Interview: Fadumo Olow, Women's Telegraph Journalist on Super League Mayhem
This episode is all about the latest mayhem in European football. First, Shireen and Brenda discuss the everchanging hot scoop on the proposed Super League "debauc-ery" (that's debauchery + debacle). This update is followed by Shireen's interview with Fadumo Olow, women's sport journalist for the Telegraph in London. They go in-depth on Super League mess and the ways the women's clubs could be impacted.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hey flamethrowers, Shireen here. We're going to be a little unconventional and do things the backwards way. I've got Brenda Elsey with me here. Hey, Bren!
Brenda: Hey!
Shireen: So happy to talk to you about the most volatile 72 hours football has seen in a while – men’s football, that is. Flame throwers, I interviewed British soccer journalist Fadumo Olow of The Women's Telegraph in London on Tuesday, and within a couple hours of our interview, the proposed European Super League of men's football fell apart completely. It started to dismantle, rather. So what Brenda and I are going to do right now is give you a little bit of an update. And then we'll keep the interview with Fadumo, amazing journalist, as is. So, Brenda, can you tell us about this complete “debaucery” of everything we know and how it fell apart? And we stood on the sidelines eating popcorn and laughing!
Brenda: I feel like “debaucery,” which is a mix that you've made up, I believe, Shireen, between debauchery and debacle, [Shireen laughing] is the perfect way to describe this. The Super League has generated an entirely new vocabulary about how misguided the elite men at the top of global football organized this sport that so many people love and with such a lack of consideration for the clubs and the supporters who make football what it is. And of course, the athletes that make it what it is.
Shireen: And the women's game.
Brenda: The women's game unfortunately is almost always collateral damage of this “debaucery.” And this is no different. So, what we have is a $5 billion investment made by JP Chase Morgan because of an unidentified set of people, still. It's not clear – probably the idea for this, which came from some floundering club presidents who wanted to get more of the share of the Champions League pie, and a sponsor who we don't know, probably a major US sponsor and maybe Rupert Murdoch and maybe…You know, there's all kinds of questions about who might have been involved in trying to bankroll this and pose this threat to UEFA which is such a giant part of FIFA money that it involves FIFA as well.
And so initially there were 12 teams. It came as a complete shock. It never looked serious from the beginning. My suspicion is that they wanted concessions, that no one thought this was actually going to be a thing. It violates every labor law in every country in Europe, basically. [laughter]
Shireen: Just so everybody knows – and I did mention this in the interview you'll hear with Fadumo – Jordan Henderson, captain of Liverpool, actually assembled all the captains of the teams around. So, you had like the Avengers coming out there to say we're not going to handle this. Because essentially this type of, like, absolutely rigid and horrific capitalism is like Thanos.
Brenda: It didn't look though like it was as serious as it was disruptive to be disruptive, and I think to maybe get some concessions. So, we had 12 teams. We're now down to three. So, that would be an amazing…We’d have a Clásico plus Juve championship. [laughs]
Shireen: Just so everybody knows, the six clubs were from England: Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Tottenham. Spanish clubs were: Atlético Madrid, Barcelona, Real Madrid; and the Italian clubs were AC Milan, Inter Milan, and Juventus. And as Brendan just mentioned, the El Clásico is the traditional rivalry between Real Madrid and Barcelona. So they're literally the only two Spanish clubs left with Juventus, who are relentless in their stupidity – is that what we can say?
Brenda: Unless they they're getting something out of it, which they may just shake them scared a little bit with this. But yeah, there's those 12 clubs. Hats off to the supporters and the protesters and the feminist criticisms of this, because those together I think made it come down a lot quicker than it might have otherwise. So, I don't want to look at it as a foregone conclusion because money gets what money gets, right? But Arsenal, I believe, is the only club that apologized for just being so damn stupid. [laughter] I mean, immediately FIFA plays the biggest card, which is if this happens, none of the players will be eligible for the World Cup.
Shireen: Yup. And UEFA came out hard, and you'll hear about this in my interview with Fadumo which follows this conversation with Bren, how it was shocking. It was offensive. And the supporters, the fans around the world, rallied digitally. You had protests outside – small protests, I know, outside Anfield: there was like one lone man with a sign. But you know what? Kudos to that man for standing up there and being like, “I don't want to take this.” And I mean, I think one of the really interesting things here, and this is what I love talking to Brenda about: there was no clubs from Germany. There was no clubs that are held in a cooperative, you know, collective ownership model. It was all these conglomerates, like the Coca-Cola's, the Walmarts, the Amazons of football.
Brenda: Yeah. And you saw, I mean, I thought it was really powerful when Marcelo Bielsa, the most genius coach living today, [Shireen laughs] came out and of course he coaches leads and is saying like, hey, the sweetheart story of last year about the ability for a weak team to develop and to get to play with these powerful teams is one of the last reasons that people are willing to stomach professional football. He made this really sad statement and he said, you know, unfortunately the idea that dominates the world – and football does not operate outside of it – is that the rich will be getting richer at the cost of the poor and the weaker and the less powerful, and that's what it is. And I hope he slept a little better watching the fans saying like, yes, we know, Marcelo! Yes, we're here. We understand that.
So, the ascension and relegation is incredibly important. And so the fact that you would Americanize this model, like the US sports teams that don't go up and down, you know, MLS, like you just buy into the Ponzi scheme and then your team is always in it. [Shireen laughs] And that's like the last thing left, I mean…I was actually on a conversation with our co-host Jessica Luther before the teams pulled out from England. I said to her, “Look at Gabriel Jesus from Brazil – 24 years old, Man City. You think he's going to miss a World Cup to play in this farce?” You can think players just go for money and you can continue to cast them as greedy, but I don't think that's true. I think they care tremendously about that tournament and representing their nation, and I think the shadowy figures that we don't see that wield a lot of power is those players’ agents and CONMEBOL, which probably immediately said we will not go to the World Cup without our team.
And so then you've got Qataris versus Qataris, right? The Qataris that want the World Cup to happen, and the Qataris that that do have an investment in some of these clubs, saying like, whoa, wait a minute – because the World Cup would be compromised without those players, and CONMEBOL would've pulled out.
Shireen: Yeah. And I think what's really interesting is those that heard our episode on Tuesday, we talked about stadiums and we talked about Qatari money, and what's really interesting about this whole gong show of a football thing is that the European club association had the chairman who was initially Andrea Agnelli, who was also chairman of Juventus, and he was replaced by Paris Saint-Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi, who's also Qatari and no doubt has links to the royal family in Qatar. So it's almost like it's this weird, you know, not just that Burn It All Down knows how to cover this stuff, but that it's related. And when you get into upper echelons of football and money and corruption and schemes, this is all related.
Like, don't get me wrong. I'm still going for PSG on all fronts. [Brenda laughs] However, that's aside. We can have a problematic, super problematic faves, but I'm just saying. This, Brenda, this is deeply embedded. But did this make little Marxist Brenda feel happy? Did the result of this make you…Like, this whole Super League dismantled and crumbled – and I tweeted this – like a second class stadium, like where they make their woman play?
Brenda: It made this Marxist feminist very happy. I was very worried for the women's teams. I know we all were. They’ve made tremendous progress. To say that you're going to have a Champions League and pull these women out of competition with Lyon, with Wolfsburg, you know, is a slap in the face to everything they've done. And then just to say, oh, well, you don't really have to come with us – that’s almost worse. I don't even know what they could have done to make this palatable for the women's sides. So I'm really happy about how quickly a lot of the women writers got on this.
I will say there was a little bit of notable silence from some of the main outlets who have let's say standard male writers on this beat, who should have, I think, considered that when they wrote it themselves, because that was people's first breath of this story. But yeah, I absolutely love seeing this crumble, and I love to see the cloak torn off because of course the people defending this, you know, UEFA, and their sort of weepy, “Don’t, you can't, you'll ruin football with your money!” is just laughable. So, the fact that everybody here and their greed was just revealed and then it didn't win, like for once, was great.
Shireen: I feel like that is a win in itself, and that all the grassroots…Because I mean, one of the things was that this shows you about the world's game, the people's game and the global game, and it made me really excited to say the least. But you know, at the end of my conversation, and this is a bit of…It’s not really a spoiler because we already know what happens, is I asked Fadumo what the best possible outcome could be. Brenda, do you think this is the best possible outcome?
Brenda: I do. I guess the only thing that I wish is that there was better reporting on it, that people jumped on the clickbait and went so far ahead of what it would look like that they didn't really stop. I feel like it really was the grassroots people that were out there saying, hey, this is what matters, you know? And so I guess there was a way in which it was so sensationalized that I was somewhat disappointed that it didn't feel like the victory it should have been, or could have been. Like, I didn't think this was going to happen. I was texting you Monday morning and I was like, this is ridic. This is a farce. This is a farce and it needs to be called out as such. And like, instead I felt like there was all these writers that were just like into the dystopia, that were so nostalgic.
And look, at the end of the day, what exists sucks too. So, this is the best possible outcome because people showed both sides. There were people that were like, hey, we're not crying any crocodile tears for the people right now that are the “debaucery” of global football, but what they're doing is even worse. So, I did love that we got to that place. I just wish sometimes that the reporting wasn't so sensationalized around this men versus men in this place and like cloaks and daggers and, you know.
Shireen: I mean, I have to tell you, I thoroughly enjoyed this ride.
Brenda: Yes. [laughs]
Shireen: I thought it was fantastic. I thought the grassroots, the WhatsApp groups of football writers, had a lot of fun. Shoutout to Disrupters FC, because that was a good time. As always, Brenny Bren Bren, I love these conversations with you. I actually never thought we would sit here one day mocking the mismanagement and the collapse of ideas of rich, stale, old white men. [Brenda laughs] But I enjoy this place. I am enjoying it here. I like it here.
Brenda: I feel like we need merch, Super League merch, [Shireen laughs] you know, for Burn It All Down, of something that’s like the “debaucery” of global football. It's like, "Where's my Super League,” you know?
Shireen: Because it's floundering, like, running for the hills, all the chairmen. And just so everybody knows, the chairman of Manchester United also resigned as well as Agnelli of Juventus. So, just want to let people know. And again, Brenda and I are recording on Wednesday night and it's possible that tomorrow something else will happen. And if so,
we will update the show notes. So you've got this conversation, then the one following this, which was with Fadumo, which was recorded Tuesday. So, flamethrowers, we will try to keep you as updated as best we can, and just watching the ongoing “debaucery.”
Brenda: The mockery of the debaucery! [laughs]
Shireen: So that's a word, debaucery. [laughter]
Hello, flamethrowers. This is Shireen, and I am so so excited and have so many questions for our next guest: one of my favorite people in the entire universe, Fadumo Olow, is social media manager and journalist extraordinaire at The Women's Telegraph in London, UK, and she, flamethrowers, will be explaining all the Super League nonsense shenanigan chatter to us today. Hello, my friend.
Fadumo: Hi, how are you?
Shireen: I'm good. How are you?
Fadumo: I'm good. It's been like a crazy couple of days. You know, like, it's that feeling, you know, like when you're in Ramadan and you get to like day six or seven and you don't know what day it is? I feel like at that level with the Super League, like, I'm not quite sure how many days we've been talking about this now. [Shireen laughs] This is a lot, but I’m good.
Shireen: But I feel like we know way more about Ramadan than we know about the Super League.
Fadumo: That is true. We know a lot more about Ramadan than about the Super League, but yeah, no, that's my current standing. So, I guess like just getting straight into it. It's a bit mad, I don't really know how to describe it. It's just an absolute madness. The proposed European Super League is going to have six Premier League clubs. It's quoted as “the big six” and I think the first question is how do you define the big six? Because if you look at the current table, none of the quote “big six” currently stand in the top six of the tables.
So that's like the first argument, and I think the one that's a bit closer to home here for us at Telegraph Women's Sports is what does it mean for women's football? It's one of those things that when you see people talk about women's football, sometimes you feel like it's just like that was like a PR line that was thrown in because it was just one sentence. Our whole statement that said, you know, women's football, we’ll deal with it when the time comes. It wasn't quite those words, but something along those lines. So yeah, no, just all a bit mad, really.
Shireen: So it's specifically said: “as soon as practicable after the start, the Benz competition, a corresponding women's league, will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women's game.” That is the quote. And I'm pulling this from Suzy Wrack’s piece. And the thing is is that I had so many questions about this and obviously as someone who pays attention to football generally…And by the way, I don't necessarily feel attacked by your comment of the big six in the table, as an Arsenal fan myself, but that's fine! Which is one of the teams–
Fadumo: To be fair, I personally call it a big four plus Arsenal and Tottenham, but you know–
Shireen: Ohhhh! Oh, okay. So just for everybody to know, Miss Olow is actually a Man U supporter. I don't know why. I don't know why. We all love Marcus Rashford, but that's not enough. Anyways. I think that, wow, the top four, plus Arsenal and Tottenham. So, it's been a really, really hectic week this week. It's been chaotic. As well as José Mourinho getting sacked from Tottenham, he and the coaching staff are gone. So, about the Super League, and actually I think that Mourinho getting fired didn't get the attention it normally would have because of all the Super League crap.
Fadumo: Oh, 100%. That's why it was like thrown in, in the middle of a curve ball.
Shireen: Right. So, the Super League has proposed 12 teams and they're from Germany, Spain and England, correct?
Fadumo: Yeah. So it just got Real Madrid. Florentino Perez is the Real Madrid president and he's the first person that spoke out about the Super League.
Shireen: Right. So there's no teams from France as we know of yet?
Fadumo: As of yet. Yeah. That could change.
Shireen: Okay. So how is this going to affect the Champs League? Because I really want to see PSG go forward in the Champs League, but may they not have anyone to play? Because as a result of the proposed Super League, UEFA has come out against it and said they will, you know, throw fines or use whatever laws applicable. So basically a lot of men made a bad decision, all these other men are reacting angrily to those bad decisions that will unequivocally affect women. Am I right on this? Or am I wrong?
Fadumo: What I find completely ironic about this whole situation, more than anything – and I think it shows the position that women's football fans are constantly in – it’s like, we're so used to people constantly are making football difficult for us, this is just like the norm, you know?
So, you're seeing people supporting men's football who are coming out with like, oh my god, how dare they put business first? You know, “It's about culture, it’s about football, it's about growing the game,” et cetera, et cetera. And it's like, you know, when we say there's arguments for women's sports, somehow they're not valid. So it's interesting to see people take those arguments – and we frequently use them in women's football and use them for the purpose against a European Super League. But taking a back seat I guess logistically, it is going to be a bit of a logistical nightmare in the sense that, you know, all these teams have been invited. They'd been invited on a 23 year contract or plan. That’s proposed and set up for it.
There is no qualification to it, unlike the Champions League and the Europa League where you qualify, and each season you have a different group of people in those, depending on how well they're doing. This is just a guaranteed tournament for the foreseeable future for these teams, which really is going to affect the Premier League as one, but Europa League and the Champions League, because you're going to have those massive feeder clubs, which do again, drive a lot of money into these leagues, who in theory can be in 20th position in their countries, you know, their national league, but they're still playing amongst the best in this elite club that they have.
So it is a really, really weird way to do, and to also invite people, invite specific clubs to it based on financial gain and financial growth rather than actual like, you know, credibility of how they performed in the last couple of years. Leicester City is one example of a club that should definitely have been in that mix but isn’t. It's not obviously nearly as big as Manchester United and Arsenal, but that doesn't mean it's any less worthy of being in an elite league like that if it is promoting eliteness based on performance,
Shireen: So, how were the invitations issued? Were they just based on a financial model of those clubs? Like, I'm wondering there's some teams…You know, that song, One of these things does doesn't make sense from Sesame Street? [Fadumo laughs] Is this really triggered by money? That's my first question.
Fadumo: I think, you know, the COVID pandemic obviously affected sports in a lot of ways and something like men’s football, which I think very much lives on the fence, you know – it's never quite got enough money and it's very quickly able to lose a lot of money if in case something like a global pandemic does happen, which affected sport as a collective. But I think that was probably the driving force behind that. I know there was rumors about it over the last couple of years and, Arsène Wenger said in a very famous interview over 10 years ago, that this is going to be the future of football. And the comparison that people are giving is it’s treating football like a franchise, it's moving away from the tradition of it being community, of it being based on bringing people together and having it as like an Americanized franchise and ownership.
So, it is a bit of a crazy process. And I guess from a women's footballing perspective, it just shows you the lack of knowledge that sometimes people might have around women's football or sometimes how women's football can be an afterthought in a lot of these cases. So the example is that, you know, by just putting in that one line saying, “we'll think about the plans for women's football in the near future” – there's no clarity on whether the women or the women's football team are going to be exactly the same as the men's ones which on that, because if that's the case then Liverpool who are currently in the championships will be in that, but not Lyon and Wolfsburg who've collectively won the Champions League over the last 10 years.
So, it sometimes just shows the disparities that exist within sports and more so women's football and how there is so much to go. And also, the argument that this isn't the time to do it because of, you know, trying to see how it's going to grow in the near future – it’s not really a good argument because essentially you'd want to start something, and women's football is at its peak as it is so far. And the women's Champions League has shown how much they're trying to grow that. And they've really tried to grow that as much as they possibly can. So to have something else in the midst of that, it's a bit crazy.
Shireen: Like, I think I'll always feel like women are going to have to come up with solutions to deal with the problems that men create in football. We see it again and again, like right now in the women's Champs League, Paris Saint-Germain just ousted Olympique Lyonnais who were like one of the top winners of this. We see the growth, we see how competitive these clubs are. We saw Chelsea who two years ago were relative nothings now to be like one of the top teams in the women's league. We see this growth in this movement and this upward mobility, and then we see all these men in power, these brokers come essentially with…And I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I just think it bears repeating that they're throwing wrenches into that movement.
Do you think there's a solution for this? Like, should women just govern women's football? It's not possible with clubs to break away necessarily, but is there a way to do that? Because like, if Liverpool gets swept up into this – and by the way, a Liverpool captain actually called a meeting with the other captains of the clubs. There was like this Avengers model coming. I don't know what's going to happen with it, but most certainly there's alarm. But I do want to take us back for a second to think about that. Is there a way that we could potentially govern…Is there a way, like a good model, to govern, that we can go with if this does go forward? And if the clubs themselves go forward and the women's sides don't want to go, do the women have a choice or do they have to go?
Fadumo: I think it takes it to…I don't even remember when Manchester City and Chelsea had these kind of financial restrictions put in place, and then when Manchester City couldn't play in the in the Champions League because of things that had gone on in the club, and there was a lot of talk about whether these implications that the men's club had done would affect the women's team, and essentially they didn't because the registration process is completely different. You know, Manchester City’s women's team is the women's team and the men's team is the men's team. So on that basis alone you hope it would be completely the same across into the Super League, but I think yeah, when you said that women have to find the solutions for problems they never created, the example is the fact that a lot of the women who spoke out about this…
So, you know, a lot of clubs spoke to my colleague, Tom Garry at Telegraph Women’s Sports, who said they were blindsided, you know? They didn't know about this. So to hear about the fact that they're being proposed a league or thrown into a league that essentially no one really asked for, it's outrageous and it's wild. But you would also hope that it is something that they don't get dragged into because the growth of women's football has been exponential and has been great. The Champions League more than anything, the fact that, you know, Lyon no longer going into the final, it couldn't be a better year for women's football, and the last thing you want wanted to do is for someone else to take the reigns that has never been theirs in the first place.
Shireen: One of the things that doesn't surprise me is the women most certainly didn't know if you know, Mikel Arteta, the manager of Arsenal didn't know, like, arguably the day before this news was released. He was asked at a presser and he had no idea what they were talking about. So, it doesn't surprise me that women's players and those in the women's side didn't know anything. I do want to bring it back to something you mentioned in your earlier response about community. How are the fans reacting to this? How are fans responding to the news of a potential Super League? Other than random American sportswriters, soccer writers that seem to be authorities on everything European football now.
Fadumo: They’re like, it’s amazing! It’s the NBA, NFL. [Shireen laughs] No, I think when a lot of supporter groups have come out and given statements and, you know, saying they're not in support of the European Super League and some of have us going as far as saying we want our banners to be removed from the grounds of our clubs. So, I think supported clubs have very much spoken out about it and said that they are firmly against the formation of this league. And I think that really shows you the nature of what football fans are about. It's not about…Of course, in some ways you can understand why football fans aren't business minded, and in this moment you're seeing how they're not business minded and it's more about football than it is the money side from the club.
Because, yeah, I'm sure this league will have amazing financial gains for the clubs and will put them in ridiculous positions, but ultimately it will kill football on a grassroots level. Very small clubs will not be able to compete with the likes of the big six or anyone in the top half of the league. And already that is a divide that's already been widened as the years have gone on. Suddenly it’s just going to get a lot further and a lot bigger. But formal supporters groups have been very much against it, you know, they asked for their banners to be removed from grounds. There's a petition that's been signed with over a hundred thousand signatures calling for the PM to speak about it. Now I think it's past the threshold of as to where the PM has to address it. So the prime minister has to take that into the House of Lords and speak on it.
Shireen: So I feel like Boris Johnson getting a word in, like, I want to hear from him as much as I want to hear from Piers Morgan, which is nothing. However, I did hear Prince William issued a statement on this. And I mean, I don't know what level of regard folks have for his commentary, but he seems to be aware of what the culture…And that's what I find interesting, if grassroots level supporters have the same opinion as the Prince?
Fadumo: Yeah. I think I read a really interesting line that said, you know, the businessmen who run these clubs don't like the uncertainty of what football brings. Football gives you that underdog which you might win out of the blue, do you know what I mean? Like, Leicester City won a whole season where no one thought they were going to win. They thought they were going to relegate, and then they went to win. That's probably every businessman's worst nightmare because that's such uncertainty you have, but it's equally what football fans love about the sport and what we love is the fact that anyone can win and sometimes Liverpool will lose to Aston Villa by like 6-1, you know, and these things happen.
I guess why Prince William spoke about it is he is a massive Aston Villa fan. [Shireen laughs] And again, it is just one example of where you have those scorelines which will shock you out of the blue and it will really be like, wow, this is what football is about. Unfortunately, people feel like they're going to lose those wild moments if you do have a league which is just for the elite by the elite.
Shireen: But that's what football is. It's the passion like that…Ohhh, Leicester winning that season was like Ranieri was everyone's dream. He was the manager at the time, Claudio Ranieri. And Jamie Vardy, however, we may feel about Vardy and the family right now, I mean, Riyad Mahrez, like that whole season was the Cinderella story that we couldn’t…That even if you're not a Leicester fan – which I'm not, but I was bandwagoning for sure, because that season was so much fun! So, it's going to take that away. And even Mesut Özil had tweeted about it yesterday saying that fans don't want to see the big games matches every day, every once in a while, which is why the Champs League is so much fun, because it's arguably the best teams from the entire continent that are competing against each other. Sometimes we want those boring little derbies. Sometimes we want – you know, which are not boring for the local fans.
I think that's why this is so frustrating. We also heard from Nadine Kessler who's also the head of women's football at UEFA; Ada Hegerberg also tweeted about how problematic she thinks it is for the women's game. Do you think women's voices will…And this may be a rhetorical question – do you think women's voices, who are in positions of executive or management at all, will be heard in this?
Fadumo: I hope so. I think for a long time women’s football has been treated as parallel to men's football and has been given the same treatment. The example is the fact that, you know, at the minute there's the Arsenal and Tottenham derby, of course the North London derby is a huge deal in men's football. You'll try and give that the same attention in women's football, but also not acknowledging that it's a very, very newly formed relationship, you know? It doesn’t carry the same excitement of seeing Arsenal versus Chelsea, which is our two clubs that have been in the WSL for a very long time. So you need that specialist knowledge and you need that experience of the league.
So, you hope that people do consider the opinions of people who work in the league or work in the field to make the right decisions around the formation of any form of league. But I think to do it as a by-product of what's already out there, I don't think that's the way to go. And I think that's ultimately going to be really detrimental to all the work that has been done in women's football so far and what should be done going forward.
Shireen: Just so you know, us at Burn It All Down a couple of months ago, we had a watch party for the Manchester derby, the women’s. and it was so much fun. Like, Amira on the show, our beloved co-host, is also a Manchester United fan – ironically, probably just because of Marcus Rashford! There's no other reason. [Fadumo laughs] And I'm going to go for Man City because Nadia Nadim played there and I like Man City and Janine Beckie of Canada plays there. So, we kind of had a little rivalry, and just low key I like to oppose whatever team Amira's supporting.
So, there’s so much of that. Jordan Henderson, who is the captain of Liverpool, did call for a meeting of all the captains of the major clubs. What could come of that? Is there anything that could come of that? Do these footballers have any rights in this? They're contractually obligated to their teams. Are they just owned by the teams and have to go where the clubs say, or do you actually think this could be a turning point of labor solidarity of these players?
Fadumo: I don't think you could ever fault any the movement that's ever started at the hands of people that don't necessarily always have the power to do something about it. I think it reminds me of, you know, the fact that the Players Together movement started, or the fact that Premier League players wanted to do something in support of NHS staff and to aid the work that's being done around the pandemic, and that wasn't something that their clubs…Or they felt maybe their clubs were doing, so they all grouped together and started to do work based on that. And that obviously got massive attractions. The same way, you know, of the Black Lives Matter movement, players have been very vocal about the race and the experience on a weekly basis, which is absolutely horrific.
But it does take that one or two people to come out and say what they want to say in hopes of encouraging other people to come out and do that. So, it's great to see that Henderson has got that leadership and that Premier League captains are coming together to talk about it. Whether something will come from it, of course we'll just have to wait and see. But I think having seen what the last year has been about and how movements have started from just a group of small people gathering together as a collective and has made a massive change, you never know. I don't know if it's going to shake the houses that hold these Premier League owners, but it might just rattle the cage a little bit.
Shireen: Do you think we could see like anarchy and football? I know Brenda would love that, but do you think that's possible? Can we expect anarchy in this space?
Fadumo: I don’t know. I don’t think we could expect that just yet. I think football is very much…Or even English football is very much like, you know, upper tight lip, closed lip about it all. But it'll be interesting to see.
Shireen: I think this is all really interesting. So, we’re recording this on Tuesday and the news just came out yesterday. Do you expect any other major news to come out? Because how long did the teams have for their invitation to reply? I remember reading that they have a specific time limit in which they can respond.
Fadumo: I'm not entirely sure of that. I haven't seen that, but I do know that the reaction that players and clubs who aren't involved in the big six have made on social media and statements that they've put out saying that, you know, football is for the fans and it's about relegations, it’s about promotions. Those have been very strong and they've been growing in numbers. So again, like all of the football news, it’s quite hard to keep up with on a daily basis. It changes by the hour in terms of, you know, who were the clubs that were invited to it, who were the clubs who weren't invited to it, you know, Borussia Dortmund aren't involved – again, arguably one of the best clubs in Europe. Why aren't they involved? Their ownership is very different to that which is of course traditionally in the big six.
Shireen: So Dortmund is actually, for those that don't know, is a community membership owned model. It's not like an “owner,” so that's a bit different. So Dortmund isn't invited into this either. It makes me wonder, like you mentioned, the businessmen don't like the model of the way soccer currently exists, but can’t we just be like, get your hands off it! Leave it alone. It's fine as is.
Fadumo: Yeah. I think this is the result of…And it's not an overnight thing. I think it's definitely the result of years of…Manchester United owners didn't show up yesterday, they didn't show up yesterday and take charge of the club. It's been a very lengthy process and it's one that people have turned a blind eye to for a very long time. So I think it's just erupted at this point and now people are going, oh my god, this could affect the rest of the league and this could affect everyone else. Because you know, business owners who are seeing it as, again, rightfully a business, are not necessarily seeing it as the sports that it is and that people and the player see it as well. So, it's a bit of an interesting dynamic
Shireen: In your expertise, what do you think could be the best possible outcome for this? Putting aside your Man U support. What do you think would be the best thing for the fans here?
Fadumo: I think there was Perez who's a Real Madrid president who was also the president of the league, made the argument that the reason why this is being done is that younger people are no longer interested in football, which I thought that in itself showed you how far removed owners or people that are involved in the ownership of football clubs are from their fan base, because for you to think that young people aren't interested in football is a massive bold statement and one that is completely incorrect. It is not that young people aren't interested in football, it’s that football isn't financially feasible for a lot of young people. It's not what it was, you know, 30, 40 years ago.
We’ve got a great job where we get to speak to people about their journeys into football, and you hear about how they would go weekly to go and watch their favorite team. But if you want to do that, now it's easily into the range of like £2000. And then you've got to think about, you know, if you want to watch football you've got to get three different subscriptions in the UK. You've got to get Sky, BT, BBC, and then sometimes–
Shireen: Or could get an illegal box! [laughter]
Fadumo: That too, but you know…
Shireen: Which we do not endorse!
Fadumo: We do not endorse.
Shireen: We’re just saying.
Fadumo: But, do you know what I mean? So there's all of these things that happen and it's like, football isn't financially…You’ve made football expensive for people and you've made it an elitist thing when it was never meant for that. So, I don't think there is going to be…Of course, in an ideal world, you want it to be like, oh my god, that’s a terrible ideas, please scrap it. But I don't think that's going to happen, unfortunately. I think it is something that they will go ahead with, but I do think having looked at the responses and the reactions to it, it's something that they might have to look at, how they do it. Because they've not only lost the trust of and the support of footballing fans. There are a lot of broadcasters that have also spoken out against this notion.
So, it would be interesting to see, over the next coming weeks, as the plans and the details start to roll out. Because essentially they want it to start in September,2021, which isn't that long from now. You'd need the details of where this will be hosted, what will be going on, et cetera. And as that comes out, you'll start to realize like, okay, cool. This is actually a deal.
Shireen: Of the things of what you just said that Perez said, about youth not being involved or being interested, is diametrically opposite to what I see. I see youth getting re-engaged with grassroots level football in such a tremendous way. And whether it’s participation, recreation, love, or activism, I just love what you said about the owners being so far removed from the fan base, because that's what it feels like. Now, onto a fun question. Well, just start with a fun question, because this is a heavy topic. Tell me, what are your hopes and dreams for the Champs League?
Fadumo: I tweeted this the other day and I got a lot of backlash for it, just because a lot of my friends are Chelsea fans. [Shireen laughs] So I want PSG, both men’s and women's teams to win the Champions League, respectively. I want Ramona Bachmann to score the winning goal because, you know, Chelsea let her go last season, which to me was a terrible idea. So, yeah, that's what I want. Whether it happens is another thing, but that's like an ideal vision that I have.
Shireen: I mean, I am all for PSG. I love Formiga. I want this for her. I love Nadia Nadim. I love, love, love, Jordan Huitema, Ashley Lawrence – two Canadian players. I love this for them. And of course, you know, I refer to Kylian Mbappé as my son-in-law. I may or may not have encouraged Fadumo to marry him! [Fadumo laughs] I may or may not have sent you that on a WhatsApp. I'm just saying, I love that team and I would love to see a little bit shake up. Thank you so much, especially I know you're fasting, and so much love to you and thank you for…I know the last two days have been chaotic for you, and through WhatsApp and coordination, but there's no one whose opinion I would've wanted on this other than yours.
Fadumo: No, no, it's okay. That's like, you know, that's why we enjoy the madness that is football, because you'll be sat at home thinking this is going to be such a good quiet week–– oh my god! [Shireen laughs] I literally thought second week of Ramadan, I was like, I'm really getting the groove of this. Like, I don't have that much to do. And then like, no. Literally, I think I must have said like on the day Mourinho got sacked as well, I was like, did these guys not get the memo that it's Ramadan!? We can't do this!
Shireen: [laughs] Get the memo! I was complaining because I'm writing finals right now and I was like, I can't do this! I was whining, and my son's like, “People fought wars, mama, just write your paper!” [laughter] I was like, oh, roasted! Okay.
Fadumo: That's a very parent thing to say to you though, it's kind of like role reversal.
Shireen: Totally. Oh man. But anyways, thank you so much. You are the best. I mean, I hope inshallah I see you when this pandemic is over, we get to collaborate on something in person, that would be perfect. But I do appreciate all your generosity and knowledge-sharing with Burn It All Down.
Fadumo: Thank you.