Interview: Jashvina Shah and Evan Moore, authors of Game Misconduct: Hockey's Toxic Culture and How to Fix It

In this episode, Shireen Ahmed is joined by journalists Jashvina Shah and Evan Moore to talk about their new book Game Misconduct: Hockey's Toxic Culture and How to Fix It. They discuss how they came to collaborate and write this book, pushback from fans and publishers and the importance of community for fans and players on the margins in hockey.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello flamethrowers! Shireen here. Well, am I ever delighted to have, on their publication day, Jashvina Shah and Evan Moore, coauthors of Game Misconduct: Hockey's Toxic Culture and How to Fix It. I'm so excited to have them here, and welcome to you both.

Jashvina: Thank you for having us. 

Evan: Thank you for having us. Long time coming.

Shireen: I am so excited to have both of them here. And let me tell you a little bit about our guests. Jashvina Shah is a friend of the show, has been on before. Jashvina is a reporter who currently covers college hockey and has covered a lot of sport at all levels for a decade. Her work has been featured as an honorable mention in the Best American Sports Writing 2019, 2020 editions. Currently she’s a national college hockey reporter, and in her free time she spends it with s’mores, her dog, researches about pirates, and crochets.

Evan is currently Chicago public school’s  press secretary. But in addition to that, his work so impactful, consists of topics of the intersections of sport, media, literacy, race, politics, violence, and culture. He has been featured in Rolling Stone, Chicago Magazine, Chicago Reader, Chicagoist, DNAinfo, ESPN’s Undefeated, and Bleacher Report. His work was featured in the 2019 edition of Best American Sports Writing books series. Evan is also a 2018 Lisagor award winner, and he is an adjunct professor of journalism at DePaul University and vice president of print for the National Association of Black Journalists, Chicago chapter. Woo! You guys fancy, huh? 

Evan: Yeahhh. [laughs]

Shireen: Okay. So, I read this book and I loved it, which can be no surprise to anybody. I need you to tell me about the inception of this book, particularly because it is a book about a sport that is predominantly white, written by two non-white people. So, let's talk about how this came to be. And how did you both end up collaborating on this important piece?

Jashvina: It was all because of a tweet. [laughs]

Evan: Yeah. That’s how it started. She just set that up like a podcast, “All because of a tweet,” and then you just hear music, and then I come in and say something like, well, we have both been individually talking about this idea – obviously without each other knowing it. And, like I said, I saw a tweet, and I reached out to Jashvina and I was like, hey, I saw your tweet, I'm literally thinking of doing the same thing. Let’s collaborate on this and make it a crossover event. And, you know, she was still with it because over time, you know, being a freelance writer, as you all know, is sometimes you have this information that you never use for a story, or it could be like a kill fee, or you already filed the story and people get back to you like after you already filed your story. And so you have all this information and it’s kind of like my impetus for wanting to do this.

Shireen: Okay. So, I love that. Had you guys worked together before, or did you meet over Twitter?

Jashvina: Well, yeah, we met over Twitter. I had Evan on my podcast once. Evan and I met when the Frozen Four was in Chicago and apparently when he saw me I was curling my hair in the hallway, which is very on-brand for me. [laughs] Oh boy. That trip was a trip.

Shireen: What year was that?

Jashvina: 2017. 

Shireen: Wow. So, you decided to collaborate. Did you have an idea, and did you pitch editors and publishers? Like, how did it happen?

Evan: Well, I mean, journalists, you know, we're around a lot of people who’ve written books, and I reached out to some publisher that I knew and, you know, we reached out to Dave Zirin and we basically ripped from his book template, you know, from one of his previous books. And knowing the fact that some publishers, they won't even talk to someone unless you have a literary agent, or some of them may want two or three chapters already written for them to take a look at. And hockey books are a tough sell, and we're talking about something that's going to piss a lot of people off. And we did reach out to a couple of publishers that was like, this is great, but where's the audience? Or whatever. And, you know, looking back, the publishers who we thought this would be a slam dunk were like, thanks but no thanks. And the publisher from books who we were kind of like, well, they probably won't do it because they do a lot of instant books that come on when a championship is won, like, within a day or two later, and you’re like, how did this book get out already? [Jashvina laughs]

And also, you know, they've written books about some of the people that we talk about in our book. So I was also kind of wondering, like, you know, they’re gonna talk to us about this. And I remember one of our very first meetings with the publisher over the phone, and one of them were like, oh yeah, hockey players are so great, they're this and that, they're solid people and everything else. And we were like, well, that's kind of it! You know, why do they get to have that exclusivity and other players in other sports are seen as barbaric, or some of the worst tropes and stereotypes you can have for players. So, yeah, that first conversation with the publisher, it was, well, it was a spirited one. [laughs]

Shireen: Spirited! And oh, those salt of the earth hockey players just, you know, wow. Jash, did you get initial pushback? Because I mean, you are not someone who has ever shied away from that, and you get a lot of criticism generally because of the nature of the work that you do and what you talk about. Have you felt that with this particular project?

Jashvina: Do you mean like generally, or from when we were kind of shopping it to publishers?

Shireen: Both actually, that's a great question. I didn't think about publishers, but yeah, obviously that's probably…

Jashvina: Yeah, because we did get rejected a couple of times actually, before we landed with Triumph. And it was more so like not really a lot of pushback, but they just didn't want to take it on. Personally, from where I am in college hockey at this point in my life, I have pretty much pissed off a lot of people who just generally do not mess with me. So they just don't acknowledge my presence [laughs] and so they're not going to say anything one way or the other. Like, they'll just ignore it, straight up ignore it. So, I mean, Evan and I have had people tweet at us – like random people who, you know, are “@matt70001500,” you know – those people will tweet at us just being like, “no one cares.” And I was tweeting at a hockey player actually because I was like, oh, you might be interested in our book. And someone had responded and said, “no one wants to see more of your work.”

And I was like… [laughs] I don't know. I'm so used to it, but it's just like, I mean, they're just the same trolls so whatever, their opinion doesn't really matter. There are like some creeps who are constantly stalking our Twitter feeds, which is just…They don't realize their behavior is very creepy – but it is, and they should stop – who are like constantly screaming. It's just very, very weird. So yeah, I guess there has been pushback in that sense. I haven't really felt it directly from any of the teams, and actually now I don't cover the big 10 anymore because I'm national, but I was up until very recently.

So actually one of the interviews in my book is Ryan Miller, and I got a hold of him because I know the head coach at Michigan State because I've been covering him since he started coaching college. And, you know, he's someone who…I explained to him we're writing about, and I just said hey, you know, I know Ryan Miller is involved in a lot of activism and stuff, would you mind seeing if you could connect him with me? And he did. There was no pushback whatsoever. So, I mean, I've gotten a lot of support from people in college hockey. Like, I know when I'm in Chicago, I'm definitely meeting up with my big 10 people. We’re going to celebrate. [laughs] So, yes and no, but a lot of people in college hockey are too afraid of me to be publicly outspoken against the book. So that's kind of where we are.

Shireen: I think that’s something that's powerful, and also can be something that it's almost like when you get that criticism, you know you're doing something right. What I wanted to ask was that there’s a pretty wonderful community and a burgeoning community of racialized people that are into hockey, and those that are from the margins. And what I really love about the book is that you actually hit on a lot of those things. It wasn't just actually about, you know, structural racism and institutionalized racism within hockey. And you separate hockey the game and hockey from the toxic culture, which I think is really important, and it's done in a very meaningful way. But also, how you also outlined racism, but also sexism and sexual violence, bullying, hazing, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, and biphobia.

And I think that’s…I’ve never seen it all in one place before, because there's different people who talk about different things in their wheelhouse. But you have it literally in this one book. So, how did you decide what to talk about, or were both of you on the same page about these things?

Jashvina: I think we were mostly on the same page. I think early on, we made like a master list of a ton of topics. And then, you know, we had like 50 or…Not 50, but we had a lot, so we had to narrow it down. And these were the kind of six key ones that we decided to feature. These were the ones that we thought were…I don’t want to say the most important, but that needed to be talked about in this book pretty pressingly. And they were big topics, and there were only two really that Evan and I sort of fall into the category of, and the other ones, you know, we relied heavily on other people and their experiences and their voices and using the book as sort of a vessel for their message and what they've experienced.

And just sort of in terms of talking with other people as we were interviewing as well, you know, these were kind of the same topics of things that they thought were really important that, you know, needed to be touched on. There are many more, unfortunately, that we just didn't get a chance to mention, but these seemed to be like the ones that absolutely had to be in the book. 

Shireen: Evan, how much of yourself did you bring to this book?

Evan: There are some incidents and some things that family found out about, you know? I talk about when I was called the n-word by a teammate back in high school, and I kept that to myself. And I remember my mom reading the book and she was like, was that why you wanted to leave that school? I was like, no, but…Well, it was top five! But yeah, I think for me, saying in other interviews how one of my goals is, as you know, my daughter plays hockey, and I don't want there to ever have to be a situation where someone says something to her and nobody does anything about it. I want her to tell me or tell the coach or something.

I don't want it to be a situation where people like me and Akim Aliu, he internalized what happened to him for years, and it had an adverse effect on probably how he saw himself as a person and as a player. And I think a lot about that, because I remember interviewing Jamal Mayers for a story a couple of years ago and we were talking about a little, saying…Thinking about that, he was like, this guy didn't have anybody to reach out to, and he probably looked at coaching in a negative way from then on.

So, other stuff is, you know, how I became a hockey fan, because I get that a lot. You know, people always ask, as a Black man from the south side of Chicago, you know, being a hockey fan and not only being a fan but being pretty knowledgeable about it. So I will say that. I’ll say, you know, just some of the stuff that's kind of happened all the time that I've noticed in this sport in terms of race and cultural things and generational stuff, and like, listen to sports talk radio here in Chicago and people being like…Blackhawks fans being really angry that people are talking about the Bulls and it was like, we're in a basketball city! Like, that's weird.

And also, the people who are born in places like Toronto, and hearing from them how they felt like they were turned off of hockey. And I feel like that's a correlation between that and the number of NBA players who are from Canada, particularly the Toronto area. And I feel like part of that is the repudiation of hockey culture and that attitude and, you know, historically shutting people out. 

Shireen: I think that's really important, Evan, the idea of shutting people out, because that's what you both completely push back against, that idea of exclusion. Jash, what about you and your experiences? And how were they instructive in the way that you approached writing this book?

Jashvina: In a way, I think that it was and it wasn’t, because I use writing and journalism as a way to channel my emotions. So like, in 2015 when BU lost the national championship game, [laughs] that was how I dealt with it for like two weeks. So I kind of look at everything from an analytical perspective. And I did mention like some of the experiences that I had had…I don’t even know if I mentioned that many, looking back at it. I mentioned something that I had reported and kind of the story behind that and how the incident wasn't really ever dealt with. The only place that I really put anything personal like that was in the introduction, which…I’m so desensitized to what happened, that I didn't realize how jarring it is for someone to read it – especially someone who knows me, because my friends, my family, they all know what happened, but I don't think they understand the extent, because my sister-in-law called me and she was quite upset. Like, the day she got the book, she opened it up and that's what she started reading.

So, yeah, that’s…To Evan's point, I mean, it's kind of terrifying to be like, okay, here, you know? I want you to read this book, but I also don't want you to read it, because I don't want you to…Like, it's hurtful, I think, for people who know you to read what it was like, and to know more about what you went through. So that part definitely was kind of vital, I think, for me to add, because it was a really big turning point in my relationship with hockey. But the only place where I used my personal experiences really is that I work for a youth serving organization, so I know a lot about youth protection, and I had the chapter on systemic abuse. So that was something that was super helpful for me, because I know what you're supposed to do and I know what's not being done. So while I did do a significant amount of research, I just had that knowledge beforehand. 

Shireen: I really love hearing about this because as racialized folks that cover hockey, we're often told that our experiences shouldn't inform the way we approach something. But you know, I disagree with that, and I think very much we and our lived experiences are very valuable. You used real experiences of people, whether it was, you know, Chanel or whether it was Renee Hess as well, who did the forward. I want to ask about the joy that this book brought you. What was, in co-writing, the most joyous thing about writing this book? Because the topic is very heavy, and we talk about heavy stuff on this show all the time, but I want to talk about what was joyous for you. Evan, what made you really happy about writing this book?

Evan: I mean, what made me happy? That's a really good question. I really hadn’t thought about that because, you know, we talk about, like you said, the content is heavy and it's not fun. And I guess the fact that there are people who have been waiting for something like this for a long time, and like I’ve even been saying about…Let’s think about most of the books that have been written about hockey and race and all these other issues. They've been all mostly written by white people. But not in a way where it's like…Because what you said about your thoughts on the book is what we pretty much heard from other folks who read the book. They feel like it's a lot of information and they liked the way we tie it all together. And I always tell people, you don't necessarily have to be like a hockey fan to understand it, because these things permeate in education and law enforcement and any vocation you can think of. But we're talking about hockey, and it seems to be more insidious within the sport. 

Jashvina: I think for me, the one thing that made me happy was that I got a message from…He graduated now, but at the time he was a D1 goalie and he basically said, “I want to talk to you.” And when we were on the phone, he was basically like, yeah, I'm scared, but I can’t…You know, if I put my name to this, then maybe someone else will too. And for me, having been around college hockey for, what, like a decade now, I didn't think that would happen, because…I mean, I know that we have had…And this player is white. So, we have had players of color speak out, but really there were a couple of players that I talked to who are white. And it was to me kind of like trying…I just didn't think that that would really be the case. But I mean, we had a player kneeling in North Dakota who was white.

And I mean, while I don't believe that for white people, like, them being scared is an excuse, sort of. Like, that's not an easy thing to do in North Dakota. They are crazy about hockey there. You don't like…It was a probably a really scary thing to do. But being able to talk to those players and have them be willing to put their name to it and talk about it and say like, yeah, there's a problem, we need to fix it. And in a place that's so small really meant a lot to me. And it really made me happy. I still talk to this player. So, it also personally made me feel less alone, because there are a handful of players that I've known in college hockey, who I know I can trust and are good people. So it was nice to have another person. 

Shireen: And I love very much what you just touched upon, about community and sort of expanding that community, and that community that understands that these things are interlinked with hockey, which is one of the reasons that it made sense to me that Renee Hess, who is the founder of the Black Girl Hockey Club, did your forward. Because that's what it's about, is community. And you both have really given everybody a gift with this book. Not only is it informative and necessary, but there's no point where there's a boundary of who can and cannot love hockey. And I think that's so important. But we're going to have some fun, because I have both of you on at the same time. So I'm going to do a hockey rapid fire [Jashvina laughs] round for both of you. And my questions are not censored. So you gotta answer them! Okay?

Jashvina: Okay. 

Evan: Okay, okay. [laughs]

Shireen: And then we'll do it this way. I'll go Jash and then Evan, and the next one Evan and Jash, and back and forth. Okay. So there's only like five questions. Here we go. Rapid fire round. Favorite hockey team of all time? Jash. 

Jashvina: Oh, god. College or pro or anything?

Shireen: Anything.

Jashvina: Obviously BU.

Shireen: [laughs] Evan?  

Evan: 2010 Blackhawks.

Shireen: Favorite player of all time?

Jashvina: That’s really hard. I'm going to go with Doyle Somerby, because he was one of my kids. I covered him when he was in college and I've known him since he was like 18 years old and I trust him. [laughs]

Evan: Jarome Iginla.

Shireen: Ah, yeah. Good one. Best hockey rivalry in the game, men or women? Evan.

Evan: I would say the best one is Blackhawks and Red Wings, because of the respect there. With the Blues, it’s pure hate. Let’s be honest. [Shireen laughs]

Jashvina: It's a toss up between USA-Canada women, or BU and BC. 

Shireen: Okay. Those answers are so on brand. And yes, I was waiting for one of y'all to say that, but yes, your answers are totally on brand. Most influential racialized hockey player of all time. Jash? 

Jashvina: It definitely has to be Willie O’Ree. Or Angela James.

Evan: I'm gonna go out to left field and name a league, the Colored Hockey League. I’d have to say that's the most influential, like in terms of slap shots and the butterfly style of goaltending.

Shireen: What I love about that is my question was about player and Evan's like, no, I'm going to disrupt and I'm going to ignore your question. [laughter] So I love that for me. And I love that for this. Last question: if you could watch a hockey game with one hockey player, who would it be?

Evan: Current or retired?

Shireen: Both. One of each.

Evan: Okay. A player I want to name…He’s not officially retired. I'm going to say Dustin Byfuglien, because he seems, you know, pretty crazy, and he would have a good time. But I guess in terms of like…He’s not really current, but current player…Wow. I'm gonna go to left field because for this because I just watched the…It was on a Prime, a documentary I’d seen on the Maple Leafs. So I’m gonna go William Nylander. [laughter]

Shireen: Okay. I was not expecting Nylander! [Jashvina laughs] I feel like this is a personal attack. You know I’m a Habs fan! 

Evan: Oh yeah. I know. I know. I was watching that. I was like, Shireen’s going to be mad at me for watching this, but he just seemed like he was pretty hilarious, and also likes pissing people off at the same time. So, just watching that collapse was kind of cringy, honestly. Like, watch it being documented.

Jashvina: [laughs] The current player is really hard. I would have to think in depth about people and their personalities. But for retired players, I think I would say Kimberly Newell. She used to be a goalie at Princeton, and I did talk to her about goaltending, and she had probably the most insightful answers out of anyone I'd ever talked to about her process and about the technical aspects. So, I would enjoy picking her brain during a hockey game. As far as current player goes…Oh my gosh, I don't think I have an answer. Someone who plays with a Bruins probably. 

Shireen: Again, again! Anyways…

Jashvina: Pasta? He seems like it would be fun to watch a game with. [laughter]

Shireen: This has been awesome. I'm so excited for this book. I'm so grateful to you both for doing this project together. And I can't wait to see you in person so you can sign my copy. And it's really interesting because two of the most important voices in hockey, in my opinion, have done this. And so I thank you. I thank you on behalf of a hockey community that's in the margins. And I thank you for being on the show. Where can we, before we sign off, where can we find your work? 

Jashvina: Oh gosh. Well, I write for College Hockey News mostly now. That's pretty much it, but I link to a lot of stuff on my website, which is just my name.

Shireen: Evan?

Evan: Right now, I still sometimes have stuff out there. So I would say, follow me on Twitter, @evanFmoore. You'll see it on there. 

Jashvina: You can also find me on Twitter, but I'm extremely annoying. So, I'm warning you. [laughs] 

Shireen: I don't think so, because you being on Twitter resulted in a book. So, I think you’re–

Jashvina: That’s true. You know, I complain about Twitter all the time, but everything in my journalism career I have, I pretty much owe to Twitter. So, you know…

Shireen: And I think as much as we hate Twitter, and it can be stressful and terrible, we also, all three of us, met through Twitter as well. So, there are spaces for those in the margins to meet each other and connect and create community. And I'm so grateful to be in yours. So, thanks again for being on Burn It All Down.

Jashvina: Thank you for having us.

Evan: Thanks for having us.