Interview: Jenny Nguyen, Owner of The Sports Bra Bar

In this episode, Shireen Ahmed talks with Jenny Nguyen, owner of The Sports Bra, a bar for women's sports in Portland, Oregon opening April 1, 2022. They discuss everything from the menu and decor, to why it is important to have a community space dedicated to women's sports.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers. Well, am I just so excited for today's guest. This is probably the guest that I've actually been notified the most, in my years, of “you have to interview this person.” I'm so excited to have Jenny Nguyen on with us from Portland, Oregon. Jenny, hello.

Jenny: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Shireen: Jenny is not only a superstar chef, she is a basketball player, a lifelong basketball player, and a Portland Thorns stan, which we love, obviously. She’s also the founder and soon to be proprietor of The Sports Bra, a sports bar for women's sports.

Jenny: That's correct. I wouldn't call myself a superstar chef, by any means. [Shireen laughs] I have had a little bit of formal training and I have had a few years back of the house. But yeah, I wouldn't call myself a superstar chef. [laughs]

Shireen: That's what all the superstar chefs say. They're so humble. [Jenny laughs] So, I want to talk a little bit about The Sports Bra, because when I got this email, initially, I was like, The Sports Bra? I love sports bras. I have them. But then I was like, there's a restaurant bar opening? And I'm like, oh, this sounds dope. But the story was that you were out with friends trying to watch NCAA playoffs, and we're getting into March Madness right now. We're in March Madness, rather. And you weren't able to watch this game with the sound on, and how frustrating that was. Was that the catalyst for all of this?

Jenny: That is the memory that I have the most vivid, of it being the time that I kind of most frustrated. Because I mean, my friends and I were often frustrated with...We’re not the only ones, where we go into a bar trying to get women's sports on TV, and sometimes it's fine. Sometimes they change the channel and everything's great. And sometimes, you know, you go in there and so many people are watching whatever sport is already on and they're like, you know, sorry, we can't right now. But that game particular stands out in my mind because it was so amazing. And so that moment stands out in my mind. And afterwards, we came out and we were just talking about what a wonderful game it was. And then somebody was just like, yeah, it would have been so much better if the sound was on. 

And it was like that clicking moment where it's just like, have we gotten so used to the quality and level of viewership that we have in public spaces for women's sports that we don't even notice something as huge as like having the volume on? And so, yeah, it was at that moment that I said something to the effect of, man, the only time we can ever get a women's sports game to play for real is if we have our own place. And it was just totally, you know, said out of frustration and a joke, like, didn't mean anything by it at all at the time. 

Shireen: And so what game was it? 

Jenny: So, that was the 2018 NCAA women's finals. It was Notre Dame against Mississippi State. And Notre Dame was down by like 23 or something, came back from behind, and Arike hit a last second three pointer. And we just lost it in this bar. It was incredible.

Shireen: I remember Arike’s shot. We all reverberated through the universe.

Jenny: Oh my gosh, I get goosebumps just thinking about it.

Shireen: And I mean, that's the thing, those moments that we remember, those are the memories that The Sports Bra will have. I saw another quote of yours saying this isn't a sports bar for women, it's a bar for women's sports. So like, anybody is welcome into this place. So like, we want to welcome those communities. And I love how I'm saying “we” here, because I'm already part of your team. 

Jenny: [laughs] I love it. 

Shireen: I'm the Toronto base of your team. No, but just how this is so important. And until I saw your Kickstarter, and you've you reached the goal.

Jenny: Big time. Yeah. 

Shireen: And how did that make you feel when that happened? That your idea really reverberated with everyone? 

Jenny: It was nuts, you know? When I had the idea, of course I thought it was a great idea, right? And then I told my girlfriend, she's like, yeah, you know, it was actually her idea for me to even get started, because we had been joking back and forth for years about The Sports Bra. Like, it had just been an ongoing joke for us. And you know, one day she was just like, you know how you joke about The Sports Bra? I'm like, yeah. She goes, you should do it. [laughs] So, you know, she thought it was a good idea. I thought it was a good idea. Then when I started to think more seriously about it, I talked to my friends, and of course they're like, this is the best idea ever. But again, these are our friends that we share a bunch of similarities, you know, these are girls that we met playing basketball 20 years ago or whatever. And you just never know what it'll be like when you release that idea into the public sphere. Like, I just didn’t know. I hoped that people would be into it, but the amount of support and how the community and people from all over have really rallied around the concept of The Sports Bra has just been mind-blowing. 

Shireen: So, one of our co-hosts, Jessica Luther, has told her husband Aaron that they will go back to Portland specifically when The Sports Bra opens, and I'm finding myself like, okay, I need to get to Portland. And hopefully your idea will take off in other places. Like, you know, it doesn't make sense logistically for me to only watch women's sports in Portland because I live in Toronto, so that may not work out. [laughs] So, hopefully your initiative, what I'm saying, will catch on. Is that what you were hoping too? Because did you set out to be a trailblazer and like a visionary? 

Jenny: No, I definitely did not. I mean, there was a guy that I worked with for years, and he's been a mentor to me. He was my executive chef and kind of took me on when I was like a prep cook and kind of helped guide me all the way up through the ranks. And so when I started to really seriously think about opening The Sports Bra, he was the first person I went to talk to. He is the culinary director for about 13 or 14 restaurants here in Portland. So he knows stuff. And so I sat down with him and I gave him the idea, just kind of gave him the short pitch. And one of the first things he said was, are you willing to franchise? Like, right off the bat. And it blew my mind because it never occurred to me. I was mostly asking him to see if it was even a legitimate concept. You know what I mean? Like, will it work? I have no idea. Because it's one of those things where it's like, nobody's done it before – maybe there's a reason why nobody's done it before? But yeah, the first question he said was, are you willing to franchise? Because I think it will be huge. And he kind of planted that seed and I was just like, well, let me just get this one up and running. [laughter] But I would love…Like, in my dream scenario, I franchise and open The Sports Bra in like maybe a dozen major cities around the country. Maybe Toronto.

Shireen: Yeah. I was gonna say, can I put a request in?

Jenny: Yeah, you're not the only one. I've gotten a couple of requests from Toronto. [laughs]

Shireen: I love that. I just got goosebumps when you said that, because women in these spaces are taught to not diminish your dreams, but just sort of “let's be realistic.” You know, and all those same convoluted arguments we get about putting women's sports on television to begin with. We know the product is amazing. We know that. I mean, the most watched soccer game in the history of the United States is a women's team. And in Canada, it's similar. So, I have a question about the food, because I love food, and I am very interested in the food. I don't know if you're allowed to tell before the opening what's on your menu? But can we talk about the fare? Is this pub food? What are we talking about here?

Jenny: Sure. Yeah, it is definitely pub food. So, my goal with The Sports Bra is, you know, exactly like the name. It's taking something really familiar or really traditional, like a sports bar, and change just the tiniest bit, but that tiny bit can make a huge difference. So like, just like in the name, you know, you switched two letters around and it makes a huge difference, right? And then you go into the space and it feels just…I want it to feel like a regular sports bar, but then you know, you've changed who the posters are of. You change the channel, who's playing. So it's like these tiny little tweaks. And that's what I want reflected in the food as well. So, it's going to be your standard pub fare, like burgers, nachos, wings, you know, a couple of salads. We’re gonna make a lot of things from scratch. We're sourcing stuff from some local women. 

We're also trying to pay more attention to people with dietary restrictions. So having like gluten-free, dairy-free, vegan, vegetarian options on there, because that was another thing that my friends and I…We would go to sports bars and, you know, we could only eat French fries or a wedge salad with oil and vinegar, you know? So the options weren't very plentiful at the time. Granted we live in Portland, so it's a lot better a situation than most other places around the country, I imagine. But the food should feel familiar.

Shireen: I mean, I love that. One of our other co-hosts Brenda is a vegetarian, and she's reduced to tater tots only, but she loves tater tots, so that works out. Do you have tater tots on your menu?

Jenny: You betcha. I love tater tots, it’s definitely on the menu.

Shireen: Brenda's gonna like, what!? Oh yeah, definitely. And we actually had a live taping like a month ago in Portland, but we're going to have to do it again, obviously. 

Jenny: I think so, yeah.

Shireen: [laughs] I’m so excited for this in so many ways. So, the other thing I wanted to kind of ask you about was family friendly. When you pick a sports bars, you don't automatically think of kids. So how are you navigating that space? 

Jenny: It's just mostly, you know, there's a bar like seating area. So everything at the bar is 21 and over, but everything in the dining room is family-friendly. And in Oregon, you can have it set up like that until 10:00pm. And so with our hours, we close at 11, because, you know, I feel like with our clientele, we're really there to watch sports, and a lot of games are done by 10, 10:30 at the latest. We're not looking for that really late night crowd or anything.

Shireen: Especially if you're in the west coast. Like, I mean, for us, it's a little bit different, our games can go pretty late, but yeah.

Jenny: Yeah. And then for the family friendly aspect, it was one of those things that came later in the concept. So, my girlfriend and I, we met playing basketball here in Portland 12 years ago, and we both thought about how much of a difference it would've made in our lives or what kind of impact it would have had if our parents had taken us to a place like The Sports Bra as kids. And just when we thought about that, I was like, let's do that. Let's make it kid-friendly, because it's important to have girls see women playing sports. And then when I did decide that, I kind of did some research on the impact of sports on girls, and there is just so many studies showing a wide range of incredible, just how impactful sports are on girls, everything from, you know, positive body image to decreased levels of suicide, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, easier to make friends. You know, there was some study that said like 80 something percent of the women in the Fortune 500 played sports in high school. And so it's just like, why wouldn't we want our girls to have the exposure to women's sports so that they have the opportunity or the desire to want to continue to play or to even to start to play with all the positive benefits? So, it just seemed like a win-win situation for us. 

Shireen: So, this is more than a sports bar, Jenny, this feels like a place where it's so intentional, what you're doing, which is so important and like a community space, a welcoming space, like, yeah. But also we're going to have those rivalries, like, I mean, when Portland plays Washington or whomever, it's going to be like, oh, wait a minute, you know? [laughs] Speaking of which, you need to tell me who your favorite soccer player is. 

Jenny: [laughs] Oh man. So, to be honest, I'm not a huge soccer fan. Basketball is my jam. Basketball's my favorite sport. I've been getting a lot of Thorns stuff because people are really jazzed for the bar. But if I had to pick a soccer player that would be my favorite?

Shireen: No pressure, because I'm Canadian. 

Jenny: Yeah. I that's too hard. I don't want to put myself in the hole with it. [laughs]

Shireen: Okay. That's totally fine. We'll hold a place for Christine Sinclair here just in case, and then we can fill it in later. I'm projecting, mightily. 

Jenny: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I get it. 

Shireen: So, your favorite basketball team, WNBA, who's your favorite W team? 

Jenny: That's another thing, is Portland doesn't have a team. If they did, that would be my team, right? I mean, the W is so incredible. I love…It’s like a love-love relationship with every team, you know? [Shireen laughs] There’s so many players doing so many great things. Yeah. I can't pick. I really can't pick, like, don't make me choose.

Shireen: It's so hard, because I love UConn. So then I followed so many, and a lot of the players ended up at Liberty, but then Chicago stole our hearts, and then I'm like, wait a minute, Phoenix, Kia Nurse – the Canadian connection is in Phoenix now! So I'm just like, you know what? Give me everyone's jerseys. So you love basketball. Are you into other sports as well? 

Jenny: I tried playing other sports when I was younger and it never caught. Like, one kind of funny story is my dad's a huge soccer fan, and so when I was like in elementary school, he tried to get me into a soccer club or something. And whenever the ball got kicked towards me, I would just pick it up and want to dribble it. [Shireen laughs] And so they were like, oh, Jenny, use your feet. And so they eventually moved me to the goalie position because I always wanted to hold. But I was just really too small for a goalie, so it never really stuck. But no, no other sports. I'm kind of a one trick pony.

Shireen: I want to talk a little bit about the decor. So, did you just go within your networks? Did you design it yourself? What was that process like? 

Jenny: I think in my mind, I had a vision of what I wanted the space to look like, but really it boils down to what you can find, you know? What was available, what's for lease. And coming out of the pandemic, especially restaurants in Portland, those leases were getting snatched up as fast as something was being put on the market, somebody was moving in, like, it's nuts. Like, just like the housing market, it's crazy over here. So it was just like, I didn't want to make up my mind because I knew I had to be flexible depending on whatever space I got into. So, it wasn't until I found this spot on Northeast Broadway where I walked in and so much of it was already set up, even as the restaurant it was at the time, I could still see it as The Sports Bra. I was like, this is it. This has the bones. There's not much that needs to be done, just decorating. And so when I walked in, it was kind of like an aha moment and it was just like, yes, this is it. Now I can see it. But yeah, everything has been kind of fly by night with me, because there's so much learning and there's so much kind of just flying by the seat of your pants and just hoping for the best. It's a lot. It really is. 

Shireen: What's the biggest takeaway? Because I mean, with your culinary experience, usually in the kitchen, right? And now you're overseeing everything. So what’s the biggest takeaway for you from this entire initiative? 

Jenny: I mean, so far I think there's multiple things. So, first is realizing that you don't know anything, you know? Like, I thought having my restaurant experience was going to give me some benefit, and I would say, yeah, maybe 2%, but there's the 98% that I don't know. Everything from accounting, business, to tapping a keg, you know? I've never poured a beer before, like, not for anybody else outside of a bottle. Or taking an order. Like, I just hired some front of the house staff and I'm learning so much from them because I've literally never waited a table in my life. So, yeah. So, step one, realizing you don't know anything. Step two, asking for all the help you can possibly ask for. I've said this before to somebody else, but like, if somebody could do like an illustration of me, it would be me standing up, but then like if you panned around my body, it would be pretty much a thousand hands holding me up, you know what I mean? 

Shireen: Oh, wow. 

Jenny: Like, there's no way anyone does this alone. Yeah, I can cook a burger, you know, but how do you all the other things? So, it's just been so much learning. Like, my brain hurts, everything hurts. [Shireen laughs] But you know, just asking people and just finding out, okay, who knows the most about this? And then just reaching out and just being, hey, this is what I'm up to, I would love if you could help. And people who just love the concept have just been 150% there for me. 

Shireen: I love that this is garnering so much positive attention. It's really invigorating and exciting, you know? Like, I feel very deeply when you say that there's women's sports…Like, if women's hockey is on in Canada, we'll watch it. If it's like Olympics or worlds or something, but what about in between, right? So just to think that we can go to a place, there is a place for us to gather in communities who love women's sports together and watch it. So, logistical question: some women's sports are actually not shown on main TV.

They're streamed. So like today, PHF is starting the Isobel Cup in Florida. So, what's your approach for that in different ways in which women's sports are shown? How are you going to offer that to your bar-goers?  

Jenny: Yeah, that's a great question. So, I get a lot of requests for streaming sports because a majority of women's sports are streaming, and it's kind of a double-edged sword because those streaming services pay very little money to get access to these sports, but they know that there is viewership potential there. And so that's one part of it. The other part of it is that I would say like 98% of all streaming services are for personal use only. They are not for commercial use. And I guarantee 80 to 90% of all sports bars out there are streaming things. But there’s upwards of 75,000 sports bars in the country. And what are the chances that somebody's going to walk in there and catch them streaming Fubo, you know? But with The Sports Bra, it’s kind of on its own. And I feel like a spotlight has kind of shone on it. And so like the idea that maybe I could just sneak in like a YouTube video or something just doesn't sound like…I want to do it by the book. I mostly want to start off by the book so that people know what is available, because it's not much. 

On top of that, a lot of requests come in for streaming and I'm like, hey, I'm happy to play it if it’s on TV. If it's on broadcast, cable, satellite, if it's on one of these channels, absolutely. We will play it, 100%. But if it's on a streaming service, there's not a way for me to do it right now. There are a few that you can buy a commercial license for, but sometimes it just doesn't make any sense. For example, ESPN+ has a business version and the business version isn't as expansive as the personal version either. So, the personal version you probably have access to about 40,000 games a week. The business one, you have access to about 8,000 games a week. And when I talk to them about buying a commercial license, I asked them, okay, well, I'm only interested in watching the women's sports, and so how much of that is women's sports? And he said on average about four games a week.

Shireen: Out of 8,000?!

Jenny: That's what they told me. And they wanted $450 a month. So, to me, that doesn't make any sense. So I was a hard no on that one. 

Shireen: I'm sorry. Those numbers are staggering, 

Jenny: Yeah. And then during something like March Madness, but you know, during the rest of the year, a lot of those streaming services like ESPN+ are focused on other things like MMA or boxing or those other kind of sports that don't get full-time on network stations. But yeah, so, streaming is a whole situation. One thing that I've been working on, but I feel like it can be someone else's full-time job, is to reach out to leagues and streaming services and work on deals to get us access. A lot of streaming services are like, this is a great idea, but literally no one has ever asked us. You know, nobody's ever asked them for women's sports to be streamed in a commercial setting. 

Shireen: Wow. So, hear that, flamethrowers, if any of you are sports business majors out there and you want to go and work with Jenny, you know, do up a business case. I think this is really interesting because it's almost like someone has taken passions and wants and needs of so many people and centralized it, which is exactly what you've done. And then everyone's like, oh, wait a minute, yeah, this is actually really important for all the reasons you've mentioned. And, you know, having a gathering place. I have really high hopes for The Sports Bra. I'm looking forward to the merch as well. Just so that people realize that, yes, this is not only valid, but successful, and this will go. And yeah, I'm so excited for many, many reasons. Also because I'm hoping there'll be Mexican food on the menu as well.

Jenny: Well, not really. There's going to be nachos, which aren’t really a Mexican food. I just love to eat Mexican food personally. But it's mostly like American pub fare. 

Shireen: Okay. I mean, when I come to Portland, we can go get Mexican food though. How about that? [laughs]

Jenny: That sounds great. 

Shireen: What has brought you the most joy out of this process, Jenny? 

Jenny: Oh man. It has got to be just people reaching out to me and telling me how much this concept or even just this idea or this journey that we're all taking kind of together I feel like has impacted them or impacted their daughters or their nieces. And just the stories that I read, these emails and tweets and DMs from people from all over are just…It’s amazing. Like, I had no idea. Again, it was one of those things where you have the idea in your head and you think this is a great idea to me and this is why it matters to me a lot. And then you see that it matters to so many other people in the same way. It just feels…It’s overwhelming. Like, I don't really have words for it. But there's been multiple times where I've read somebody say something and I'll just like burst out into tears. Like, it's real. 

And it's just another thing where it’s like, it's not just a sports bar, you know? And it's not just sports. It’s this shared experience with people, and you know, just like…I liken it to like art or music or even love, you know? Like, this expansive feeling that people have together. And sports is just another one of those things. So, yeah, I would say the thing that has brought me the most joy is definitely hearing from people that are just so excited for even just the idea of it. We haven't even opened yet. And I'm hoping that excitement, you know, sticks around afterwards. [laughs]

Shireen: Yeah. I didn't think I was going to tear up. That was not on my bingo card when I talked to you, to be like, I'm going to get all emotional in this interview. I didn't have that. I didn't see that. But so they see that the first year for this type of business, this type of venture is the hardest. Although I know you said you've leaned on a lot of people and people have helped out. You do have that experience and you're familiar with the restaurant business anyway. But are you expecting the first year to be most challenging? Or is that just like an urban myth?

Jenny: Oh no. I 100% expect the first year to be challenging. I think when you're talking about restaurant openings, the challenge is in a different way than what I'm thinking our challenges are going to be. Like, for most restaurants when they open, you know, it's kind of quiet. They have to build a clientele. They don't know if people are going to be into what they're doing. And so there's the risk in that. And then, you know, hopefully they gain traction, get some publicity, and then maybe build a clientele from that. And then the word gets out, so on, so forth. And that can sometimes take two, three years. So with The Sports Bra, when I wrote the business plan, I was planning on that experience, you know, your most common restaurant experience, which is starts low and kind of just hope that people like it and all those things. And now I'm having to rewrite everything that I had planned, you know, everything from staffing to my menu. Like, I started out with a menu that had probably 22 items on it, and now it's down to 16 maybe. And after we opened the doors, it may cut down even more because it’s just I think we're going to be super, super busy, and that has its challenges and its own way, you know?

Another thing to mention is the bar is really a neighborhood pub size, so we sit maybe 40 people in there. So, it's small. So, the challenge of having, you know, all the publicity and people being so excited for it, and it's like, okay, well there's 40 seats in here, and people come in and they probably want to watch a game, you know? Which may take anywhere from, I would say, 45 minutes to two and a half hours. So, trying to figure out how to communicate that to the guests and just making sure people know what to expect.

Shireen: I don't drink. Like, I don't have a neighborhood bar, but I love that my neighborhood bar is going to be in Portland, [Jenny laughs] because I have this vision that I walk in and like Norm did and cheers, everyone goes, “Norm!” I'm like, I would love for it to be like, “Shireen!” Do you know what I mean? Because like, yeah, I would totally want to come. And if games go into OT, like, I'm not going anywhere! You know what I mean? And I love that feeling, and you know, I wish you and your team all the best. Like, you will see Burn It All Down there in some capacity at some point. 

Jenny: Yes, please.

Shireen: Yeah, definitely. We're huge fans and so excited. And we're so grateful for this, Jenny, because I think you're creating a seismic shift in the way that you can consume your sports. It's like the ultimate watch party all the time, with great food and great community. Like, what else do we want? That's what we want. And for our listeners who don't know, where can we find you and the restaurant and your work, and if they still want to contribute, can they do that? 

Jenny: So, the Kickstarter is closed. It got knocked out of the park. We over doubled what we were asking for. So, thank goodness, because again, that first year is rough. And you know, because of all the hype and everything, I pretty much double hired. Like, doubled the staff that I was planning on, just because I'm scared. Like, I want to be overly prepared. And I'm not sure if I can be at this point. But we're located on 25th and Broadway in northeast Portland. We have a website, www.thesportsbrapdx.com. Our merch right now is kind of all sold out. 

Shireen: [laughs] I know, I tried to buy some! 

Jenny: When I get a moment to breathe, I will…I mean, we're going to have a few items on site, eventually. But as far as like a store, like online store and stuff, that's in the works. Like, I haven't even thought about it right now, honestly. So, that's TBD. But yeah, I would say, you know, other things that people have mentioned is the idea that other women's sports bars may open because of The Sports Bra. And I would love that, you know? I would love nothing more than to have more and more people have access to women's sports. That's ultimately the goal. Yeah. And then if I do ever franchise out, come pay me a visit in Minneapolis or New York City or LA or Chicago, you know? Those are all just great cities that I would love, love, love to have a spot in.

Shireen: So, last question: are you accepting decor donations? Like, if someone wants to send you a kit or a jersey of something, a team wants to send you something, are you up for that?

Jenny: We were for awhile because I put out a thing on Insta and instead I was just like, hey, we have a trophy shelf up, if you have any like cheesy trophies you won in elementary school or that's like taking up room in your mom's basement, you know, send it my way. And that kind of launched a whole thing. And so now we have all this stuff that we need, [Shireen laughs] so, no more stuff. But I imagine if we ever do franchise, you can save that stuff and send it that way. [laughs]

Shireen: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think that would be amazing. And would you love to see athletes come in and hang hang out?

Jenny: You know, I think yes. I mean, I think, you know, sure. Again, I'm open to everybody being there, like an accepting space, you know? But mostly it's for the community. And I also feel like, you know, these all-stars, they probably want their privacy, and The Sports Bra is probably the last place that they can get that. So, I want them to be comfortable, you know? But you know, the space is really for the community. I have a volunteer PR person and she was just like, we can get this famous person, this famous person to come to your grand opening. I was like, no, you know, because if they're taking a seat, that's a seat that one of our fans or our community members can't sit at, and the space is really for them, you know? That’s kind of my feeling on it. 

Shireen: We can do an after hours Christine Sinclair/Jenny/Shireen hangout maybe!

Jenny: I'm down with that. I'm down with that. Yeah. 

Shireen: Yeah. This is really a game-changer. So, godspeed, I hope everything goes beautifully. It will be hectic. And I'm so excited for you. Thank you so much for doing this. So, where can our listeners find you on Instagram and Twitter? 

Jenny: Oh yeah. So, I think my handle is the same for all of them, which is at @TheSportsBraPDX.

Shireen: Awesome. So, look her up. If you're in Portland, you must go. And Jenny, again, thank you so much from the Burn It All Down family. We wish you all the best. And I will see you in Portland!

Jenny: Thank you very much, Shireen. This has been awesome. 

Shireen: This episode has been produced by Tressa Versteeg, and Shelby Weldon is our social media manager. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find the link to our merch at our Bonfire store. Burn on, and not out. And thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world. If you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown.