Interview: Olympic gold medalist Sami Jo Small on her life and these times

World champion and Olympic gold medalist Sami Jo Small tells Shireen how her experience as a goaltender with the Canadian national team helped prepare her for the pandemic. Plus, Sami Jo explains why she keeps her gold medal inside a Crown Royal bag.

This episode was produced by Martin Kessler. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello flamethrowers, Shireen here. I am so excited to have Canadian hockey legend Sami Jo Small on the show today. For those of you who don’t know her, Sami Jo Small is a three time Canadian Olympic ice hockey goalie – two golds and one silver – yes, against the United States; and a five time world champion. She’s a graduate of Stanford University in mechanical engineering…Just made her own mic stand during this interview. [Sami laughs] She now works as a certified speaking professional, delivering messages on how to build successful teams as well as successful teammates, of which she’s definitely one. She’s originally from Winnipeg; she now lives in Mississauga, Ontario. She’s a connoisseur of chocolate cake and pierogis, and is an aspiring tennis mom. One thing I feel like you should know is that her favorite character from Schitt’s Creek – yes, she watched it – is David. I’m so excited to have Sami Jo Small here to talk about her brilliant book The Role I Played. Hi, Sami Jo. 

Sami: Hi Shireen! I love the intro. I can’t say I’ve ever been introduced that way before. But I want to say hi to my neighbor! We’re neighbors. 

Shireen: We are, and I’m so excited about that. Can’t wait to make Courtney Szto jealous with our distanced selfies. [Sami laughs] So, here’s the thing: thank you so much for sending your book. I loved it. 

Sami: Oh, thank you.

Shireen: I loved the format in which it was written like a diary, and very much in your voice. I love how your message wasn’t just about yourself and being a teammate, it was sharing very personal lessons. I was wondering if you could, first of all, because I’m trying not to make this a super broad question…How the lessons you learned from your journey in hockey helped you to cope with this pandemic life that we have, like, the lessons that you have about resilience, resistance? How that helped you in what you’re doing now?

Sami: For sure. So, I mean, great question, very accurate that so many of the life lessons that we learn through sport will reflect in our lives later. I always say to people, “Sport is not life,” but it certainly can teach us a lot about it. For myself as a goaltender, having been placed in various different situations, I think made me just have to focus on the present. As a goalie we almost have blinders on – you’re solely looking for that puck. Those are the kind of things I have to remind myself on a daily basis with a young daughter, a husband, and going through a pandemic while still trying to bring in some money and work, that I really try to be fully present wherever I am and not think about perhaps the global picture, the bigger picture, at that moment, until I really sit down to, you know, do my lists at night where I’m planning for the next day. That’s where I start to kind of think big picture. But when I’m in the moment I try to be there, just like I was as a goaltender, and really in sport in general.

That’s what I love about sport, is it allows you to be fully present in play, and I try to reflect that into my daily life. We just came back from the park with my daughter, and she of course had to bring her unicorn with her, all the crafts that we made this morning, into the sand, and we had to do pretend the entire time. You know, you can only pretend you’re a unicorn with a horn on your head that’s invisible so many times until you start to wander and you start to think about other things, but this is really her moment. This is her moment with her mom, and I just try to really keep myself there and in the moment. It’s kind of like a three hour hockey game: there’s a lot of time as a goalie that you’re not doing anything, but you need to be ready and you need to be in the moment and you need to almost just be a fan living vicariously through what other people are doing on the ice. I think that’s served me well now as a mom and in my later years, that I can activate that part of my brain.

Shireen: That’s amazing, and I love the analogy of, you know, being ready, but not being right in it right now because of the pandemic.

Sami: I’m ready to play pretend invisible unicorn anytime. [laughter] 

Shireen: I mean, if you’ll allow me I’d love to come out and pretend. I don’t know how but I’ll always ready to learn. 

Sami: [laughs] That’s right, she’ll tell you.

Shireen: Okay!

Sami: She’ll tell you when you’re doing it wrong. Yeah.

Shireen: Absolutely. I mean, my daughter who’s now 18 was far more interested in playing ninja, so we did a lot of that. There’s one thing I wanted to ask you, speaking of the lessons you learned. I’m actually pulling from your book, because I found pieces of your book so personal that you shared and so raw in emotion, and that’s not something I’ve read a lot in athletes. They talk about grit and determination, but you actually talked about moments when you felt disappointed, and I found that very poignant, particularly when you’re talking about January 2002 and you’re speaking specifically about how your team need you to look confident, and then you said, talking about how Kim St-Pierre, she had subbed for you, and you said, “My face goes red. This can’t be happening. My heart pounds out of my chest.” How much, emotionally, did you decide ahead of time when you were writing this book, that you were gonna do this, or was this part of the process as you did it to share these really personal moments with us, the readers?

Sami: Yeah, I think that both of those are very accurate, that it started out not necessarily that way and as I did more of a deep dive it got way more personal. I work as a professional speaker, so I’m constantly in front of various different crowds, and I think the thing that has resonated the most is those moments where I’ve shared my vulnerability as an athlete and allowed them to see themselves in that moment – it might not be as an athlete, but it might be in the workplace or in family where we don’t get what we want. That seems to be more people’s daily life, that seems to be the reality of more situations than perhaps we talk about.

So that’s what I wanted to talk about is really those moments, and showcasing perhaps my vulnerability in those moments, allowing other people to have those same feelings without feeling guilty about it. We’re all human, we all experience jealousy or sadness or depression. There’s moments that are beyond our control, and so we want to feel a different way, but we don’t, and I think acknowledging that that’s okay, especially with the pandemic…You know, I say to people all the time that it’s okay to feel the way you’re feeling and allow yourself that moment, because you can’t really get past it unless you allow it and you feel it. Now, that’s not to say that you need to burden everybody else with that issue. For myself as a goaltender in those moments, you know, when you recount me getting pulled all over again, I can feel it all over again when you’re saying those words, and I can feel that emotion. I don’t think very many people realize just how often that goes on in sport. You could be watching a soccer game and somebody’s subbed off and all you see is the player running on, super excited. But you don’t see the person that’s come off or the reason why or know really whether…Were they just tired, or…?

You know, so many times I’m watching the NHL and the commentators will say, “That goalie probably wants out of the net, he’s let a ton of goals in.” Well, does he? Or does he want another chance to make another save? We don’t know. So, I wanted to show that we have different feelings in the same moments too, and that that’s real. I think the rawness of it came with the rewrites. Initially I wrote it very superficially as sort of a back of the room sales book to be able to bring to my speaking engagements. This is what speakers do – they write a book and they sell it and they make money. There you go. Bob’s your uncle. …Bob really is my uncle, by the way.

Shireen: From Winnipeg. [laughs]

Sami: In Winnipeg, that’s right. But I realized that this story is bigger than just me. The story, while it is about me, it entails a lot of my teammates, that their stories have never been told. I took on this notion that I felt like I was the caretaker of their histories as well, and I needed to showcase them in the best light and for all of our realness as a team of 20 women, 30 women, whatever we happen to be at the time, so that others could see themselves in those moments. Obviously I could talk on and on about this, but I think some athletes come in and they talk about excellence and you can achieve excellence too and this is all possible just believe in yourself and, well, the reality is we all believed in ourselves. We all felt like we deserved that moment. Not everybody gets the moment, and so let’s talk about what happens when you don’t get the moment. I think that that’s what this book is really all about.

Shireen: And for someone who played left bench [Sami laughs] at the University of Toronto soccer, I very much appreciated that perspective, because it’s one that we don’t see enough, particularly when athletes are regarded as being superhuman. 

Sami: For sure. I mean, you made it onto a college varsity soccer team. That’s impressive and amazing, and yet the memory you have is that you sat on the bench, and I also sat on the bench–  

Shireen: I did. I looked fantastic in the track suit, I have to say. 

Sami: I always feel like I’m a gold medal door-opener. [laughter] But the reality is, we make it so far, and you still have those moments. You could be on your single A minor soccer team and sit on the bench, and the feeling’s the same as when you’ve made it to the top of a collegiate sport and you’re sitting on the bench. So yeah, let’s talk about that, because we all experience that, and it’s okay. It’s okay to talk about those emotions and I think that’s how as humans we can relate to each other, is those shared experiences.

Shireen: So, I feel like we can talk about it, but we don’t talk about it enough and I’m so glad you did, because similar to the WNBA leading the conversations on race and justice in the United States, women’s hockey is a place that’s started about labor solidarity. They started conversations that you’re contributing to on mental health, and I think that this is something really really important to have a conversation about, particularly another goaltender that I had the pleasure of working with, Kendra Fisher, has also talked a lot about mental health, and that’s something I particularly see coming from the women’s side, from the women’s game, and conversations about various things in sport. Are you frustrated with the lack of movement reflected in the men’s side about these conversations that are really really critical? Mental health, different things. I’m just wondering your take on that, because we’ve seen so many important conversations happen in the last year, really. Are you feeling like the women are always ready to go, and the men are not anywhere there?

Sami: I wouldn’t say so. I mean, I truly believe that we are in a different social construct, that allows us the opportunity to talk about this without our jobs on the line necessarily, with maybe perhaps more supportive infrastructure around us that allows for this conversation to happen. I think that the guys’ conversation, I do think it’s happening within their own dressing rooms. I think that the conversation has started, but I don’t think that the needle is really being pushed outwardly for fears of what that might mean for their careers, what that might mean for their place on the team. Even if I was on the team, currently, on Team Canada, I would never have written a book like this. You wouldn’t hear the current girls speaking out in this way if you were a bubble player. I mean, this is something that you don’t wanna kind of stick your neck out for fear that someone else is going to take your spot. I think a lot of the guys currently who have, I think, a lot of expectation placed on them by society, are still fearful of their job on a daily basis, and their place on the team.

Whether you feel like you are on the cusp of making the team, if you’re solidly on the team but you’re on the cusp of making the power play, you’re solidly on the power play but you’re on the cusp of being that shootout final shooter…I think for a lot of them it is a situation that they perhaps don’t wanna put themselves out there, and it is, I think, incredibly difficult for them. I think where I would like to see the needle being pushed is by alumni, because they can, and they are past the position of it really affecting their salary, their family, their paycheck. I would love to see some of them speak out for what they truly believe in and the shift in Canadian society that we’re seeing. I think that there’s also a big difference between women’s sport in how you get to the elite level, which happens to be through a lot of really good schools, whereas in men’s sport that isn’t always the case.

So, the way that they have been perhaps trained or educated will be different. So that doesn’t mean that their feelings are any different, that they feel any more or less towards society’s shifts, it just means that they perhaps don’t have the language that they feel comfortable talking about it without getting perhaps one side or the other ripping them apart, essentially. So, yeah. I would love to see some of our male alumni in various different sports, especially professional sports, step out and speak their truth of what they’ve seen, and we're starting to see that. We’re starting to see some of the guys that, like Sheldon Kennedy, that talked about what he went through and some incredibly harrowing experiences that they’ve experienced, so let’s celebrate them rather than expect too much from somebody whose job is on the line.

Shireen: I really love this, what you’re talking about, and it gets to the crux of what I want to ask you next about alumni and those who have privilege or status or more stability, because to be honest I never really thought of it that way, that an active athlete could potentially have their job on the line. I appreciate that. But in terms of talking about things like, for example, systems of racism within hockey even…Because I wanna talk about this, it’s so integral to the conversations that are happening in hockey generally. Would you say this applies as well to the alumni and we should start putting a little bit more…Not pressure, but just having people sort of with that be able to speak out? Because you’ve done work with Indigenous communities in hockey and you’ve talked about it, but we should really be looking to people who have gone through their career? Is that what…?

Sami: Well, I think they have time. I think they have more time. [Shireen laughs] You know, somebody like myself has more time to put myself in this position, to have these conversations, whereas the guys that are currently on the team…I talked to one of the PR guys for the Leafs who said ten years ago you used to be able to walk in to the Maple Leafs dressing room and if you wanted an interview or you wanted a guy to do an event for you you just walked up to him and asked him. That’s not the case anymore. You know, they do two events a year and they’re guided by the Maple Leafs and it’s part and parcel because of their schedule as well – they’re on the road, they’re constantly training, they’re doing stuff. So if a guy does want to do something…I just recently read the Georges Laraque book–

Georges Laraque: When we talk about racism…For me, when I was a child it was so bad, at one point, the n-word, I thought it was my name. Hockey was never my favorite sport. I lived through so much racism that it gave me the fuel to make it to the NHL, because when you tell me in life, in anything that I do, that I’m not gonna make it, I’m not gonna do it – that’s what I’m gonna do.

Sami: –I don’t know, have you read that book?

Shireen: Not yet.

Sami: It’s really good. 

Shireen: Yeah, it’s on my list. 

Sami: It’s really eye-opening because he obviously has done a lot for societal change and used his voice to speak out, but when he wanted to do that within the constraints of the NHL he had to take time away from other activities. It wasn’t that guys were necessarily upset with what he was saying, they were upset with him going away or doing this, or why does he have a different privilege or doing this or why is he speaking out when we have to be in the gym doing this, or whatever. I think that he talks in the book about that being sort of the demise of his career, was the time that he had to take away to do all these other things, and I think guys read that kind of stuff and they see that and they think, “Do I really wanna spend all my time doing this? Do I wanna be that beacon of light known in this way, or do I wanna get on the ice and help my team win the game?” Those shouldn’t be two opposite ends of the spectrum, but I really do think that those guys feel that way, and I’m not speaking for all of them, obviously they all have different opinions.

But reading his book was really fascinating because it really shed light on what the expectations, even just within the dressing room are. The guys didn’t seem to have any issue with what he was speaking on, it just was the time that it took to be away from the team. So yeah, I think that some pressure on the alumni, as you talked about, could be good. And I think just asking their opinion, you know? I think a lot of the times we have the expectation that the Maple Leafs should do this or the current crop of guys should be doing this, but let’s ask around and have those conversations and have the difficult conversations that, you know, most of these guys are maybe not on social media, so I think it’s up to the media to really question, reach out. They don’t have PR agents anymore, it’s sometimes harder to get a hold of these guys, but I think it’s up to journalists to reach out and try to push that needle, because I think a lot of the guys, they’re smart. They’ve lived a life and let’s hear what they have to say and how they are changing themselves as well.

Shireen: Speaking of change, I was wondering your thoughts on where we are for women’s hockey in Canada. This is a subject that’s super close to my heart, just where we are in terms of, you know, we are undoubtedly the best performers of the sport in the world, and I think that we have a solid history and future, but we are also one of the only countries in the world that is top 10 in basketball, hockey, soccer, without a domestic women’s league. Are you frustrated, as someone who gave so much to the game development? I mean, you played at Stanford, but your heart is rooted here, you’re here again. Do you look at this with frustration, like, come on, Canada! Get it together! Where are we here? Because we don’t wanna keep…I don’t wanna say losing our players to the NWHL or whatever despite the PWHPA being here and being such  vital part, but they’re not an active league – I mean, despite pandemic, just pretend there’s no pandemic for a little while. [Sami laughs] Do you find this frustrating as someone whose life is very very deeply woven into this sport and this country?

Sami: …Yes. Simple answer, yes, I do. I mean, there is a team here, there is the Toronto Six, so we can’t forget about them, while they haven’t started playing yet. I hesitantly say that I’m excited for them and for the girls that are playing. I say hesitantly because that sets me up as a beacon to take sides, and I don’t wanna take sides. I believe in what the PWHPA is doing, but I am frustrated with what they’re doing. I believe in what the NWHL is doing and feel like they are not getting the accolades in Canada like they should. I feel like both sides have incredible arguments and both sides are on some level very stubborn, so what do I feel? What do I think? Well, I feel frustrated because you’re right, I put in so much of my life and so much of my time into creating a league that while people talk about the demise – why did this happen, what was the reasoning – let’s celebrate that it existed for 11 years and that we went from a budget of $350,000 in the first year to a final budget of $3.5 million, so over the course of 11 years that’s huge progress in women’s sport and in hockey in general in this country. I think the frustration with me lays in that there are jobs available in women’s hockey right now and that certain sides or certain predispositions to want to partner or believe in certain people over other people precludes people from taking these jobs, from really enjoying the game. I think that’s what I feel so badly about. In the book I talked so much about play, and I talk about the teammates I had and the adventures we got to take together, and these girls are not getting that opportunity. So that’s what I feel so terrible about, is that these people that I know intimately are not getting to play the game they love. Because they feel that they should side with one thing or the other, and if they choose to come out of those ranks then you are picking allegiances against your friends. That to me is a terrible state for a game to be in. That doesn’t mean I don't think that something amazing’s going to come out of it, and I could sit and talk to you for hours about what I think the good and bad and ugly of both sides are, but ultimately the fact that we’ve created sides is a travesty, I think, within our sport and within the game of hockey, that not only are these girls not getting to play but fans are not getting to watch them. There isn’t a sort of construct that we can go and just hang out at a game and just enjoy it and sit and have beers while we’re watching women’s hockey. That just doesn’t exist across the country right now…Minus the pandemic. So, I guess I’m frustrated but I’m also apathetic. I feel like a year and a half, two years has gone by, and there’s been very little movement that I’ve seen which has made me move on. It’s made me and many of my teammates of a certain generation move on to stop the frustration. Every time I read an article, every time I’m sort of brought back into it, I’m suddenly thrust into being sad and mad and angry and all of the things that happened with the demise of the CWHL. Billy, my husband, is always like, “Stop reading about that stuff!” [Shireen laughs] “Stop following them on social media!” It’s like, I just so badly want the best for them and so many of them are still really good friends of mine. The girls are having to make choices that they should never have to make. Like, Megan Bozek and her husband lived with us for a while and she’s going to play for the Chinese team, but in Russia, and I’m proud of her decision for doing that because being an American and trying to play here in Canada, there isn’t ice time. There aren’t teammates to play with. She doesn’t have access to ice time the same way that the other PW players do – rightly or wrongly. She had to make a decision, and so many of them have had to make these really tough life decisions when I appreciate that we were never in that position. So, I think they’re attempting to do the best for the game, and I honestly believe that nobody does things for malicious reasons and everybody thinks that they’re doing the right thing, and so what I do, what I try to do, is support the individuals, support the players. I do a check-in sometimes with the girls who are going through the situation, whether they’re playing in the PW or they’re in the NWHL or alumni, I just try to gauge how can I be of service. How can I help? How can I help you enjoy the game in the way you want it to be enjoyed? There isn’t often an answer, but sometimes communication is all you have. So that’s what I try to do. I think you can hear the frustration in my voice, and I still haven’t really come to terms with what the future should be, but maybe it’s also not my place anymore to come to terms with that and it's the next generation to decide what they really truly do want. I just hope that they make some moves.

Shireen: Yeah, I’m very much agreeing with you. I’m very excited for the Six to come. I’ve just been really missing women’s hockey, so desperately. I had a really good time…Although I was a self-declared huge fan of Les Canadiennes, I would definitely go see the Furies when they were here, and I think it was fun to be in that environment. It’s an environment where you saw the players out there signing autographs for like an hour and the face lit up of the kids, it was just…I think the only hockey games my kids might’ve been to, professional ones, have been women’s, and I’m okay with that. I miss that, and I can’t wait for N-dub, like you, I’m ready for women’s hockey. I just need this pandemic to finish and then I can get back to enjoying it. There’s one thing I wanted to ask you that really weighed heavily on me, and you brought it up in your Ted Talk – do you actually keep your gold medals in a Crown Royal velvet bag?

Sami: [laughs] I do. [Shireen laughing] I actually definitely do. It’s right there, do you wanna see it?

Shireen: Yeah, sure!

Sami: Okay, I’m just gonna unplug my earphones for a sec as I go to get it. You can probably still kind of hear me. Have you ever seen a gold medal before?

Shireen: Not in person.

Sami: Oh my gosh. Okay, I’m gonna bring it to your house one day. Your kids can see it.

Shireen: Oh my gosh! [laughs]

Sami: And…Here’s the gold medal! There you go.

Shireen: Thats’ beautiful. For those who can’t see, Sami Jo is showing me the gold medal.

Sami: I wish I could show it to you in person. When the pandemic is done we will do that.

Shireen: We will do that.

Sami: But yeah, it’s the best carrying case. It actually comes in a nice box; all of them come in sort of their own unique designed box, but it’s hard to get that into a small package and the Crown Royal bag just serves really well for that. My husband keeps his in socks, wool socks – also very Canadian. Cheryl Pounder keeps hers in mittens. [laughs]

Shireen: I think that’s amazing. Are they Roots socks though? Ask him. [laughs]

Sami: Ooh, I don’t know. They might be Zellers or something. 

Shireen: [laughing] Oh, wow. That’s a name I haven’t heard in ages!

Sami: That’s more my style.

Shireen: The question that I have is: if you were gonna try to encourage aspiring hockey players to keep going, even though there’s no clear path like there used to be, like, you go to Div 1 schools, the top players in those countries go to Div 1 schools and then professional leagues or they go overseas or whatnot. To get through that process, I mean…First of all, I would definitely suggest everybody read her book, The Role I Played, because I think it’s really important and there’s lessons for everybody within that. But if you were gonna offer one piece of advice to the young hockey players listening to this show, what would you tell them?

Sami: So, I think it depends on the player, you know? I think that when I’m offering advice to young people I wanna hear from them. I wanna hear what are you looking for, what is your ultimate dream? What is your ultimate goal? Then let’s work on a path to get there. I don’t think it’s important to have the realization that it might not happen. I think that’s an adult construct. I don’t think that’s something that we need to share with our youth, that not everything is possible, but what I try to instill into young aspiring hockey players is that whatever it is that you want to do, don’t ever let anybody take that dream away from you, because it ultimately is your dream.

Whenever I’m talking to youth I try to encourage them to be inclusive, to include that person that is maybe on the sidelines, that maybe never got a chance to play. Because I think that, for myself, I had a brother that included me in a street hockey game and allowed me to play, and I think we all need a helping hand sometimes that way. If you’ve had the privilege of having that it is upon yourself to then give that to others. That could be in any type of setting, but allowing somebody else the opportunity and helping them pursue their goals, in my life, has been just as meaningful as me myself pursuing my goals. Sometimes helping somebody else get to ultimate success is even more rewarding. But I think what is missing from youth sport a lot is listening, and let’s listen to what they want. I have a young 4 year old daughter who hates hockey, [laughs] and she has two parents that are Olympians. While it might be forced upon her, I think what we wanna do is introduce her to a plethora of different things, and allow her to find her passion. It, much to my demise, might end up being gymnastics or dance. But I’m gonna expose her to a bunch of different things, and like my parents who were not hockey people, they supported us no matter what, and that’s not an easy thing to do, because I now know as a parent how desperately you want your children to enjoy the activities you enjoy, but that isn’t always the case.

So I think my long-winded answer is to listen. Do they just wanna play with their friends? Do they just wanna feel what it’s like to run up and down the soccer field and look at the flowers? Because that’s what my daughter loves in soccer. Then I’m gonna cheer her on from the sidelines as best I can so that she has a really great time. Sometimes that's hard because I want her to take that ball off that other little kid! But she wants to pick the flowers and give me a bouquet at the end, and that’s okay too.

Shireen: That’s amazing. I have a son that had the audacity to become a volleyball player, and I was just like…I don’t understand any of this, and I love it now. I’m out there with cowbells.

Sami: Totally. And that’s what my parents became, you know? That is our ultimate responsibility as parents. 

Shireen: Yeah, I still don’t understand why any of them didn’t choose soccer except for my daughter, but it gave me the ability to say I have three boys and a soccer player, which I can say with a lot of pride. 

Sami: That’s awesome.

Shireen: Sami Jo, you have been an absolute delight. It is such a pleasure to speak with you. I think that your book is not just…And for those that are worried it might be too technical, it’s more of a journey in hockey, but a personal one as well, and I would really recommend everybody get it. Also, I think your cover is dope, I’m a huge fan.

Sami: Thank you!

Shireen: The gold and the red…

Sami: Thank you! Let’s honor Heather Pollock, who took that photo. She is a local Toronto women’s rec hockey player through the Women of Winter, that I contacted, and she’s amazing. She worked with the Furies as well.

Shireen: I love it, its just very attractive. Again, a nod to the gold and the Canadian red. I think that this conversation is absolutely one of my favorites. You’re amazing, and I’m so excited.

Sami: Well thank you! Can we be best friends now? Because I feel like–

Shireen: Yeah!

Sami: –I want to.

Shireen: Can we? Yeah. But actually I feel like that’s already happened!

Sami: Yeah. We just need to meet in person!

Shireen: Totally. So, on that note, thank you so much. You’re amazing.

Sami: It’s been a pleasure, thank you guys!

Shireen: Don’t forget to get your copy of The Role I Played, I highly recommend it. It is a fantastic read.