So I think also having that has really just pushed her, and then kind of doing it for her kids. She said it a few different times, of wanting to be the best professional that she can be on and off the field.

Lindsay: Do we think she has a shot at getting back on the national team? Like, is it as easy as just like, look at how many goals she's scoring? Do you think she can get back in that picture? 

André: She better! [laughter] Honestly. That's my short answer to that. That things didn't go well in the Olympics, they said that they were missing that familiar mentality. Who in the world has that mentality right now that's not on the national team better and in more abundance than Syd Leroux? Like, you can spot her on the pitch, every now and then she'll be on the defensive line, she'll be dropping back, trying to link up play. She'll be, you know, trying to assist Alex Morgan or she'll be getting on the end of goals. She plays the role for them that is basically whatever Orlando needs her to do, she's going to do. And that type of mentality is incredible. It's incredible because the level of fitness is incredible, but just also the technical ability, the awareness, the intelligence to be able to be effective on whatever line she's in, whatever line she's either trying to break or help, strengthen. She's been incredible. So yeah, she better be. [laughter] Just short answer, she better be. 

Courtney: If you say that you're looking at NWSL performances and that is the truth of how you want to go forward and start picking this team, there’s absolutely no reason why Syd Leroux should not be honestly the number one name on the team sheet. I mean, we've made so many jokes, like, I've made jokes that she's played center back, made jokes that she's played outside back…I remember when they played Gotham at home and Syd Leroux was sitting right between the center backs and heading the ball out from the corner. Like, I don't know any other player who will just, like as André was saying, to slot into absolutely any position to put her team in the best position they can going forward.

Lindsay: All right. Well, you heard it here first. Vlatko…You’re listening, so this is good. [laughter] Glad we're all on the same page now. So if we're looking at the NWSL standings right now, of course games are always happening. Things are always changing. But you know, we've got Portland up top, not a surprise. OL Reign, I want to talk about Laura Harvey in a minute. The Courage, which I am going to get to Cary to see a game, that is happening. But the Orlando Pride, a team that’s struggled kind of in recent years…I mean, we all remember what it was – it seems like five years ago, but it was during the Challenge Cup – of course, last year they couldn't come and didn't get to play during that regular season, which we all know was so disappointing for those players. But they've had a midseason coaching change – which, listen to our Tuesday pod, is something that almost all teams have been through this year! [laughs] More midseason coaching changes than not. 

André: Just your customary midseason coaching change in the NWSL. It happens! [laughter]

Lindsay: You're actually like on the outside if you haven't changed head coaches this season in the NWSL, which is one of the more startling statistics I've ever heard. [laughs] I mean, it's the epitome of that everything's on fire, everything's fine meme. But anyways, when I look at this team on social media and I look at their celebrations, it looks like no team is having more fun over the past month than the Orlando Pride, and that they're playing with a certain level of freedom. Am I wrong for looking too much into Instagram here, André?

André: No, you're not wrong at all, I don't think. I think that that's a very accurate observation, because they absolutely…I mean, stuff like that carries over. We know that teams are made of people, and this is kind of how people operate. You know, when you're feeling better, when you're feeling good around the crew that you've been with, you know, and soccer is such a connected game that you all have to be on the same page. So I think they had a couple things. You know, I think they obviously had a long time off, as you mentioned. They missed the 2020 Challenge Cup. They were really ready to play together. You saw that, and you saw how differently they played, honestly, under their old coach Marc Skinner, who wanted to create art and then realized the NWSL isn't going to allow him to do that. You're going to have to actually coach a team the way that the NWSL operates – or perhaps he just wasn't skilled enough to do what he wanted to do. We don’t know. Different discussions.

But when he leaves, you see an additional boost of excitement because Becky Burleigh comes in, you know, one of the few women head coaches in the NWSL. And the comments from players in postgame matches and postgame pressers has been amazing. They talk about how it’s a collaborative approach, how they feel more prepared going into games, you know? They are really big fans of having Becky Burleigh as a coach. And I think that has even elevated the mood there to a different level than it even already was before. So yeah, I don't think you're wrong looking at Instagram and saying, like, this team looks really fun, and they're playing like it. Because there's a lot that can be read there, and I think that it's an accurate thing. 

Lindsay: And they’re the group that's just been there for so many years, right? I mean, you see a lot of…Well, maybe I'm just seeing this because I follow the Spirit so closely over the past few years. [laughs] You see a lot of turnover year to year in teams. But yet you've got the Alex, Ali, Ashlyn and Syd group, who are so close on and off the field, and so dedicated to the team, it's gotta help.

André: Well, also at a similar stage, right? Like, Ashlyn and Ali have a baby, you know, Alex Morgan has a baby, Syd Leroux has a couple of kids as we just talked about. So, they're also able to bond over other things. And of course, those are also big personalities, but they also bring everybody in, you know? As you mentioned, you can check out their social media and you can see how they've had…I think they had a bachelor party some months ago that was amazing, that everybody dressed up for. So like, yeah, they have a lot of fun on that team, and it translates.

Lindsay: And I should have said Marta is there, which should be the first and last…I mean, period, that's a full sentence. [laughs] 

André: You cannot not have a smile on your face when Marta's around, and if you do, you deserve to be in prison. [Lindsay laughs] I don't believe in the prison system, but listen… [laughter] 

Lindsay: The metaphorical prison that works for this works for this joke.

André: There you go. [laughs] 

Courtney: Yeah. I think just adding onto the Pride conversation, I think also since they started the season so strong and were unbeaten in like seven or eight matches, I think that was really kind of their rallying cry for the rest of the season of like, let's prove everyone wrong. And so I feel like that combined with the team camaraderie, and then adding in Becky Burleigh as the new head coach, has just kind of sparked magic there. So it's been one of the more interesting storylines. 

Lindsay: Can I ask you what is going on with the Courage, who at number three in the standings? 

Courtney: Honestly, I think the Courage, for a while we saw them kind of disjointed. Definitely remember during the fall series, [laughs] it was definitely, they had kind of a “no defense, all vibes” mentality. They’re like, we’re just going to outscore you. Losing like out of the players that had injury, or, you know, not having, for example, Sam Mewis and Abby Dahlkemper with their team…And surprisingly, I feel like the core of that team was really, really split up. And so this entire time they've kind of been working their way back. And so, you know, for example, getting Sam back from Manchester City has helped a little bit, but I think also with that, with them splitting up the core and then those timelines and trying to coincide it through not only international breaks but then the Olympics has kind of made it seem like they're not clicking?

But also at the same time, they're third in the standings. I think their loss to Portland today was their first loss in, what, seven or eight matches? So, it's not necessarily the super dominant Courage that we've seen, but also they're very much still in the running and they still have some really bright stars. Like, when Williams, Jess McDonald, but also I think Carson Pickett has had an incredible season. I think she's leading the league with five assists. So, it's an interesting dichotomy, because it's like, they're not at their best, but also [laughs] they're still up there in the standings and doing a lot better than a lot of other teams in the league.

Lindsay: I think often we're used to dominance or freefall, you know? Because once the dominance ends, it can be such a precarious thing, right? [laughs] You know, sports. So like, usually it's like once that stops, all this turmoil, which is why I think it's a little bit confusing that the dominance seems to be over, which makes sense when Crystal Dunn leaves. [laughs] But obviously like, expansions happening, you know, no teams staying together fully anymore. But it's good to see them kind of hanging in there a little bit. Why are the OL Reign finally clicking this year? Winners of, what, four of their last six, if I'm reading the NWSL site/if the NWSL site is correct. [laughter] Two big question marks! That might not be true.

But I've been a big Laura Harvey fan since…It was one of my first reporting at an NWSL game, was when Rapinoe and then the then-Seattle Reign came to the Spirit and Bill Lynch didn’t play the anthem and released that horrible statement. And then after the game, you know, I'll never forget Laura Harvey sitting right next to Megan Rapinoe on those steps while she's answering questions and like affirming her anger and sticking up for her and letting her call Bill Lynch homophobic, do you know what I mean? That solidarity with a player is not something that you see a lot of, especially…2016 was a very different time for that level of athlete activism. So, I know she's got some fans and some detractors, but what do we think about her coming back to the team and seeing the team kind of really find their rhythm?

Courtney: I think for me, part of it is something that we've kind of seen all over, not only the NWSL but just kind of women's soccer in general. It's like, competent coaching! [laughter] Coaches who have a super team…I mean, I think for most of us it would be a massive failure if OL Reign were not in the tip top. I mean, they have Eugénie Le Sommer, Dzsenifer Marozsán, Bouhaddi, Cook, Lavelle, Pinoe… 

Lindsay: They are the Avengers, they are the Avengers, yeah.

Courtney: They just kept signing players are were like, we're going to make a super team! And that's the players that play international soccer, but they also have a ton of up and coming stars, like Tziarra King, Bethany Balcer, like just kind of a super team. And I think the reason why they weren't doing super well in the beginning was just that they weren't being coached properly, and I don't think that their tactics necessarily suited the strengths of their players. And so now, like, oh yeah, Laura Harvey really knows how to coach and knows how to get the best out of her players. It's not surprising to me at all that they're currently sitting at number two in the NWSL standings, especially if you just look at that roster and you're like, oh yeah, if we get them to play together, of course they're going to score like 17 goals on everyone. [laughter]

Lindsay: If we nominally do our job as a coaching staff, they should be fine. [laughs] Yeah. André, anything to add there?

André: Yeah. I mean, I think that's really it, is Laura Harvey kind of came in and put people in the right positions. You know, it doesn't seem like a lot, but I think it was definitely something that was needed, because you do have these really really incredible players, and when you kind of mess them up or have them play in a way that they're not familiar with, or that isn't suitable to their strengths, you make everybody's job a lot more difficult. And I think that's what was going on earlier in the season. So, I also think it's kind of funny when other coaches come over to the NWSL and they want to try and have this very different kind of style without ever looking at the NWSL and saying, okay, how are you effective in this league? You know, what are the top teams doing? What are the teams that are great able to do? You can tweak the style a little bit, but you're not going to completely innovate in the  NWSL because there is already a style that works in the NWSL.

That's not to say that it's always going to be that way, but you're not going to be a brand new coach and be able to change a whole lot, especially in your first season. And I think a lot of coaches, as in  Marc Skinner, as I mentioned before, to read Benstiti, who was the coach of OL Reign earlier, kind of came in and did that. There were some players on the team that weren't playing that should have been playing. There are some players playing in wrong positions. Like, Marozsán was almost like a false nine, which was just not a great idea when you have a nine like Bethany Balcer, you know?

You have players like Eugénie Le Sommer who you want to have on the wings, you know, creating problems. So really, to me, it's Laura Harvey coming in and saying, okay, I got a lot of fantastic pieces and I know where they should play, here we go. [laughs] So, I'm really excited to see how she grows with that team because there was the first task of getting everybody in the right place, in the right position. And now you're starting to see the benefits of that and how they're coming together. Like, Rose has been incredible. Sofia Huerta at right back has been amazing. That has been a really strong move from Laura Harvey. So yeah, I think the Reign are going to get better as the season goes on. 

Courtney: Yeah. And I think with Laura Harvey as well, that since she's already coached and been in this league, she didn't have to come in and try to reinvent the wheel. She was like, I know the easy ways to either quickly break down a team or beat them on the count or something like that. And it's just surprising making those small tweaks that I think has been really integral in leading the team to success. 

Lindsay: I think you see a lot of men with really big egos come in and be like, “I'm going to be the auteur, I'm going to be the change, I'm gonna use this as my stepping stone to prove that I can…” You were saying the art metaphor, so I'm just going with that, like, earlier. You know, create this masterpiece. And then it’s like, no. It's a game – win it! [laughs] Like, win the game! Just do that. All right. I'm going to skip over Portland. They’re at the top of the standings, they’re good. We talked about Sophia Smith. I just want to kind of move us along here a little bit. There's six teams making it to the playoffs this year. For some reason there's still six weeks left in the regular season, which don't understand how much… [laughs] This season I feel like has been very long, but anyways. If we're looking at kind of numbers five through the rest of these teams, #5, we've got the Red Stars with 26 points, and then you got the Spirit, Dash, Gotham, Louisville and Kansas City. If you had to predict which two of those teams are going to make it to the playoffs, who would you pick right now? I'm putting it on the spot. 

André: So, I definitely think the Red Stars belong. They have been very good, like, great in midfield. And in defense, Sarah Gorden has had a fantastic year. Casey Krueger getting back into it has been great. They really have a strong case to be able to limit opposition's chances and then be able to score. They haven't quite figured out the attacks just yet. Mal Pugh has been playing great, and getting herself back on the national team call list is another thing that happened.

Lindsay: Yes!

André: So that's really exciting. And then I think the Spirit are in a free fall, in a number of ways. So I really think it's going to be between Gotham and Houston. I kind of put Gotham up there, but they have to figure out their midfield connection, because they need a little bit more service for those forwards. Ify can score, Ify has shown that she can score any time if you put her on the pitch, if you start her in the right positions and give her service. So, I think Gotham can figure that out. I think the Dash might be a little bit too disjointed to get there. 

Lindsay: I should disclaimer, don't have time to get into a big thing about this player. I know it's your favorite player. Will we see Midge Purce again this season? Or is she out for the season? I just haven’t…

André: Oh no, I believe after the international break. So we should see her. I think that was the timetable that I last heard.

Lindsay: Okay. Because I listened to those stats you read on your podcast, your latest episode. So, I know that that is important! [laughter] Yeah. 

Courtney: Calculating those broke my heart. Sort of like, oh no. I also agree on Chicago. And like, I mean, obviously if Midge comes back, but if Gotham figures out their attack then I think they have a very strong chance of getting into the playoffs. But it is, as André said, definitely that midfield trio. I have scratched my head at several times. But to me, it's also finding a smart way to integrate the players that were out for the Olympics back into the fold, because I mean, we've seen a lot of Carli Lloyd, but we haven't also seen for example Évelyne Viens, and it's just finding ways to bring them back into the fold, because I feel like for a long time Gotham had like that front three of Purce, Monaghan before she got injured, and Ify. And so those three really clicked really well together, and then when for example Monaghan got hurt, they were able to put in Kawasumi and it still worked, but now that it’s only Ify I feel like they just need to do something with those front runners to make them start scoring goals again. 

Lindsay: Makes sense. All right. I'm going to end on not a happy note, but I feel like we just kind of have to. [laughs] So, after we recorded the episode on Tuesday, more news is coming out of the Washington Spirit, and I'm sure by the time this airs the free-fall will continue. It was the first forfeit in NWSL history, I believe, when apparently they're still not following COVID protocols and so they forfeited the game against the OL Reign. It's a disaster. You two had the same reaction I did to the Ben Olsen interview with The Athletic. It was very weird how you're kind of bragging about how you've never thought about having this job and how you didn't even think it was intriguing until you were offered it and how you're about how unprepared you are. Like, that's weird! [laughs] That’s a weird thing to brag about.

But mainly, you know, I listened to Kaiya McCullough's podcast, which everyone should listen to. It's in the show notes. And it's just very, very clear how it seems like a microcosm, and honestly I hope it's worse at the Spirit than it is throughout the NWSL, but I'm sure it's not an alone situation of just like how isolated she felt as a Black player, and as a Black player who's speaking up and really using her voice and everything. So I guess, like, what would you like to see the Spirit do? And then, you know, if you want to take this to league as a whole. But to like, I don't know, support their players? And particularly Black players. Is there any way to kind of repair the damage that's been done?

Courtney: I think honestly…And I was kind of thinking about this when I was just walking down the street this morning, listening to a podcast. Like, even just doing the bare minimum of acknowledging that a lot of terrible things have happened, and that not only from the Spirit organization but also from the league as a whole. Like, just “sorry.” I know that is such a simplistic answer, but I also feel like there's so much that has gone on in this league for, what, since the beginning of 2020? And like just all of the mess, even just having that first step of like, hey, we did something wrong, we’re sorry about it, and here are the ways we're going to fix it. And then I think the thing that they really need to focus on are how are we actually going to fix this? Like, hey, I know it's going to be like a crazy idea: don’t hire coaches that have abuse allegations against them in the past, that have been…I mean, I know for example with Richie Burke, that has been documented over the past few years through different reporting and things like that.

So that's something, and then, I mean, they have to shake up that leadership board. They need specifically Black and brown people in the room telling the league honestly about all the ways that they can make it better, and not having people who just kind of all come from the same brain trust of, well, here's how the NFL does it, let’s do it this way. And it's like, no! Women's soccer in this country is very different than the NWSL, and your user bases and things like that are all different. So I feel like for me it's literally just doing the basics. I think it'd be different if throughout all of this happening that people were taking accountability for their actions and trying to do things better. But to me, it just feels like no one has learned from a single mistake. 

Lindsay: Yeah. It's like, oh, well, that statement is surface and we'll need to see action, but when you can't even do the surface, right? You know, I don't want to act like words and everything and symbols are the be all end all. They're certainly, certainly the bare minimum, but god, how rotten do you have to be to not even realize you need to do that, you know? It's just a lot. André?

André: Yeah. To me, this ownership group, who has been the controlling ownership group for years at the Spirit, just need to go. They've had plenty of opportunities to do things that aren't the worst thing, and they like to choose the worst option. It's like–

Lindsay: Every time! [laughs]

André: Yeah, every single time. It's like, if you have paths in front of you, and you have “good” and “ehhh” and then “the worst,” they're always going to choose the worst, and they always have. And if you're going to continue to do the same things, then you just don't give anybody any level of trust that you're going to make decisions that are in the best interests of your players. And if you can't do that as the front office of an organization, you can't be the front office of an organization, in my opinion.

Lindsay: I hope that there's a lot of change, and I hope it comes quickly. You’re DMV based, I lived there for a while. I got to know a lot of those fans, and there's some good people there that deserve better, deserve a whole lot better.

André: There really are. And they're really frustrated. They're really disconnected from the club right now and really angry at the club. And to Courtney's point, the club hasn't said anything. Hasn’t said anything to their supporters groups, hasn't said anything obviously publicly. They’re just acting like none of this is even worth them commenting on. And it's a really, really bad look. And then, you know, then you add on top of that the COVID stuff and the ownership struggle back and forth. Members of the current ownership group or the controlling ownership group putting out harassment suits against one of the other owners – which, if you look into that and what's going on there, you're thinking, okay, that seems like retaliation more than actually something that's credible, but who knows what's going on there. So, it's just a hot mess. You're losing games now because of the COVID thing. It’s just a mess, just a straight up mess. 

Lindsay: You know, your defense partnership isn't even getting the airtime now– 

André: Right! [laughs]

Lindsay: –because you can't even get on the field! [laughs]

André: It's so bad! You just want them to…It’s like, there are so many gripes that you can't even get to that one! And that one's a big one. [laughs] That's a really big one. 

Lindsay: It’s a really big…Like, all capitalism is problematic, but do you have to put the most problematic one on the front of your jersey?

André: And then it was military appreciation night where they honored the general who had a lot to do with the warrantless domestic surveillance when he was director of the NSA, and it's just like, we can't even get to that stuff because you guys are messing up everything else! [Lindsay laughs] It’s like, I guess it's Trumpian in that way, where it’s just a deluge of trash and then people can have a hard time sorting through it all and talking about it all. That's really what it feels like.

Lindsay: Right now – and this is a really big thing for me to say – they are the worst pro sports owners in the DMV area. And that's a list that has the name Dan Snyder on it. 

André: Yeah.
Lindsay: So, that's how bad we've gotten. [laughs] Like, I never thought I'd see the day. All right. Well, André, you also have another new project to plug!

Courtney: Gonna continue stanning you.

Lindsay: Tell us about that! And then Courtney, if you have any projects to plug, please do. 

André: Oh, I appreciate it. Yes, I'm part of the new co-hosting group Chelsea Mic'd Up, which is an official Chelsea FC podcast that follows the Chelsea men's club, but also the women’s club, which has been something that I'm really passionate about and I'm going to force them to talk about nonstop. So, we'll see how much they cut out of my rambling. [laughs]

Lindsay: I like to say, in women's sports, part of it is starting our own things, right? Like, doing stuff that's dedicated to women's sports. But then we got to get our moles on the inside of the places that talk about men's sports a lot to beat that drum over there. Like, when I see Monica McNutt on ESPN I'm like, you're our mole! [laughter] You're our mole on Around the Horn or whatever it is. You got this! [laughs]

André: Yes. You gotta spread the propaganda quickly. [laughs] That's been my thing. Like, oh, it's happening. Don't you worry. We're making sure it's going to happen. So yeah, I'm really excited about it.

Lindsay: Courtney, anything you need to plug?

Courtney: Honestly, no. [laughs] I don’t. Just listen to the podcast! 

Lindsay: I'm going to plug her Twitter, @CourtneyStith, and then André’s is…Let me get it up here. It is confusingly @not_carlisle. Thank you both so much for being on Burn It All Down. Way overdue, and we will certainly have you again.

André: Absolutely, thank you so much.

Courtney: Thank you.