Interview: Jordan Ligons and Haley O'Shaughnessy of Spinsters

Lindsay Gibbs interviews Jordan Ligons and Haley O'Shaughnessy about their basketball and culture podcast, Spinsters. They talk about Jordan and Haley's connections to basketball, Spinsters' origin story and who to look out for in the NBA playoffs.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello, flamethrowers! Lindsay here. I am so excited today to bring you an interview I've been waiting a while to do with two of my favorite people in this weird world [laughs] of sports media: Haley O’Shaughnessy, executive producer at Blue Wire, Jordan Ligons, editor at MOJO, and together they're the co-hosts of one of the best new pods around, Spinsters! Hello!

Jordan: Hello!

Haley: Hello! That's a great introduction.

Lindsay: Thank you. But I actually rushed it because I should say ahead of time that, for our flamethrowers, a reminder that we are taking the month of June off. So, this is not your regular roundtable burn pile episode. This is the first of multiple interview episodes you're going to get this month as we, you know, I'm sure just sipping our margaritas, and we won't be doing anything, you know, I'll come back just very rested, because we all are–

Haley: Take some well deserved rest!

Jordan: That sounds amazing. [laughter]

Lindsay: We're all very good at taking time off and I definitely have no other projects that I'm behind on that I will be working on instead. [laughs]

Haley:  I was going to say, you guys are like a group of professors and academics and there's really I don't think any…You guys have like 20 projects all going on at the same time. So yeah, I don't know if time off is what…But I hope there are margaritas involved.

Lindsay: And all my co-hosts have children and I just don't know how to…Like, I do by far the least, and have no clue. And I'm behind on literally every single aspect of my life. But anyways, we're detouring! So first of all, if you have not subscribed yet, don't pause this episode because then you might forget to come back to it. So just like make a note in your notes app to subscribe to Spinsters. I am legitimately thrilled to be able to talk about how that show came about. But first of all, I just want to get to know you both a little bit better. Let's start with you, Jordan. [laughs] What’s your first basketball memory and like also, how does Derek Fisher fit into your life? I want to ask you lots of Derek Fisher questions! [laughs]

Jordan: No, Lindsay! Didn’t you read the note from my people…? No, I’m just kidding. 

Lindsay: The one thing she will not talk about!

Jordan: The one thing Jordan will not talk about is Derek Fisher. No, I'm just kidding. My first basketball memory…That’s such a great question. It was when I was five years old and it was my first season. We were the Lakers. We had t-shirts instead of jerseys, it was a co-ed team. And this guy on my team would steal the ball for me and I would get so mad. In the middle of the game I went over to my dad. I was like, he keeps stealing the ball from me! Like, I really want to shoot! And I just remember I had bows in my hair because my mom would always make sure that I was still a girly girl. And we would listen to the Love and Basketball soundtrack before every game. That is like my first season, my first basketball memory. And I love that, because I love basketball. 

Lindsay: That's incredible. And so did you grow up in LA as like a Lakers/Sparks fan?

Jordan: No, I'm actually from Sacramento and grew up a Lakers fan, which was a very tough childhood in that Kings, like, when they were in that kind of good era too, which…It was some great rivalries, and any time I would wear Lakers stuff to school, it was always a problem. So, that’s my traumatic childhood story. [laughs]

Lindsay: I was not expecting that. I'll be honest. I really just assumed you were LA though and through. [laughter] But you're also a big NBA fan and you follow the W closely too, which is how I first got to know you. You were doing some WNBA writing at The Ringer, and I was so excited to see any WNBA content. [laughs] I was like, who is this! And so I stalked you, and I was like, oh, yay. Okay. So, how did that love come about? Was it Monarchs games?

Jordan: Oh my gosh. Yes, exactly. From that first team I went on to play in a league, you know, just one of those local leagues. And one of my friends Brianna Burgos, we grew up probably 10 years playing basketball together, and her birthday is at the beginning of May, and every year we'd go to opening night of the Sacramento Monarchs game for her birthday. So I have such good memories at Monarchs games and they won a championship – somehow they got the boot instead of the freaking Kings, who suck. So, I'm still heartbroken about that because the Monarchs were amazing. Ticha Penicheiro, I can still fit my jersey that I have, that I got when I was nine. So, I am a super fan and it breaks my heart that they are not there anymore. But the W has always been a part of my heart because growing up as a women's basketball player, following the Monarchs, I feel like everyone and every little girl should have that experience of watching women play basketball at a high level.

Lindsay: I love that so much. I had this really cool moment last fall when I was randomly back in Greensboro and had my cousin and his little daughter over for dinner, and the WNBA playoffs happened to be on and I put it on in the background, like you do, except it was really gonna be my foreground, I wasn't going to be paying attention to them. And my little cousin looks at me. She goes, “I didn't know, girls could play basketball," and I just like started sobbing. Like, on that level, you know? Like they were on ESPN. And I basically haven't stopped crying since, so, yeah, I know. [laughs] I agree. Haley, what about you? What is your first basketball memory?

Haley: I was thinking while Jordan was answering that, because she has such a nice origin story. I don't really think I have one. It's kind of a bigger thing than basketball where I don't really have…Like, my childhood memories, I feel like I have like four? [laughter] I'm like, did third grade happen? I can remember watching Louisville games with my dad, and there were a lot of Louisville players from like the David Padgett era, and T-Will, which is what I was a little bit older, that I just held so dear and we got so into it. I do distinctly remember when Francisco García went to the league and he went early, he declared early, just crying and asking my dad why he had to leave. And, you know, my dad just sitting me down and explaining the NBA, why people go and they make money.

And so, yeah, it was heartbreaking, but maybe that's the moment that radicalized me into like, oh, okay. So he needs to make money to survive. So I was like trying to, you know, figuring out how this world works, that the NCAA doesn't pay players. So it was all happening for me at that age. As far as my own basketball career, I played. Not well. And in sixth grade the coach was basically like, I don't know if you're going to get any playing time if you come back in seventh grade. [Lindsay laughs] I didn't get any playing time in sixth grade. So, I was a garbage minutes gal, and that's about it. I think I scored one basket. I actually can't even confirm that – I’ll have to ask my mom. That might be something I've told myself to make myself feel better.

But I have watched basketball my entire life, and the NBA was actually more recent than college, a more recent like adoration and obsession, because growing up in Indiana, having family all from Kentucky, both sides, college basketball is pro basketball, but that really transitioned for me with Kevin Durant, and then he was like the gateway drug to everyone else. Kevin Durant, I watched him and I was like, I absolutely need to keep watching him. Then you're introduced to all these other players, and it's kind of what's happening for me now with the W, honestly. Which is cool. 

Jordan: Welcome. 

Lindsay: I love that concept of that's like how I'm going to frame this question next, is like, what was your basketball gateway drug. [laughter] So thank you for giving me, like, I am just unabashedly going to steal that and I'm just letting you know.

Haley: If you ever need a drug reference just call me. 

Lindsay: I do love so much that, just to tell your basketball origin story, I feel like we both got your radicalization moments as well, you know, both with Jordan seeing that the Monarchs had to go, but the King got to stay, even though they were terrible and remain just very irrelevant. Just so irrelevant! But I also wanted to ask you, because you're both younger than me – not crazy younger than me, but you know [laughs] in a generation coming up, but I just wonder why you wanted to get into sports media and kind of how you got into sports media, because I think you were looking at a little bit of a different landscape even than I was 10 years ago when I started accidentally backing into this career – which is what happened. [laughs] But just kind of curious, like, is this something you always wanted to do? Did you always envision this for yourself? Jordan.

Jordan: No, I kind of backed into it as well. I wanted to study journalism, definitely. I knew that from high school, and I went to college with that in mind. But I was going to write about fashion and I was like, so dead set on that. I almost went to like a fashion school, but they didn't have a basketball team, so I chose a school with the basketball team. And I went to school and my professor really like spoke life into me and said, you know, don't pigeonhole yourself. You just want to be a good writer and just write about anything. But then, you know, during my college career I'm playing basketball, I was like, I don't want to write about basketball. Literally my life is basketball, so I want to do anything else.

But I still gravitated towards all sports stories and features on athletes, and even my first job out of college was at a magazine and I did feature stories on professional athletes. I was like, dang, I actually really like this because I feel like I can connect with them in a special way from being an athlete and being able to tell their story in a unique way, and making sure that their story is told, really being able to humanize them beyond their athletics, because your identity is more than you being an athlete. So I felt that connection, and while I was working at the magazine, it wasn't working out. I saw there was an opening at The Ringer, and I just went for it! I was like, you know what, if this is real and I want to do sports, then let's try it. And the rest is history. It's been so fun so far. [laughs] 

Lindsay: That's good. You didn't talk yourself out of the job before you got it, before you went in for it, which is, you know, the thing we have to tell ourselves and everyone.

Jordan: Definitely.

Lindsay: Haley, what about you? Is this always where you envisioned yourself?

Haley: No, it's really not. I think it was like seventh grade, maybe a little bit younger. I just decided, okay, I want to be a writer. But I thought fiction, like, I was going to write novels or short stories or something – that is still the end goal, so if you're a book publisher, let's talk. But I was in high school, I've always loved sports, I was thinking about what college am I going to go to, what degree? You know, you just have to decide everything so fast. And IU had a great journalism school, and so I started thinking, well, maybe it’s journalism that I'll do. Then I didn't end up going to IU. I went to Louisville where my parents went, where my mom played soccer. She was the keeper, and my dad taught. And I was like, okay I'll go to Louisville. They don't have journalism. That's fine. I'll just figure it out, and I love sports, sports seems like it'd be fun.

So, you know, it's funny because actually at that time, then once I said I'll do sports journalism, then it seemed like everyone in my life, well, every man in my life was like, oh, you should do the Erin Andrews thing. You should do the Sam Ponder thing. And so I started thinking like, well, maybe I should do that thing. And then it took me like maybe half an internship of this ESPN internship where I to be on camera. I was like, this is never what I wanted. [laughs] I never wanted to do this. And I also didn't want to lean that hard into it sports, like, sports were fun, but I always wanted it to be kind of like a lens of what Jordan was saying. Even when I was 18, 19, 20, I saw this opportunity in sports media where I was reading things and I was like, everything kind of feels the same and things don't really vary that much. The best sportswriters are able to find an exception in this field, which is that they see it as more than just sports and they can take context from everywhere, you know, and they read things outside of sports, they use references that are not in sports to explain sports.

And so that's where Jordan and I also really connect and where we feel this passion to make this show, is that we both want sports to be more because it can be more interesting. It can be more humanizing. It can be smarter, you know, just by using that outside context. So, no, I didn't want to do sports media at first. I still think it's interesting to consider myself media, although I guess at this point it's a little delusional. I have a sports podcast and was a basketball writer for five years before that. But it is still interesting to hear that I'm in sports media. You were like, “you're in sports media” and I was like, oh, oh, I am. Okay. Yes. But no, it was not the original goal.

Lindsay: I totally understand that. [laughs] You know, you were talking about how it can be different, and seeing the need for something different. And that's funny, because I remember…I listened to a lot of sports podcasts, especially when I was at ThinkProgress as a sports reporter because I kinda needed to know what was going on and all these different sports, just in case like there was a story I needed to jump in on, but also because I would randomly be on, you know, people would have me on to talk about a social issue in sports and then randomly be like, “So, who's gonna win this game?” or something, you know? And I would have to just be like, ahhhh, you know? So, I just really tried to stay as up to date on everything in the sports world, and I did that through listening to a lot of podcasts. So I was listening to a lot of The Ringer NBA podcasts and I remember getting so excited when I would hear Haley's voice come on. I think I DM’d you being like, why aren't you on more!? Like, this is so good, because it was clear, like, you were very, very knowledgeable about sports, you knew that they mattered, but you also didn't take it too seriously. That's a really important balance, you had fun with it. And I really liked that. So, we'll fast forward. I mean, Haley, why did you make that decision, you know, to depart from The Ringer where you said you'd been for five years and to start with Blue Wire? And this is before Spinsters existed. 

Haley: It is before. Yeah. That was born after the fact. Well, first of all, thank you for saying that about the, you know, liking to listen or whatever. That's just so nice. And not taking it too seriously…That’s another thing I really liked about co-hosting with Jordan is that she'll regularly, you know, while we're recording and while we're not recording, be like, “This is just a game.” Like, it’s just a game, you know what I mean? When people take it a little bit too seriously, or the aspects of it that shouldn't be taken seriously. What was appealing to me about Blue Wire was that I had this meeting with Peter Moses and he was basically like, “All the things that you feel like you can't talk about, or that sports media maybe has said this shouldn't be talked about, we want you to talk about them.”

And he also really seemed like he wanted some to hire someone so they could have creative autonomy, and he didn't seem like he wanted to just bring in like quote unquote “talent.” He wanted to bring in someone who would kind of inform the taste of a growing company – and those are his words, not mine, because I don't want to sound self-important! But that was very cool to me because just being a woman, just existing as a woman, but also especially in media or in anything front-facing, it's not always your experience that people care about what you say or what your opinions are as much as the fact that you just need to have them to exist in that job. So, really hearing this guy say I want you to come in and taste make, and I want you to come in and have this podcast, and I want to hear what you want this podcast to be, and I want to fund it, and believing it and seeing on his face that he meant it, was really cool.

I was like, I didn't know that this opportunity would come for me at 27. I think I was even 26 at the time. So, instantly I was inspired. And the thing about The Ringer is that I loved my time there. Like, everyone there was so helpful, so nice, so encouraging, and I wouldn't be able to do the things that at Blue Wire we're doing now without The Ringer. Shoutout to Craig Gaines, who taught me how to be a fact checker and would constantly DM me like, hey, this grammar thing that you wrote, this is why it's incorrect, and now I use it in my every day. And Chris Ryan, who helped me shape stories, I wouldn't be able to do these narrative podcasts without him, or even just come up with the stories or the narrative arcs of smaller things.

Like, thinking critically does not come naturally. It really has to be a skill that's developed. You have to be a curious person. You have to be curious and care enough to want to execute things, and thoughtfully. So, I absolutely loved my time at The Ringer and I'm really glad that it happened, but eventually it's just time to step out. You know, that's just growth. You have to eventually move on from things and think to grow more. And that's not just at workplaces, that's at all aspects of life. So, it was hard, because you're changing something. I felt at the end a little bit guilty too, because I was just waiting tables when Mallory Rubin called me and was like, hey, would you like to come to The Ringer? And it was really weird, and I didn't think that I was even gonna end up doing journalism after I graduated.

So, it was a hard transition, I think, because of that, because it was all I'd known as a professional I guess in this space or any space really, that the only other job I'd ever had was waiting tables. But Blue Wire was exciting to me, like really, really exciting. I think that's why when I called Jordan and tried to sell her on it, I talked for like 40 minutes and then waited for an answer. And she was also excited about it, which was great. But I mean, I think you probably had that experience too, Lindsay, to some degree of them being like, this is what we care about, this is what we want to show we care about, and this is how we're going to show you we care about it.

Not to be all company woman, but so far it's been extremely true. You know, we get this chance to make this show, we have this budget to bring in our friends and people we want to be our friends, these amazing contributors who are just telling stories that we couldn't tell or that we want to tell or that we want to be heard that aren't necessarily just strictly about the NBA. So yeah, it's been wonderful. It's been a fun opportunity so far, and I'm glad that Peter and I had that initial meeting.

Lindsay: I love this so much. So, I should, you know, editors note here that we are on the Blue Wire podcast network as well, Burn It All Down is, but we're an editorially independent addition to the Blue Wire podcast network. So you know, they have no control over our content, and I just want to say that. [laughs]

Haley: Nope, this is sponcon! 

Lindsay: This is not sponcon, I promise!

Haley: I've been brought on…This is actually an ad break.

Lindsay: It did start sounding a little bit like an ad break. [laughs]

Haley: Well, just got the okay to do this story yesterday, so I'm feeling very like my heart is very warm right now toward them. So, good timing for Blue Wire.

Lindsay: We love Blue Wire too. We've had great experiences with them. You know, just, we like some transparency.

Haley: There’s like a ticker on the lower left: “Lindsay Gibbs says she hates everything.” [laughter]

Lindsay: So, you get a chance at Blue Wire to not only kind of shape their vision, but they want you to be on a basketball podcast. So, how does it go from, hey Haley, do a basketball podcast for us, to what Spinsters is? How did you go about conceiving that? How did you reach out to Jordan? And then Jordan, we’ll go to you.

Haley: Yeah. At first it was just pitched as like, we want you to contribute to narrative podcasts and in some way pitch them, host them, et cetera. And then you'll have this conversational basketball podcast that'll go like twice a week or something. And then I was working with Peter and John Yales, and John and I really have a lot in common in terms of like wanting to share stories – obviously, he's head of narrative – and looking at sports a bit outside of sports. Peter and I were really focused on how do we make this different? And at first it was like, well, I'm not going to have a male co-host, so is that just different enough? Because not to say it doesn't exist in sports, obviously – look at the podcast we’re on! But it doesn't exist enough at like a really high exposure level, I guess?

So we were like, well, that'll make it different. Then maybe we'll talk about a little outside of the NBA. And then it just all of a sudden we were like, well, what if we told these stories? What if we tried this thing? What if we did this in between? What if there was reporting? And one day Peter said, what if this is like an audio magazine? And sometimes you have blogs and sometimes you have features and sometimes you have things that you dive into and sometimes you have oral histories, which is kind of a weird thing to say, like, being a podcast, you know everything's kind of an oral history. And that really sparked the idea of let's just try to do this and if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn’t. And TBD on that.

As with Jordan, I was just reaching out to people, friends who I knew would like give me an half an hour of their time so I could practice trying to be on a podcast, because my only experience prior was on Heat Check and I was very much just someone that John could throw to and I could say, you know, my 30 seconds of things, and it was very comfortable, and it's not as comfortable being a host. So, I asked Jordan for some of her time and we had a great conversation, and after the conversation I just told Peter, like, I actually think that we should try to make her the co-host and he listened to it and John listened to it and they all agreed. So, then I called her and she said yes, thank god.

Lindsay: Jordan, tell us your perspective. You had left The Ringer to go work at MOJO, which if you want to describe what you do there and everything, but it seemed like you were a little bit out of the content creating media journalism bubble a little bit. How did Hailey, I guess, bring you back in? 

Jordan: Yeah, so, I was at MOJO for a month when Haley called me. I just started there, I'd left The Ringer, and MOJO is a startup and we just launched in March and it's a youth sports app that is helping coaches plan their practices to bring the magic and the fun back to you sports. So, me being an athlete and growing up in that space, that really spoke to me, and to be able to write and talk to professional athletes about their youth sports experience and make sure coaches continue to foster young athletes into being better humans. So, that’s what I'm passionate about. I'm so happy I’m working there. And yeah, so I was a month in. Haley asked me to do this, and let me say, she said no one was going to hear it and it was just for practice. And then she calls me after and she was like, hey, everybody listened to this and we love it! [laughter]

I was like, okay…! But it was such a blessing because I feel like I was able to be natural and free and just us talking. So, maybe if she would have told me like, oh yeah, by the way, the two highest people at Blue Wire are going to hear this after, who knows if I would've been as natural or free to talk. So, I hope that we keep that vibe of just two friends talking, and that's, that's what we want to do. But joining this was a great, great experience and I'm so happy I did. It's just one of those little nuggets in life that don't come up to you as often, and I just had to say yes. And I'm so happy I did because it's been a blast so far. 

Lindsay: Had you done any podcasting really before this? I know I had you on an episode of the Locked On women's basketball podcast with Locked On network, and I remember having Jordan on, but had you done any podcasting other than that? Was that something you were interested in? 

Jordan: Yeah. So, going to The Ringer, you know, podcasts are everywhere. And I was like, oh, I should probably get into this because this is what the cool kids are doing. So, let's figure out if you're good at this. I really just started off going on Tea Time, which is on The Ringer and Spotify where it's all pop culture. And it was so fun because it is like you're just talking to your friends and I like to talk. So I was like, okay, maybe I could do this. And then when I really was like, you know what, you need more reps. Like, that was one thing at The Ringer. There's a lot of great people who are really great.

So, sometimes getting those reps are really hard. I just put it out on Twitter. I said, who wants me on their podcast to talk about the WNBA playoffs? I got probably like 10 people responding, and I was like one after another after another after another, just to try to get those reps, to get more comfortable on a microphone, and talking about something I'm passionate about, which is the WNBA. And it was fun. I was like, you know what? I think I could do this because I like it, I like talking about basketball. It's different than writing, but it is still storytelling. So, I wanted to branch off and try something different. And that's what happened.

Haley: And Jordan's also so naturally good at it. She speaks in complete sentences. [laughter] Whereas I…There’s this book I read earlier in the year, The Translators Bride, and the first chapter was one sentence and it was probably like 12 pages and that is how I speak. So, I'm really, really glad that she's so naturally good at it because it's a wonderful balance. But yeah, I mean, you were never on a show that was your own, yet you came into it so fully developed already. If you had told me that at the beginning, I probably wouldn't have believed it. I'm sure that anyone who's heard our show wouldn't believe that.

Jordan: Well, shoutout to Twitter for giving me my practice. [laughs] 

Lindsay: Yeah. You know, I think with both of you, it's so interesting because I'm asked a lot, like, how do you make it in this business? Even though I don't know what that means. [laughs] Like, if it means support yourself fully or whatever. I'm always like, focus on what you bring the other people aren't bringing, right? Like, see the holes and find ways to fill those gaps yourself and with your knowledge. I think that's so much what you both have individually done and what Spinsters brings. So, let's go back to the show. So first of all, it was the spotlight podcast on iTunes. It reached number one in sports above – get this, Burn It All Down listeners, there was a time, I don't know if it currently is, but it’s screenshotted in history, so it happened – where it was topping the Bill Simmons podcast and the Barstool podcast I can't remember the name of…Pardon My Take. So it was Jordan and Haley, number one on top of those on the iTunes charts, which just feels like a victory for all of us. I'm not gonna lie. So, it's obviously been going well, but what are your favorite things that you've done with the show? 

Haley: Ooh. Jordan, do you want to go first?

Jordan: Oh yeah, go first, Haley.

Haley: I have so many. I was like, I have loved anything that requires a lot of research is my thing. We have a researcher now who works on not just our show, on a bunch of things. I'm envious of her job because I love looking into things, I love like grasping onto something and then seeing how far it will go. So the stories that we've done where it's something that we've thought of, and I've kind of gone down this rabbit hole and have talked to people on the side or in official interviews on recording, those have been my favorite because that's like a dream, like, I'm being funded to do this, you know? And that was also an extension of what I knew I'd miss most from writing was writing, obviously. So, you kind of do have to develop a script in your mind, like, what's the story going to be? How are we going to communicate it? Where will this interview fit in? 

You are essentially crafting a feature the same as you would if you're writing it. And so that really fulfilled this thing I thought was going to be out of my life for a little bit, and I've really, really enjoyed that, and I've really enjoyed getting to talk to the people we've talked to. Charles Grantham is one. He used to be the director of the players union in the 90s, and we've talked a lot for multiple stories and just outside of it and we've talked about, like, now he's really involved in helping NCAA players gain the rights they should have. It's just the people I've met, it's been really, really cool doing those stories. So that's probably my favorite part. 

Jordan: I think my favorite part going off of that is having my aunt Shirleen be on a podcast because that just made my whole life. Anyone in my family who knows aunt Shirleen knows she is the number one basketball fan that I've ever met – I think she's 85. And she's just a gem. So to be able to have her on a podcast talking basketball was my life goal that I didn't even know was my life goal. So, that was wonderful. We'll probably have to bring her back once her Celtics lose. Sorry, aunt Shirleen. Hope she doesn't hear this! [laughs]

Lindsay: I think by the time this is published, they’ll be out. [laughs]

Haley: Yeah. Yeah. They might take themselves out before then. Sorry.

Jordan: And I would say too, just going off of what Haley said, the storytelling, being able to be a part of the Tamika Catchings story with Nia Symone and why women aren't dunking with Natalie Weiner, like, those stories are so good and exactly what we were saying before, the ones that aren't being told. They're really answering our curiosities of these people or of this topic, and to be able to explore those more in a wonderful, edited audio format, where you're really lost in this story is such a cool experience to be a part of on the back end. And then to hear it, I get so excited all over again, because I'm like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what we had in our mind. So, it’s been wonderful and like we were talking about, it's new to both of us, but this is just a different type of journalism that is still impactful and still important. So, so happy to be a part of it, and can't wait for our future stories coming up because they're going to be great. 

Haley: I'll also add on top of that, that the autonomy to make both of those decisions is probably huge for both of us, because we were essentially like, who can we bring on? And that means varying from somebody who's maybe not a sports reporter who will tell a sports story, which is something we have going on right now and I'm super excited about in the making, and what stories we want to tell. But also that goes down to also Jordan's aunt Shirleen – I don't know for sure, like, I can't say that I know of another podcast production team where the host didn't have creative autonomy would want that, but then it happened and it was great. So, having the opportunity to say no, we know that these things would be good, or at least we want the chance to see if they would work, and having the opportunity even to fail is nice.

Jordan: Yeah.

Lindsay: Absolutely. And the great thing about podcasting I've found is it feels a little bit less like…In writing, it's like, you're always writing the next article, right? I don't know, the words are written there just for everybody to see. [laughs] There's something about podcasting where it's just like, it's out there, and then you move on to the next thing. You know what I mean? 

Haley: Yes! It's nice. Yeah. It's definitely nice. Yeah. 

Lindsay: All right, well, look, I was going to ask you all  these NBA playoffs questions, and then you two are way more interesting to me than the NBA playoffs, apparently, so I didn’t. I’ll finish this with bringing it back, you know, we are in the middle of NBA playoffs right now. We're in the middle of the first round. By the time this airs on Tuesday there might be one or two teams already through to the second round, but what are your western conference finals? What's your Eastern conference finals predictions? And then who's your favorite player, one or two players that to watch that maybe you're not allowed to say like LeBron or Kevin Durant, you know? Maybe like everyone else isn't isn't watching, right?

Haley: Cameron Payne!

Lindsay: Okay! All right. And for people who don't know, who does Payne play for?

Haley: He’s a member of the Phoenix Suns, and unfortunately I do not think that they are going to advance, but fortunately for Jordan, because she's the Lakers fan. 

Jordan: Yes!

Lindsay: So get on that, people. 

Haley: He’s very fun. There’s actually a lot of up and comers. It's a good playoff year if you're just interested in, you know, attaching yourself to players who are not superstars, but it's also a good year for if you want to attach yourself to new superstars, Luka Dončić, my god. I keep waiting for it to end because it's like, oh, it can't be every night that a team that's built on a superstar and then there's a tier below that's empty and then there's a tier below that and there's like three role players they depend on it. It can't work every night. I genuinely do think it's going to work every night against the Clippers. They just can't contain him. It's weird to say a team with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George can't contain somebody, but they can't. Are they gonna make it out of the west? I just can't really rationalize that in my head. They don't have nearly enough. Yeah. Jordan’s shaking her head. I don't know how far they'll go, but I do know that they'll make it out of that play. So that's a long-winded answer of saying there's also a middle tier of maybe not the names that like your grandma would know necessarily, but that she would like to know. So, yeah. That's where Luka fits in.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think Luka is still new enough that we can say like, watch Luka, like, please.

Haley: Because he right now, he's having like what Jamal Murray had last year. I mean, Luka also had great performances last year, last playoff. So what am I saying? But like, he's the must-watch for me.

Lindsay: So, who's coming out of the west?

Haley: See, I got to keep that till…I’m like, who is coming out of the west!? Because I just watched last night and I was like, damn.

Jordan: I really don't know.

Haley: It’s tough. I'll say who's coming out of the east, and then I'll regret it. I think it's the Bucks. They just look so good. Like, granted, Miami is worse than last year. So, for anyone who doesn't know, the Bucks and the Heat played last year as well, and the Heat we're like, okay, the Bucks, this is adorable, but like we don't have time for this. They went on to the finals, and this year it's just so different. The Heat are worse, but the Bucks are so much better. They look so much better. And it seems like a stable better. And so I think it's an unpopular answer to say that they're coming out because the Nets are the Nets and the Nets have Kyrie, they have Harden, they have KD, and maybe I'll change my mind about this once I see them playing someone other than just, you know, five bodies. [laughter] No offense.

Lindsay: I really hope aunt Shirleen doesn't listen to this. [laughs]

Haley: We’ll delete her podcast app for the day. But maybe once I see them against a different opponent I'll feel differently. I'm not really concerned about the fact that they haven't played a lot together this year because individually they're so wonderful. It's not really a Clippers-esque 2019/20 problem. But I really like the Bucks right now. I'm really feeling good about them.

Lindsay: We are stans of the Holiday family here on this podcast. We really root for Lauren Holiday's husband, and he has been a really great addition to that team. So, it’s his time to bring a trophy to the family.

Haley: Carry your weight! [laughter] Carry your weight, man. No, I love him. I wrote a profile on him and I got to spend time with Lauren Holiday, which is like, as you know, I played soccer…Yes, I was writing about him, but I was talking to her. So, that was wonderful. And they're a wonderful family, and he's great, and he's also good on the court, which is something that a lot of people have a hard time admitting. So, Jordan, yes.

Lindsay: And he's a little bit underrated. And we liked like the underrated ones

Haley: He is underrated!

Lindsay: Like, the ones who weren’t the top draft pick. He hasn't been the most hyped, right? He’s not the most, you know, and those are the players we love to hype. All right, Jordan? Take us home here.

Jordan: So my must player to watch is Ja Morant. He has been electrifying, and we already knew this, but seeing him in the playoffs, in his first playoffs ever, and it's like, whoa, it looks like you live here. Like, you are rising to the occasion, not scared of the spotlight. I wish he had a little more help on his team, but he is so fun to watch and I feel like the Memphis series is must-watch TV. Are they going to make it out of it? Only god knows. But I like watching him and I'm going to actually miss watching him when they get out of the playoffs, like, I'm going to say, dang, I wish Ja Morant was playing.

I haven’t had that feeling, you know…Well, this is kind of a big statement, but watching Kobe and when Kobe was out of the playoffs, I would say I miss watching Kobe play basketball. And I feel like Ja is getting to that point because he is so exciting and so fun to watch. I'm very surprised that you said the Bucks are coming out of the east, but I'll ride that wave. I was having this conversation of like, is Miami worse or are the Bucks better? Because Miami didn't change anything. And the Bucks actually made changes. So, I'm happy for them. I'm also repenting for my Khris Middleton slander earlier in the season. So I'm like, to make it up to him going to say that they're going to get out of the east. Out of the west, I want to say my Lakers. We have a long way to go. It's not going to be the Clippers. That's all I care about.

Haley: Well, I don't think it's unreasonable. It's not unreasonable because you have two known commodities there. You know what two of those players can be. If you look down the west, I'm just gonna do this real quick because I know we're running out of time. Jazz, no, I don't believe in them. Suns, I can't believe in the Suns without a healthy Chris Paul, he's not healthy right now even if he says he is. Nuggets, missing their second best player, Jokić is fantastic. He's my MVP. He's the MVP. Do they have enough? I don't know. I'm not convinced. Clippers, no. Mavericks, again…It just seems like such a long shot. They don't even have a second best player who's not in a third tier of like the role model…The role player tier!Definitely not role models on the maps there.

The Blazers, same as the Nuggets. I'm like, eh, I just don't believe in it enough, and I would take Jokić over them. And then you have the Lakers. Well, I didn't include the Grizzlies in this. I don't think they're escaping that round, and if they do, it would be a fluke. It's the same as the Mavs to me where it's like, yeah, not that it's a fluke, but it's like, you've done this. I don't think you have what it takes to go further, which is not a knock on them. So, the Lakers are not a bad option. Yeah, they're the seventh seed–

Jordan: I’ll take it.

Haley: They have LeBron and AD, that's probably the strongest pairing. It's definitely the strongest pairing that there is in the western conference. 

Lindsay: This feels easier this year.

Haley: Right? The east is like a tighter–

Lindsay: Like, as you're going through the names, I'm like, oh, yeah, these are…And we can go back to what I talked about on your podcast, they only did get away with the seedings. We could have some better conferences.

Haley: My dad has been listening to me lecture since then about how we should change the playoffs, like, so much. And I should also say we also did not bring up the Sixers in the Bucks/Nets, yes. So, this the east is legitimately way better. They're better at the top than the west are, currently.

Lindsay: And I just need to say, because we're in a safe space here, that I had a moment – I don't watch the Memphis Grizzlies much, you know, I'm sorry, I just don’t – and I hadn't really seen Ja Morant in a couple of years. [laughs] Wow. He looks great!

Haley: Right!

Lindsay: I was like, genuinely, freeze frame! Like, the ponytail–

Haley: The hair is doing things for him.

Lindsay: The tattoos, he’s bulked up. That was my first time in a while of having…I mean, of course all these NBA players, very attractive, all WNBA players, very attractive. You know what I mean? They're all hot people, but where I was like, oh, we've had a glow up and we are ready for this stage, and I'm here for it. So, if you haven't checked out Ja Morant in a while, there’s definitely a swagger there and it’s all working.

Haley: Extremely adorable.

Lindsay: It's all working. Okay, well, go to all of your favorite podcast apps and subscribe to Spinsters on all of them. And if you're not already subscribing to Burn It All Down, subscribe to Burn It All Down! And Haley and Jordan, where can they follow you on social?

Haley: I’m @HaleyOSomething

Lindsay: And literally it's O’Something, that's not…It’s literally O’something.

Haley: Yeah.

Jordan: And I’m@_JordanLigons. 

Lindsay: Well, thank you both so, so much, this was so fun and so overdue and we'll have to have you back soon.

Haley: Thanks for having us!

Jordan: Thanks, Lindsay! We love you.