Interview: Michelle Moore, Author of Real Wins: Understanding the power of difference to make meaningful gains

On this episode, Shireen Ahmed talks to Michelle Moore, an award-winning leadership coach, author, speaker and educator about her work in racial equity in sports. They discuss athlete activism, redefining success and Michelle's recently published book Real Wins: Understanding the power of difference to make meaningful gains.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers, Shireen here. Well, I am delighted to bring you this wonderful Christmas present, a wonderful conversation with the author of Real Wins, my friend, a friend of the show: Michelle Moore. Hello, Michelle!

Michelle: Hello Shireen. Brilliant to be here today. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

Shireen: I wouldn't have it any other way. Michelle is an award-winning leadership coach, author, speaker, and educator, and voted as one of the UK's 50 most influential women in sport. Based on a 20 year career in senior leadership roles, across sport government and education, her pioneering work and coaching and leadership programs have transformed the lives of professionals, young people, athletes and the culture of many organizations. She's the winner of the 2016 UK PRECIOUS Award for outstanding women in sport, a Football Black List award winner, and an esteemed national changemaker. Michelle is globally recognized on executive and leadership, race equity in sports for development.

She is a sought-after experience moderator, speaker of hosting events and delivering keynotes for the University of Cambridge, the NBA, and UNICEF UK. She’s chaired events at the United Nations, presented at the House of Lords. Michele makes regular appearances for top tier media, including BBC Radio 4, TRT World, Channel 4, BBC World Service, Sports Hour, and has been featured in The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Times, and The Independent. In addition to being all these wonderful things, Michelle is a connoisseur of peanut butter – and smooth, to be precise. 

Michelle: Absolutely. Not crunchy, smooth. 

Shireen: That is important and relevant. My friend, congratulations on your book, first of all.

Michelle: Thank you so much. I'm so in love with my new book. [Shireen laughs] For all of you listening in, I am just stroking her right now and looking at her beautifully decorated front cover. So I'm very, very proud of her. I am excited to be here and to talk about Real Wins. 

Shireen: That's amazing. Let's talk about the cover art before we get in to it. It's a beautiful book, Michelle. It really is. It's bright. It's vibrant, very much like you. Tell me about who did the cover art. 

Michelle: So, this was based on a lot of my kind of vision at the very start of my book writing process, because my identity and who I am and what I represent in the world as a Black woman of mixed heritage is fundamentally at the forefront of this book. And so my cover had to kind of capture the beauty that goes with being a woman of color, right? And so it's a very African-centric cover. It's got these great geometrical kind of patterns that give a nod to culture and heritage. And obviously winning is a part of my currency as a former athlete. So I had to have the circular medal in the middle and the burst of gold with the writing, the lettering of “Real Wins,” and then the pop of pink there, because style and fashion is just something that I love. And so it was designed by partly by inspiration and my ideas that I talked to my publisher about, and then I have this great friend who's a graphic designer called Kojo who's based out in DC actually, and he helped me to refine some of my thinking around it.

So, it's a collaborative effort, very much like the work I do in the world as a collaborator. And I wanted something to stand out on the bookshelves, and some of the designs that were presented to me at the very beginning was just, you know, just a bit dull, really. And I'm like, I don't understand! That's not who I am in the world. So, this is the final combination of it. And she is a thing of beauty. 

Shireen: She is. So let's talk a little bit about your process – and thank you for letting us know about the cover art. So, you had mentioned a bit before the pandemic…I mean, we were chatting and, you know, full transparency here, Michelle I consider a dear friend. And we have collaborated in the past on events for women in football in the UK and South By Southwest here in the US. Michelle, your process to write a book, because it was always in you. What was your process? It was also a pandemic, which is not over yet, quite frankly, but what was it that made you think I need to do this now? 

Michelle: Well, I could just come up with like some really big romantic idea around this, Shireen, but because it's you, I'm going to be really straight. The global pandemic had hit and previous to that I'd had an agent come and find me and said, we think, Michelle, that you would be able to write a brilliant book. We've seen your work. We've seen you quoted in lots of books. Jules, wonderful Dr. Jules Boykoff, one of our great comrades, friends, that kind of quoted me and acknowledged me in one of his books. So did Ben Carrington. And I was just like, why do you want me to write a book? I've got a lot to do right now. They're like, no, no. We want you to write a book. And the thing is, Shireen, they sent me this email, and I'd sat on it for like three, four weeks, and I sent it to a friend who is an author and he called me straight away. And he's a brilliant author, Derek Bardowell – great book, No Win Race. And he said, Michelle…I was like, oh, I haven't spoken to for ages, Derek! He says, I'm calling you because of the email! You need to respond and you need to follow this up.

And so basically I put together a book proposal and I decided that, okay, I'm going to give it a go, but I wasn't wedded to any outcome. And it's very much how I do my work in the world. I want to do good work. I want to feel as if that work has a value and makes a difference. And then I kind of just see what happens, right? And so I've done a book proposal and that the agent was like, we have to kind of go to publishers now and see who wants to go for this idea. And it's a very eclectic idea. It's about race and leadership and sport and my journey throughout that. And my agent was managing...There was this thing that she kept…“You have to manage your expectations around this.” I was like, look, I'm bringing everything that's Michelle Moore to this. I'm just giving you my best effort and whatever happens, happens. The publishers or whoever you're going to pitch it to, they can't validate me because I already validate myself. So if they want to go for it, great. If they don't, that's fine. I'm just turning up like it's a championship. I'm turning it up and giving my best effort in the heats, the semifinals and whatever. If once you get into the final, if you're an athlete, you know you're a baller, you're a player, you're a soccer player. Once you're in those finals, anything can happen.

And so we did this amazing pitch to the to the publisher. And even my agent, my agent was like, I've never seen you like that, Michelle. I said, well, I was on fire because I was talking about the things that were important to me, about my identity, about how we can redefine success despite inequalities that exist. But you know, where your passions and your purpose align, you come alive, your energy kind of takes over. And I said, oh, you know, whatever happens, happens. I've released myself to the attachment of any of the outcome, because I know that I did a great job. And obviously the publishers loved it. And lo and behold, you know, 10 months later–

Shireen: Ten months! [laughs]

Michelle: You know, I don't hang around. Like, we aren't here long, Shireen, right? We're not here long. Let me use every opportunity, every kind of resource that I have to make my impact in the shortest amount of time, because nothing is promised. And that's what the pandemic had shown me. The pandemic came along and I was very impacted by that. I lost four friends, and it gave me this impetus to write in a different way. My work had dried up as a consultant, as a coach, as a speaker. I was having to redefine my version of success during that time, as my writing became a space where, right, I don't know how to write a book. I've had two books from my author friends about how to write a book. I listened to some amazing audios.

I did a Roxane Gay Masterclass about how to find your authentic voice. And then I decided that this is going to drive me mad and I'm just so intimidated by the amazing writers out there. I just have to start, right? And that's what I did. I just started and I applied my sporting mindset to this target, this barrier. But it was mine. I was birthing this. I did it in quite a short space of time, because…And I wanted it to be easily accessible. It's not like some big academic book. It's like me, it's easily understood. It's very direct. And so therefore the writing process, actually, although it was a challenge, I was able to kind of get through it because I'm used to working towards goals. I'm used to working towards getting feedback, making things happen and keeping it rolling.

Shireen: I mean, I know that about you. I know you to be an incredible presenter, orator. And we know that writer was in there, and I know how much that means to you as well. So, I'm so excited to see this. And, you know, I really like what you said about what the pandemic had taught you and how you manifested that through your work. That's really important because, like you, I do stuff, similar stuff. My research, my work presenting completely was gone because of the pandemic. So you had to rejig. And I will tell you this, and this isn't a spoiler, it's that she's formulated and crafted and curated this incredible piece of writing, like, with boxes throughout. So there are helpful tools for leaders and then tools for resistance.

And what I find...This is really incredible, is that the same time that you're speaking to leaders within sport organizations and leaders and executives, and front end staff, administrators, owners be what it is. You're also speaking to the community at the same time and offering practical tips for self-care, for focus, for goal setting. And what you said was something that really I got was about what you want in your life, you move from merely surviving to thriving. And you're talking about clarity here, and I love that you're like be clear, but be realistic about what your goals are. Not like, you know, you don't fool around. You're a straight shooter, and that's what I love about it. You're not out here being, “If you just work hard, you'll get anything you want,” because A) that doesn't address any of the systems of oppression in which we exist.

But secondly, you're being very practical and pragmatic, which I love because I am not a practical and pragmatic person. And you know that. Like, I felt like this was super helpful on a different level, to really look at your trajectory. And I think this is really important because I have yet to see a book of this magnitude that's focused for sport, which is why I think, although you wrote and published in the UK first, this is going to be globally impactful. Truly. Because I haven't seen…I've seen race and inclusion and equity, diversity and the buzzwords that you said that you're exhausted by, which he wrote in the book. And I feel that, girl, because if one other person tells me they want to talk to me about diversity, I am gonna fucking lose it. [laughs] So, tell me how this has been received where you are.

Michelle: Well, it's still early days. We're just over two weeks since I birthed her, and I am calling her a her. [Shireen laughs] You know, it is what it is. And you know what's beautiful about it is, is that it's when you really own your success, when you own your work in a really deep way, it's very important how it is received to you, but how others receive it. So I am, I'm deeply curious as to how people are going to receive it. And I got some amazing quotes from some early readers, you know, I'm very proud to have two Black women across the front of my book: Denise Lewis, OBE, Olympian, just, you know, a real treasure. And she called my book powering and inspiring. And the foreword by Jeanette Kwakye, one of this country's best sprinters ever and a leading broadcaster.

And then I had the likes of professor Ben Carrington and Hollywood actor Colin Salmon and psychologist John Amaechi also endorsed the book. And that gave me confidence. It was really interesting, Shireen, because, you know, you kind of want people to say really great things. And then when they do, I felt all this pressure. I'm like, the book's not out, and everybody's saying these amazing things! I'm like, gosh, if somebody said to me, you underestimate, Michelle, how many people are really rooting for you. And that's so true. I've been so humbled and blessed by so many people who have started to read the book, the audio, some of the messages that I'm getting.

I did an event the other day and somebody said to me, I wish I'd had your voice in my head when I was younger. Can you write a message in the book to my two daughters who are in their mid twenties? And so it's landing really well. I think…I don't know, there are going to be people that will be challenged by it because you're right, Shireen. I'm so glad you picked that up. I do tread this line of, I'm going to tell you my experience as a Black woman of color, of mixed heritage, and whilst you look through the lens of my experience and the insights from the high profile athletes and the business leaders that I've interviewed, you will see how I have experienced the world in comparison to my white counterparts and the way in which opportunities have been limited.

But at the same time, I will then draw out what you as somebody with perhaps more privileged and influence, or if you're in a leadership position, what can you do better within your own sphere of influence? And then how can all of us play our part once we've identified how we do that and what that part is, and becoming the change makers for ourselves and others in creating a better and fairer world? But doing that by understanding, having a deep understanding of our own self-awareness. So, this moment in time I am being challenged by some of the real barriers that happen for women and women of color when they're writers, but also by just some of the fears that go with releasing something. And you're like, I'm hoping everyone's going to like it!

But not everybody will, right? Because you're right, Shireen. I am a realist, and this isn't a positive thinking, empowerment book – “Let’s think our way positively out with discrimination.” It's not that. This is the harsh reality of my experience. These are some of the things that could have made that experience better, but this is how I have chosen to redefine success, and my idea of success has shifted so much because of my experiences, but also, I'm not into losing! I'm not into just competing for the sake of it. I'm into rinsing everything out of this opportunity for my lifetime so that I can win, right? And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm the winner or the best seller or on this list or that list. I don't define my value by that stuff.

I define my value by the quality of the work, the way in which I connect, move, and inspire and work with those around me to get the best out of themselves, so that I can get the best out of myself. You said to me at the beginning, why are you warming up, Michelle? Why are you doing your exercises? Why are you doing that? It's because every time I turn up, I try to be the best version of who I am in that moment, you know? That's why I'm a really good coach, because when I'm in front of my coachee or my mentee, I am giving them the most powerful conversation in that moment that I can.

And sometimes I'm not my best self because I haven't had a lot of sleep – I'm a perimenopausal woman. But I'm still giving my best effort. And to me, that's me winning. That's me being of service to the world in the way that I know best. And then just releasing myself to whatever happens, happens. But don't get it wrong, Shireen. I'd love to be on that bestseller list, but obviously I understand what it is that gives me intrinsic satisfaction, and that's when my work moves, touches and inspires people to create change. So, whoever picks this up, great. They've picked it up, and I'm hoping that it has some kind of impact on them in a really meaningful way. And that to me is success.

Shireen: So, I'm going to say this carefully, because I find you inspiring. Inspiring is the word I also detest because I think it's been overused, but you truly are. You're not out here making me feel lazy. You're making me feel like I actually want to be better at what I do. You know what I mean? And I will happily ride off your energy, because I'm going to bask in your momentum. And I love that, because now I'm just like, I'm going to get up and mop this floor! I'm going to get up and do this! I'm going to grade all those papers that have yet to be graded! You're just...And seriously listeners, before we were started recording, Michelle was legitimately like warming up and stretching as if she's about to run the track meet. And I'm just like here drinking my coffee, being like, let's go, girl! Let's get this! [laughs] That's who you are, and that's why it's so fun to collaborate with you, because you are so meticulous.

And, you know, I do want to dive a little bit into the book. Your quote of your nan, Olga Moore, was absolutely beautiful. This is a part of a spoken word piece that you wrote, and I'm just going to read it. “I feel the weight of injustice and oppression she endured. The harsh reality of her courage, her resistance, and ultimately her empowerment has been passed down to me.” I love that, because you are paying homage to your foremothers and the women that came before you. And I think that's something that we need to hold a lot of joy around and, you know, the difficulties and challenges, because it wasn't seamless. It was excruciatingly difficult, whether it's immigrant histories, histories, in your case, of anti-Blackness and discrimination and all those things.

But to take the learnings and help them drive you is something that I love about your book. But I also – and this isn't a spoiler – the first few words of your book were incredible. I started laughing. I'm not going to say what they are, after the forward, because I know that feeling. I know exactly what you're talking about. Anybody who works in any form of anti-oppression in any lens will know. So, pick up this book and go read the first couple of words and you're like, yes. Yes. So, Michelle, talk to me a little about athlete activism that you wrote about in the book, because I know that’s something that impacts you, and your work impacts that as well.

Michelle: So that was my favorite chapter, actually, in the book, to write, Shireen. It was, how can we all channel our inner activist and sign up to be the changemaker of our lives? So, for our own self-development, and therefore then be a part of creating change and challenging the status quo. So, I open that chapter with the story of how I interviewed Dr. Tommie Smith – and we all know Tommie Smith and John Carlos from the 1968 Mexico Olympic games. And I, at that time, was a trustee for the Runnymede Trust. I was at a couple of years ago, it was the anniversary, the 50th anniversary of the salute. And I got to interview Tommie, and it was just one of those lifetime memories. I've had his picture of both of them and Peter Norman on my wall for 30 odd years as an inspiration to me. To be able to kind of find your part to play in the activism journey of this world we find ourselves in as marginalized communities.

And so when I had the opportunity to talk with him, he just spoke so movingly about that redemptive power of sacrifice and that it's only open to us when we really understand who we are, right? When we have those levels of self-awareness. And I was very fortunate as well to spend time with John Carlos when he came to the UK a few years before that. And he talked about the ripple effect that we can all have when we are challenging racism and other human rights issues. And I took that and I just made it mean something for me and for all of my readers and saying like, how can you align your personality with your purpose and with your changemaker style?

And I came up with my framework around the kind of different ways we can be activists or changemakers in our lives, because people have different response to that word activist. And I talked about how you can channel your inner positive disruptor and be like a Serena Williams, or you could be a more strategic weaver, like a Marcus Rashford. You can identify the big issues around food poverty and worklessness and everything that goes with being working class and figure out a way in which you can find your part to play. And, you know, Marcus Rashford, the footballer who held this government to account, he changed social policy in this country. No other athlete has ever in the history of this country done that, you know? He has made it so that children from poorer families could eat during the summer holidays of the pandemic.

And so the inspiration that I got from some of those activists, from Eni Aluko to your Alice Dearing, Britain's first Black female Olympic swimmer, and said, right, how can you channel them into your life so that you can step up and find your part to play within this? Because we had a lot of performative activism and action and vision statements after the racist murder of George Floyd by lots of leaders of sports organizations. And then people that wanted to be a part of the change, but they didn't know how to. And so my book charts the way in which you can find your part to play by understanding who you are in the world. And then it gives you some very practical examples as well – because you know what I'm like, Shireen. There’s no point in narrating the experience without saying, this is what you can do. That's the teacher in me, like, come on, let's get on with it. Let's keep this moving. Let's keep this rolling. You're either going to be a part of this or you're not.

And so on the day of my publication, this is how the world works. The day of my publication, I was actually in The Daily Telegraph with a picture of myself and Tommie Smith, because Lord Sebastian Coe said something which wasn't very helpful and had taken what had happened with the Mexico Olympic Games and made it mean something else. He'd kind of devalued it in a different way. And so I was kind of giving the other side to that. And so my picture, it was a dream to have my picture, me and Tommie stood next to each other after that amazing time that we had in that brilliant interview, In The Daily Telegraph, making a point about how important sport is in conveying these amazing messages, but it's up to the leaders of sport to create a more equitable space for all of us to enjoy it and for the athletes to be competing in a way that has much more egalitarian structures. So, that's why that chapter was the most inspiring and exciting and a really special one for me to write. 

Shireen: I love how you're talking about the path is wide and there's many different ways to that goal. You don't always have to be and do the same thing. And I think that's really important. Not everybody is comfortable. Now, we've seen in the United States in particular, we've seen policy be changed by athlete activism, you know, a young runner in Ohio named Noor Alexandria Abukaram was disqualified from a cross country marathon because she wears hijab. She went on to lobby as a high school student, you know, at the Ohio assembly. And she ended up changing that policy for high school students. So, we see it, and it's starting to resonate, which is why your book is so timely. And this conversation is so timely. So, thank you again for that.

There’s the moment in the book where you talk about being the only Black woman in a room of ten, and these are presumable leaders, business leaders, and organizational heads, and that someone was being completely racist. But you asserted that it was because of your light skin you weren't perceived that way, and that you paused this man named Kevin, and you said, could you repeat that? So what are you feeling like, A) in that moment, and B) what was it like to have to write and go through that experience again? 

Michelle: I think, you know, drawing on the legacy of my heritage and, you know, you mentioned my gran Olga Moore. I know that I stand on her shoulders, and so whenever we're in those positions where we feel under attack or we feel like we're the only point of difference in that space, I kind of draw on that strength because she came to this country in 1957 with a suitcase and three children on a boat, right? And from Guyana, small island, and she made a life for us so that my sister and I, my twin sister, could have every opportunity available to us. So when I'm in those moments of struggle, I draw on that, you know? I think Oprah talks about it. You draw on the 10,000, right?

I was in that moment, and it was something that I do – I kind of talk about this when I work with people around the scripts that we can have in those positions, when we need to embolden ourselves, when we're like getting ready for some of these environments we find ourselves in. Repeating the last words that somebody said to you if they're offensive can actually be a tactic to enable them to give them a way to apologize quite quickly and to deescalate a situation, right? So that it doesn't become a protracted, long affair. However, on that day, the ambiguity of what I look like for some people, which is really surprising for me as a woman of color who's six foot one, my physicality is out there, whose politics are very, very much about being a Black woman in the world, clear for everyone to see and understand.

So it's really surprising to me when people find my lighter skin privilege as ambiguous, especially within that work context. And so what was happening for me is I obviously have to do that mental gymnastics of, is it worth calling this out? This is a very senior person. What would be the ramifications for me? So, all that going round in my head. But also, you know, as somebody who’s...I'm a born and bred south Londoner. For the US folks, that means I'm from, you know, some of those rough, tougher streets in our neighborhoods. And so therefore it's like, well, you know, really, this isn't going to run. Not today. And so, I just kind of had to confront and challenge.

And there was the normal kind of backlash in terms of white fragility and the defensiveness that goes around that, but there is that response to me that is even stronger because of my lighter skin, because you're doing this…And I know what this would be like if this was for of a darker skinned sister or man, for example, brother. So, I have to challenge. There's something in me. You know, it's one of my triggers that I have to be able to use my voice in that space. And sometimes throughout the book, I talk about this, I don't do that in big, big ways sometimes. I'm not doing Angela Davis every single time, channeling, but I might be doing something at a lower level, but still with the same kind of power.

And so when I was writing about it, I don't subscribe to this whole catharsis stuff, and I don't subscribe to this whole, “I have to put all of my trauma in here.” I didn't actually give specifics. I just said, these are normal things for any marginalized group, right? We call out injustice, we get gaslit, we get denial, and then the system stays the same if we can't transform it somehow and if we can't find a way to transform it for ourselves. And I went through that whole process of, was I going mad? Did I hear it correctly? All of those things. And in the end, I did win that particular situation. It was a real win, although on paper, in technicalities, it wasn't, but everybody knew that I'd won by the way in which they responded and the way in which I was able to still hold my head high.

So, whenever we're feeling those moments of oppression, we’re not believed in the first instance. You’re like, how can you not believe me? It's crazy. And it was really interesting to me, because sometimes in my career, because I was with very senior and executive people, when I would talk about my experiences of discrimination – and I would talk about it openly – those people that were kind of operating on a lower level than me, they would always be really surprised that somebody senior like myself would be experiencing discrimination. So I talked about it more and more in those kinds of environments. In the book, it doesn't matter if you’re Serena, it doesn't matter if you're Venus, it doesn't matter. You're still Black people in the world and will still experience oppression regardless of how many titles we've won, how many accolades that we have, if we have all of these letters after our name, right? And so it was about demystifying some of that 

Shireen: One of the things that I think is really important here is you talk about winning, so, I’m listening to talk about what a win looks like. I really love that you haven't specified exactly. It's not necessarily one thing. It’s contextual, it's personal. So in that time you talk about integrity and your own win. And that leads me to the next question, is just about self-preservation. And there's this beautiful quote by Audre Lorde: “Caring for myself is not self-indulgence. It is self-preservation, and that is an act of political warfare.” So, I'm wondering about you managing also in a pandemic, also after experiencing loss, birthing this beautiful book – and she is glorious. How do you take care of yourself in these predominantly white spaces? Because, make no mistake about that, they're predominantly white at the upper echelons of sport and whatnot and business. How do you take care of yourself, Michelle? 

Michelle: Oh, I think we have to be really self-aware as to what is it get that gets the best out of ourselves, right? And I'm because I was a 400 meter runner a long time ago, now I’m a netball player when I'm not injured, I've got some aches and pains at the moment. I am used to applying discipline to my life. So, there are some daily practices that I have around juicing, around physical activity, around meditation, around prayer, that get the best out of me; around journaling. And if I don't do those things, I'm a little bit off, so my productivity isn't as high as it could be. And during the last couple of years, I've learned a lot more about myself in terms of…I've been playing into some of that strong Black woman trope, and actually I had to really open myself up and be a more vulnerable and more courageous leader and ask for support and ask for help.

And so I've got a lot better at that. And also, you know, I just wasn't as resilient as I thought I was, and I had to then build that resilience up in shared and fellowship and community with those people who share my values, who share my ideals, who I can lament to, who I can say, “Am I going mad here?” Or is this is this true? And so I have a brilliant new group of Black and brown authors that I'm a part of, and I'm able to articulate my struggles in a way that isn't censored. And I there's a line in the book about, you know, I often feel sense of being self-censored or censored by some of the organizations and leaders that I work with. And the book is about reclaiming that, right? Like, this is my voice. And even though there were some bits that I had to take out and all of that, but essentially you hear my voice in this work. And I have to untap that. I have to be the one that does that.

And so when I'm feeling most positive is when I'm able to, you know, really lean into those resilience techniques. And I have a table in the book in one of the chapters around, you know, what is it that brings me joy and making sure that I'm celebrating and acknowledging and all of my successes, and the things that make me smile and laugh, and the affirmations and the podcasts, and connecting with beautiful spirits like you, Shireen, and doing meaningful work?

You know, the South By Southwest panel that we did, beyond the burkini ban. Before people were talking about Muslim women in sport, we did that way before. I did that because of my deep commitment to this work. And I remember starting that work a year before it happened. And some may say, Michelle, South By Southwest, I'm not interested in a panel called beyond the burkini ban. And I said, well, we're going to see, shall we? So I spent a year just cultivating a relationship with the right people to make that amazing panel happen with you and Bilqis Abdul-Qaadir. And it was incredible. It was an incredible conversation.

Shireen: Yeah, it was.

Michelle: I got so much from that. I loved being around my sisters. I loved being in the US talking about issues around race, around sport, around participation. And to me, that's meaningful work. That's identity affirming, that's collaboration, that's thought leadership. That builds, nourishes and sustains my resilience. Knowing that I have a sister on the other side of the world who gets me, who understands me, who sees me, really sees me – and vice versa, right? So I get involved with projects and collaborations that bring me that kind of joy and that intrinsic satisfaction in a way that perhaps somebody else wouldn't, because I know that that sustains my resilience, you know? And then seeing the work that I do coaching individuals in their environments to navigate intersections of oppression, and whether they have a breakthrough or they get a promotion or they get a job outside of that organization, I revel and share in that joy and that achievement.

And quite honestly, Shireen, some of my mentees and coachees have gone off to get all of these inspiring, crazy, really really cool jobs. And then they bring me back in. So it's like, that to me is shared power, creating these networks of power, because some of those organizations wouldn't touch me with a barge pole. “That Michelle Moore, she's an anti-racist, she’s a bit of a troublemaker. We want to stay away from her.” You know? But as soon as you have a Black or brown person in a position of power, they're like, we're bringing in our own people. Michelle is going to come in and deliver some coaching for your targeted groups of people here who are not excelling through this organization. Why are they not making it through the pipelines? What's happening? Why are all of our Black and brown women just at middle management level? What's that what's going on? How can we accelerate their progress through? And somebody like myself supports them in figuring out how to do that.

Shireen: And I've seen you do this in action, and it's incredible to watch you. Also, South By Southwest, I met Dev Patel that day after our panel, which was…Jessica was with me, and the whole panel was amazing, mind you, because it was one of the first times we had been given stage in that country to talk about something impacting people. You know me, I'm a fellow disruptor in my space. And not everybody has the same path, but to see somebody, like you said, on the other side of the world, doing similar anti-oppression work but in a different space, but how connected it is, and that if I need something, I know I can pick up my WhatsApp and be like, Michelle, what do you think?

And you can do the same. And I think this is very instructive for our listeners as well, because, Michelle, you work independently. And then when you do work independently, you kind of feel like you're alone. But this is to reinvigorate the fact that you're not. There is a community, and you build a community, and, you know, Burn It All Down as very much a community. So we're so, so happy to have you in our community. Again, I can't say it enough, please pick up Real Wins. Michelle, where do we find you and your work? 

Michelle: So I'm on Instagram, @michellemoore.me; I'm on Twitter @HelloMoore; my website is MichelleMoore.me. Yeah, I’m accessible in that way. I'm on LinkedIn. I've got these fancy letters after my name, FRSA. I'm a fellow at the Royal Society of Arts here in the UK, which is, you know, it's not that posh, but there was a lot of Michelle Moores on LinkedIn, so I had to kind of find some letters. Now I'm a part of this amazing community. But yes. So, you know, you can contact me through the publisher as well, Hachette UK. But I'm accessible through those forms. And yeah, I take a lot from what you just said, Shireen, because that's mutual support. That's mutual respect there.

The Burn It All Down podcast is one of the ones that I had on my top of my list when I was telling my publisher there's platforms that I want to share this work on. And so I'm excited to be able to share my voice and to be a part of a community that we kind of stand outside of the mainstream, and that's why we flourish, right? Because that's actually what I talk about in the book, you know, you find your tribes, you find where you feel seen and heard and understood, and then you rinse all of that, then you're in that tribe, and that's it. And just be by being excluded does not determine the stance that I take all. That just informs, right? That's good information I need. And so I can find my tribes in different communities worldwide. And that's what I'm excited about, because that's what this book gives me. It gives me that passport in a kind of different way. 

Shireen: That's brilliant.

Michelle: And I'm excited that Real Wins will be coming to the US in the spring. So, I will be back on hopefully, Shireen, and you'll be hearing lots of me doing some of the publicity and the rounds because I want Real Wins to get into as many hands as possible. And I'm excited for my US publication.

Shireen: I think this is an absolute tool that I'll be using and pointing people to when I do EDI work and I do anti-racism work with sports organizations on this side of the pond, which is exhausting. [laughs] So, this is one of the toolkit pieces I'm going to use – get this book, because this will help you organizationally. Because you speak a language of management that I don't have. You have a fluency in these things. And this is why I'm so excited about your book. So, everybody, I think that…I can't wait to have you on again. You're welcome anytime. The door is always open for you. In fact, there is no door. There's no wall, just come right in.

Michelle: Shireen, I did a talk for love for Loughborough University students, and Loughborough University is a ver, well-known, very prestigious university here in the UK. And they would say, oh, we want your recommended readings. And I said, that's fine. I had a slide of like my recommended reading. I had all the scholars up there, Ben Carrington and everyone. And then I had another slide that was, “To follow: serious influences in the space of sports and race.” And your name was at the top, Shireen, because they know you in this country. They need to know about the Burn It All Down own podcast and everything that goes with that. So, for me, it's about how do we take our messages and make them as wide as possible in all of the different communities that we're a part of and serving as well?

Shireen: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you and thank you. And this is like the happiest Christmas I've ever had. Wow. Look at this love fest.

Michelle: This is a seriously great gift. 

Shireen: Absolutely. A New Year's present. January present. February present. Present in the spring. Makes a fantastic Mother's Day gift – Mother’s Day is in May here on this side of the pond. We'll be saying this for a while to come. Michelle, it is always wonderful to hear your voice and to see you. It's such a treat. Thank you so much for taking time out to speak with us today.

Michelle: Thank you. Really enjoyed it.