Interview: Lisa Zimouche, Freestyle Footballer
Shireen chats with the freestyle footballer phenom Lisa Zimouche on her sport, her global influence, and why she feels freestyle can open up football for racialized and Muslim women.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hello flamethrowers, Shireen here. Bonjour tout le monde! I am so excited today. You can’t see me smiling ear to ear, but I am. I have one of my favorite Instagram/Twitter followers, one of my favorite athletes on the show today: I am so excited to have Lisa Zimouche here! Hello, Lisa. Bonjour!
Lisa: Bonjour! I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you.
Shireen: I’ve been wanting to have you on the show for a really long time. For those of you who don’t know Lisa, I’ll tell you about her. She’s a pioneer of freestyle football – yes, freestyle football! She started competing at the age of 13 and was part of the Red Bull street world final in 2012 where she earned a bronze medal, and then she won the world female Panna championship in 2014. She’s incredibly popular on social media with more than 3.5 million followers across all of her channels, which are engaging and wonderful. You have her doing tricks in ball gowns and heels, on beaches, in parking lots, on streets. My favorite part about her is undoubtedly that she nutmegs men all the time, and I love everything about that. Thanks to freestyle she’s had a chance to meet and interact and perform with athletes and artists such as Usain Bolt, Paul Pogba, Ronaldo, Drake, and Major Lazer. She comes to us from Paris, France. Hello!
Lisa: Hello, hello, hello! Nice introduction, thank you! [laughs]
Shireen: So, I have so many questions for you, and I want to talk about first of all, how did this begin? Did this begin with you in your room with a ball? Did you play when you were younger? How did this journey come to be?
Lisa: So, I come from a neighborhood where we play football all the time…I’m gonna say football! [laughs] We play football all the time, since forever, and I remember at 7 years old my mom was like, “You should play on a team!” and I was like, okay, let’s try it. I was the only girl on that team, and I was playing traditional football. Then at 10 years old I started playing freestyle, and that was the perfect mix between what I loved: football and arts, like music and dance and everything. I have sisters that are doing music and dance, so that was the perfect mix, and I was doing both at the same time. So, I was playing football on a team and I was playing freestyle, I was traveling with freestyle. Then I went to the PSG team u-16, and yeah, it was just natural. I come from a north African family where we just follow football and we’re just big fans of Zinedine Zidane and the French national team and the Algerian national team. So, yeah, I think it's just natural.
Shireen: Yeah, I think that it’s in your veins and your blood, absolutely. You know, very much the Fennecs in everything, and following that football from that particular stance. I also really love that your mom was the one that said you should get into this because you clearly loved it so much. I also want you to talk to me about saying you were playing freestyle, because a lot of our listeners maybe aren’t familiar with freestyle football. When you say play, explain the level of practice that you have to do to be as good as you are – because some people just think you’re outside juggling a ball. But you're committed to this. Tell us about the training for this.
Lisa: So, when you see stuff on social media, that’s 15 seconds out of 4 hours of practice, usually. So, yeah, you have to be passionate. When you start playing freestyle, if you see stuff on social media and you think, “Okay, I’m going to try this and make it in 1 hour,” no, that’s not the case. You should be passionate. So, when I started playing freestyle I started having 4 hours of practice a day because I couldn’t see the hours, so it was just natural for me. I just wanted to do my tricks, and as long as I cannot make it I’m going to practice and practice and practice. So, I was at school, I was playing freestyle and I was practicing with my team at the same time, so it was a pretty busy schedule all the time. So yes, you have to practice. There's absolutely no secrets. A lot of people expect to do it in a week, but then when they realize it takes a lot then they give up, and that’s where the passion comes first. When I’m passionate about something I don’t give up.
Shireen: That’s amazing. So, what position did you play when you were with PSG u-16?
Lisa: I played 6, you know?
Shireen: [laughs] Of course you did!
Lisa: Yeah, I was running, running!
Shireen: Of course you did. So, at what point did you transition from proper football to freestyle? Or do you still play? I mean, you’re too busy now, I’m sure.
Lisa: I’m fully focused on freestyle, but sometimes I play with friends 5 and 5. But I chose freestyle at the age of 16, 17. So, I was at PSG but I knew that I wanted to focus on freestyle, but I stayed at PSG because it gave me that discipline that in freestyle we absolutely don't have.
Shireen: Yeah.
Lisa: We don’t learn how to stay fit and to eat healthy, and when I was at PSG I had to have this discipline and that’s why I stayed at Paris Saint-Germain. But I knew when I was there that I wanted to focus on freestyle right away.
Shireen: So, part of what I’m interested in is that this is an individual sport, so what does competition look like? Because you’re training yourself – did you have a coach? Did you have someone you trained with? Because it can get pretty lonely if you go from a team sport to focusing on an individual one. What was that like for you?
Lisa: That’s different, that’s so different. I like to be lonely and I like to choose what I’m practicing or when I’m practicing, but at the same time to have a coach is the best, you know? To have someone to push yourself, that’s the best. But when I started I had nobody. I had only…I was with a lot of friends who were playing freestyle, so we pushed ourselves all the time, but I had no coach. The competition was a battle competition, so a hip-hop battle competition, 1v1, 30 seconds. You do your tricks for 30 seconds, the opponent does their tricks, and then we have 3 rounds and then we have judges who choose the winner. So, that’s a freestyle juggling competition, and for nutmeg competitions that’s in a cage like UFC. You go in the cage and you have 3 minutes; the one who scores more or the one who nutmegs the opponent wins.
Shireen: So, what does the scene for women look like as opposed to the scene for men? Is this something that's fairly accessible to women, or is it dominated by men?
Lisa: So, when I started playing freestyle it was mostly men in competition. I remember we were just 8 women doing the world competition.
Shireen: In the world there was only 8 women?!
Lisa: Yeah, we were only 8, and then it started to get bigger. I think social media had a big big impact on that. Then there's so many women right now practicing and playing freestyle and doing competitions. Like, I used to know everyone! All the girls I used know them, and now [Shireen laughs] I know lots but not everyone, and that’s a good thing. It’s getting bigger, the level is getting better. But there’s still work to do, you know, like all women’s sports.
Shireen: Of course. I think that’s so wonderful that there are people that obviously you don’t know, but do you get recognized when you go out?
Lisa: Sometimes, yes. Sometimes it happens. [Shireen laughs] When they see my being like, natural, no one comes and bothers me because they just see me on the street, just walking with my friends. So, that’s good.
Shireen: So, do you walk around all the time avec ton ballon? With you ball? Are you always with your ball? Is it like your main accessory?
Lisa: That’s what people expect me to be like, always with my ball. So, most of the time if I go practice, if I go make a video in the street, yes, you’ll find me with my ball of course. But sometimes I just have my purse and that’s it. [laughs] Sometimes I like to be good at the ball and just walking and chilling with my friends, going to restaurants. But yeah, I have my ball. I should give balls to people.
Shireen: Sign them and give them for…You could do that. People would love to have it. I want one! So, I have a question for you. You know, growing up in a north African family in France, the politics of France and football are very complicated. Some of the greatest stars that you’ve mentioned, you’ve got Louisa Nécib, you’ve got these incredible people, you’ve got Zinedine Zidane that you mentioned, so many that are so formidable with the history of football. What is it like dynamic-wise? Is the politics so intense as well for freestyle football – and who actually governs you? Does the FFF govern freestyle football in France? Do you have an organization that looks over? Is it as complex?
Lisa: So, this is complex. We don’t have any organization around freestyle. This is an urban discipline, it’s like dance. There’s no federation, there’s nothing. So, there’s no rules, basically. If you wear the hijab and you want to freestyle, just go and that’s fine. I think in freestyle we allow everything, everyone, and that’s good. But right now, yeah, the vibe, the atmosphere in France and around football…As a North African, that’s tough. I used to play on a team, a girl’s team, where one of the girls was wearing the hijab. She couldn’t play in completion, you know? She could play the friendly game, but competitions she couldn’t, and I don’t get it.
I’m trying to fight. I think we have to fight to allow women to play football. I’m a freestyler but I’m still in the football industry and I’m trying to take part in this fight, so that’s sad that that’s work to do in France – not only in football, I think, even in life in this country. That’s tough if you’re Muslim, a woman of color, and wearing a hijab in France right now, that’s just a lot. You have to be mentally prepared to take all the criticism.
Shireen: I love what you said about freestyle, the sport not having these kind of restrictions, because I think that’s really important. You shared a video a couple weeks or months ago of these little girls just watching you and you encouraging them, and that was so important because when people see you, your name or what you look like, you look like so many people that are there and you’re killing it in this sport and you’re making it accessible, which is so important because it is so sad – I didn’t know you had a teammate like that, but it can be so…I mean, that’s happened to me in my experience. I wasn’t allowed to play because I started to wear hijab. But it’s very sad, and it’s frustrating. I mean, sport is supposed to be something that everybody participates in. This alternative of engaging in playing freestyle is a great opportunity. I just hope that they don’t create an association where they start to make rules, because that’s what happens: men decide to have a committee, and association. [laughs]
Lisa: Yeah, I really hope that it won’t happen, like, certainly someone will tell the girls yeah, you can wear that or you can be like that. I really hope…And I don’t think it’s going to happen because there’s no federation, so if I want to create a competition by myself I can, and if I want to allow anyone to compete I will. I think that’s good with freestyle.
Shireen: Well, I think we should make a rule that if there is a federation then you should be president of it, and then that’s fine. Then we can have a federation, as long as you are the president then I’m okay with that.
Lisa: Let’s do this. [laughs] Let’s do this.
Shireen: What I love about what you do and the optics and the video of you is that you are literally wearing whatever you want, that’s part of the reason why I love what you do so much. One of my favorite videos of you, you’re in a boutique for a dress, like a gown, and you’re juggling.
I loved that because you literally can do this sport and engage with the practice, obviously and the training, but your very image is saying you can wear what you want and be who you are and do this sport – which I think we don’t hear enough of in the football world. So, I think you’re fabulous, and I want everybody to follow you.
Lisa: Thank you. I like to be…Yeah, I like to show that whatever dress you want it to be, I can do it with a ball no matter what. In heels, barefoot, or at the beach like you said. I think everyone can relate, you know? [laughs] Honestly that video, I didn’t want to post it. I don’t know why. I thought the quality wasn’t good enough, I’m hard on myself. So, I found the quality not good enough, and I asked my sister and she was like, “You should post it.” I had nothing else to post, so I was like, [sighs] let’s post it. So I’m glad you like it.
Shireen: I loved it. So, how often do you…Do you have a business plan about how you post, what you do? Do you have an idea, a schedule based on where you’ll be traveling and all that stuff? How does the business side of this work?
Lisa: So, yeah, I wanna be consistent in what I’m doing, so when I’m on social media I want to be consistent but I don’t wanna put pressure on myself. What I used to do a lot, I used to be like, okay, I need to post, I need views, I need…But it’s two years now that I’m just like, okay, post whatever you want. If you find it cool then post it. If it works that’s good, if it doesn’t well, you like what you’re posting so that’s what’s important. But yeah, being consistent is the key, I think, just to let people know I’m still alive. [laughter] And yeah, right now with COVID that's one of the only ways to share what I’m doing. So, that’s my business. But usually without COVID I’m traveling, I’m doing stuff, I’m doing shows and workshops, I’m meeting people, I’m working with brands, shooting videos. But yeah, right now social media is the main thing.
Shireen: So, what’s your favorite song to play to, to juggle to? To do your tricks to?
Lisa: Favorite song to juggle to…Oh, I have too many songs that I love. But one of the first that brought me that energy was Run the World by Beyoncé. When I was 13 years old when she dropped that song I was like, damn! [laughs] I like it! And I felt that energy that I needed to do my skills, so that’s one of the songs that comes to my mind.
Shireen: Amazing. Run the world, indeed. Okay, so, some fun questions for you: favorite food, street food?
Lisa: Favorite food…Asian food. I’m a big Asian food fan, yeah.
Shireen: Amazing, okay.
Lisa: And of course I’m north African so I wanna say my mom’s food is the best.
Shireen: Yeah. [laughter]
Lisa: Couscous and chorba and everything. That’s the best. Asian foods, I like it too.
Shireen: I love that.
Lisa: Yeah.
Shireen: That’s awesome. Who's your favorite footballer?
Lisa: Okay, male I’d say Verratti, from PSG. Right now that’s my favorite one. And female: Marta from Brazil.
Shireen: Ohh! Of course! Absolutely. Do you have a favorite ball or a lucky ball?
Lisa: So, I change balls a lot, all the time. But right now that’s a freestyle brand, Monta, from the Netherlands, that I use a lot.
Shireen: Do you match the balls to your outfits?
Lisa: Eh, depends, sometimes. [Shireen laughs] I have a lot of colors – I have red, blue, white. So I’m trying to match my outfit first and then I see the ball, and if it matches that’s perfect.
Shireen: How many do you have in your collection of footballs?
Lisa: Oh, well, I’d say more than 15…20, something like that.
Shireen: That’s not bad.
Lisa: That’s okay. [laughs]
Shireen: Who was one player that you were really excited to work with?
Lisa: One player that I was really excited to work with was Paul Pogba.
Shireen: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
Lisa: I know his background, I knew how people were talking things about him, so I wanted to meet him. That's one of the nicest and kindest persons and football players that I’ve met. Of course Zidane too! Zidane, yeah. I was starstruck.
Shireen: I didn’t know you met him! I would just stand there and cry if I ever met him. I don’t know what I would do!
Lisa: [laughs] Yeah. I played with him, I played against his family and it was insane. I was so happy to, even if we lost. I was so happy to play against him.
Shireen: Was that recently, or was that a while ago?
Lisa: It was…Not last summer, but the summer of 2019.
Shireen: Amazing. That’s so cool. Okay, so, what are your hopes for…I can’t get over that you played with him! I don’t even know. Amazing. What are your hopes for freestyle football? What are your hopes for the sport? What do you want to see happen?
Lisa: I want the discipline to grow, of course. More competitions and more diversity in the competitions and in the people that are playing. I would love to have people who speak (out), more than being a freestyler. We need freestylers who speak about a topic maybe deeper than freestyle. I would love to have more women in it, of course, and more women from Africa, more women from Asia, and for them to be able to practice and to be able to improve faster and to keep up with European and American women.
Shireen: That’s awesome. I absolutely agree with you. So, if somebody wants to get into freestyle football, how do they do that? What do you do? Do you have to travel to the competitions? What’s the process if people wanna be you?
Lisa: So, if start playing, if you want to start practice first, you just need a ball actually. So, what I did is I was watching videos on YouTube and I wanted to do the same exact thing that I was watching, so I took the ball and I tried playing and doing the tricks. So, first you practice your juggling skills, regular juggles, and then you try the fundamentals. So, around the world and for competitions most of the time you have to buy the tickets to be somewhere. So yeah, that’s expensive and that’s something I think freestylers need to work on because not everyone is able to afford a ticket and a hotel for a week to participate in the competition, so yeah.
Shireen: If you could juggle with one person in the world – other than me, because I know you want it to be me! [laughs]
Lisa: Of course! [laughs]
Shireen: Who would it be? [laughs]
Lisa: That’s a great question. I’d say Beyoncé, because who would think about her juggling with a football? I’d say her. [laughs] But if I had to choose a football player or an athlete: Serena Williams. I would love to share something, like…I want her to teach me tennis and I would like to teach her how to freestyle and how to do skills with a football.
Shireen: That would be…I want this to happen, okay. I need you to do this with Serena Williams.
Lisa: [laughs] I will do my best.
Shireen: We’re huge fans for her.
Lisa: Serena Williams is the best athlete in the world, so.
Shireen: That’s amazing. I love your answers. I wish all of you could see me fawning over Lisa, because this is just wonderful. So, if people wanna find you where do they find you? What’s your… [Lisa laughing] No, online! Do not show up to her house! I don’t care if her mother cooks really well, do not go to her house! It’s COVID! [laughs] Where do we find you?
Lisa: So, you can find me on social media – Instagram, Twitter, Facebook – @lisafreestyle. That’s where you can find me right now. On social media I put stuff and I let people know what I’m about to do, so yeah.
Shireen: I thank you so much for your time, I know how busy you are. But I’m so delighted that you came to talk to us about the sport of freestyle football because it’s really something that I think a lot of people don’t realize how important it is and what importance it holds and how open it can be to people. So, I really really thank you for your time and for being on Burn It All Down. Thank you so much for that.
Lisa: Thank you for having me, thank you. It’s such a pleasure to speak with you and to be here. I just love to be here, and thank you for your questions. It was my pleasure.