Interview: Alison Mariella Désir, author of Running While Black
In this episode, Shireen Ahmed interviews Alison Mariella Désir, endurance athlete, activist, mental health advocate and author of the book Running While Black. They talk about Alison's writing process, relationship with endurance running in as Black woman in a white sport.
To pre-order Running While Black, which publishes October 18, 2022, visit: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/675749/running-while-black-by-alison-mariella-desir
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers. Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. I am so excited to have our next guest on. It is the one and the only Alison Mariella Désir. Yes, our favorite runner is here, talking about her new book Running While Black. Hello, Alison!
Alison: Hello, Shireen. Hi, Flamethrowers!
Shireen: If you don't know who she is, I'm just gonna give you a little bit of her bio. You do if you listen to the show. Alison is an endurance athlete, activist, and mental health advocate, currently co-chair of the Running Industry Diversity Coalition, a Run Happy advocate for Brooks Running, and an athlete advisor for Oiselle. Désir is a founder of Harlem Run, a New York City based running movement, All 4 Women, an organization that fundraises for social justice focused non-profits, and the Meaning Thru Movement tour, a speaking series featuring mental health experts and fitness professionals. A graduate of Columbia University with her bachelor’s and two master’s degrees, including a master of education and counseling psych, Désir has been published in Outside magazine and contributed the forward for Running Is My Therapy by Scott Douglas. Running While Black is her first book. Désir currently lives in Seattle with her son Kouri Henri, and partner Amir Muhammad Figueroa. I do need to tell everybody that her wind up song is All I Do Is Win by DJ Khaled, and I have that on authority. [Alison laughs] Alison, you are amazing, and I'm so glad you're here to talk to us about your book.
Alison: I'm so, so excited to be here to talk to you.
Shireen: So, first question is: you're a mom, so was writing your book…Like, they say it's like birthing. Like, the process of curating and doing everything. Was it like…Because you're a beautiful writer.
Alison: Thank you.
Shireen: So was this easy for you?
Alison: It was not easy. There were so many edits and versions and things that have been pulled that I thought were just like, oh, this is the best story, the most incredible chapter. And my editor was like, nope, cut. [laughs] So, it was so hard, and I think a lot of it is because I'm telling my story. I’m also telling a lot of history in the book. But when you're telling your own story, you sort of…I mean, you lose objectivity. None of us is objective anyway. That's like a lie. But you lose all sense of what is valuable to continue the story that you're telling in the book, right? I often got really wedded to telling parts of my story because they were powerful. Well, my editor kept saying, you know, what is the story you're telling in this book? And how does this story that you wanna tell, this smaller story that you wanna tell, how does it move the narrative along?
And that was just a way of thinking that I hadn't had before, because I had never written a book. I thought a book was like, you just sit down and write all the stuff, and that's it. [laughs] But you know, I was thinking of what is the throughline, what is the narrative? And then also thinking about making sure that I was showing, not telling, right? I'm used to, when you write opinion pieces or when you write magazine articles, there's more you show, but there is more telling, because ultimately you're like, “And this is what my point is,” right? Like you're clear on what your thesis is. And so this idea of showing was really difficult for me initially, and man, writing this book with a son who's three years old – he'll probably come bursting through the door at any minute – was also really difficult because, you know, kids just wanna play with you all day. And I thank my partner, Amir, because there were just so many days when I ignored them for hours and hours and hours behind a computer screen. [laughter]
Shireen: I mean, one of the things that I wanted to ask you, because the book is called Running While Black: Finding Freedom in a Sport That Wasn't Built For Us. This is also a deeply personal journey, and you explain your journey and how you got to running and, you know, where you are. And your journey continues. It's not like it's over because the book is published. But I'm not surprised you have a book, and I'm so excited you do, to share this with everybody, because it's also very intelligent but very accessible to people, and I appreciate that, because it's not often we find this level…You know, some things are so cerebral, and then people can't relate to them, but your book is so, so easily…You can embrace it. And I think there was about 60 times that I was like, “I felt like this,” before part two. I was like, I felt like this, I felt like this.
Alison: Oh, I love that.
Shireen: Was there a part of you that was like, no, I wanna keep this for me?
Alison: Mm, yeah. That was so hard. So the original title of the book was “The Unbearable Whiteness of Running.” And in that version of the book, I really centered whiteness, right? I was talking about…The focus was the whiteness of the running industry and really about…I mean, it was about white people. [laughs] And I got into that book and it was more manifesto and more just, honestly, more of a book that's like “an anti-racist book.” I'm using air quotes right now, but a book that's intended to teach white people something. And then there was a moment where I was like, wait a minute, I don't wanna write a book that centers whiteness. I wanna write a book that centers my experience, that ultimately is one that Black people, but people of color, marginalized folks, can read this, and as you said, say, oh my gosh, that has happened to me. Or, oh my gosh, I'm not crazy. And I use “crazy” in the colloquial word, right? I'm not crazy. Other people are experiencing the same thing.
So there was that shift. But with that shift, I realized I'm gonna have to be incredibly vulnerable. And my story is, you know, it's complex in that I've had a lot of privilege in my life, right? I had simple things from, yes, my parents were immigrants, but my parents were very highly educated themselves. They spoke English. They were reviewing my essays. You know, we lived in a middle class home. So, all of this privilege, and yet I also still face a lot of racism, sexism, classism. So, you know, some of the fears that I have are that people want there to be one type of Black person or one type of Black experience, and I don't fit that. Like, I can count the number of times somebody has called me the n-word on two hands. I mean, that's still plenty, but you know. Nobody has physically assaulted me. The kind of tropes that people like and enjoy hearing about the Black experience is not mine.
And so I just had to stand in my truth, like, this was my experience, and it was also harmful, and it was also defined by white supremacy. We'll see what…The jury is still out, right? [laughs] As we speak today, the book is not available in lots of folks' hands, so I am curious what the critiques will be. But I'm just mindful that a lot of the critiques will be folks who are hateful and who don't have enough room in their head to understand the nuance and complexity of our humanity.
Shireen: But I think one of the things that's so powerful about what you've written is that at the same time, like, you literally explain how you came across intersectionality by Dr. Kimberlé Crenshaw. You explain that theory and that philosophy in your book. But at the same time, you're sharing. It’s not like you're condescending at all. You're saying, this is what I'm learning, and this is when I learned it, and how I brought it into my running. So, it's like you're sharing that experience. So it's extremely…It’s brilliant in the way that running is a vehicle for sharing this experience.
Alison: Yes. Yes.
Shireen: And I use that as a pun, I guess, but...Running’s not really a vehicle. [laughter] But for, you know, the medium through which you're sharing, and not to put the burden on you to educate, because I don't believe that the burden should be on racialized folks to dismantle all systems of racism. But the way that you do it is you're so generous too in the way that you write.
Alison: Thank you.
Shireen: Honestly, I was like, this woman has so much patience. [laughter] Right up in here.
Alison: I know. Oh gosh. Those were my favorite chapters to write. Shoutout to Dr. Riddhi Sandil. She is like my mentor, just somebody who I deeply, deeply admire. And getting my second master's in counseling psychology was really a critical moment in my life. It transformed the way I saw the world, the way I saw myself. It was the first time that I had words to describe like, oh, okay, I'm not ugly. I'm not stupid. I'm not worthless. I just live in a world that is projecting these ideas onto me. Like, oh my gosh. So that was like this really transformational moment for me, and I thought it was powerful, as you say, to sort of have the reader come along that journey with me, because the other piece of this – and I'm not always in the best mind frame to understand this – is that we're all on different journeys, right?
And while it's easy to resent folks who have lived, you know, 45 years of their life and never considered white supremacy or racism. While that's difficult for me to grapple with, I also have to understand, well, that is an intentional project of the world that people with privilege are unaware of their privilege. So, the minute they come to learning and are willing to understand, well, then the education starts there, right? So I did wanna be generous with this book, because it's both an invitation for people and then a very strong call to action. Like, now that you know this, what are you gonna do about it?
Shireen: Yeah. And I think that's so important for people to understand. The verb is to be in motion about it and what's happening next. Are you going to look at your own running group and look at that? And it's really interesting, because you pointed out the history of the running group in Oregon, which was 1963, and how historically although they were like everyone's invited, just because you take down segregation banners and posters and signs doesn't mean that that's eradicated. You know, the segregation in society mentally as well.
Alison: Exactly.
Shireen: I learned a lot from your book. I was like, wow, historically there's pieces that are connected to sport that I didn't actually know of or think about. So this was–
Alison: Ah, wait! I wanna pause on that, because you know so much, I feel so good to have…That this book was in conversation with you in that way.
Shireen: Yeah, a hundred percent. Like, you know I work with Dr. Amira Rose Davis and Dr. Brenda Elsey, our sports historians, and I'm gonna be like, Amira, did you know, blah, blah, blah? [Alison laughs] And she's like, yes. Like, you know what I mean? So much of what I know is from them, and about Black history and from Amira in particular. So it's like, I'm so grateful, because there are dots that aren't easily connected or we don't see.
Alison: Yeah. So, you know, I start the book with this timeline that juxtaposes running history and then what I call Black people's reality. And really, I came to this idea when I looked at…There were two dates in particular. There was 1963, when Bill Bowerman in Eugene, Oregon put a call out welcoming everybody, anybody, to show up and run with him. And you actually can see images from newspapers at the time, that “everyone” that showed up was white men, women, and children. And then I was thinking, like, 1963 – wasn't that the year that Martin Luther King Jr. was marching on Washington? Like, hold up. Didn't we not gain the right to vote until 1968? Wasn't housing still segregated? Like, all of these things. So I was like, okay, my mind is just…The cognitive dissonance, I cannot handle it, right? Then the second date was 1896, and I'm a nerd like this, and certain dates just remain in my memory.
But 1896 I knew was the first modern Olympics. I knew 1897 was the foundation of the Boston Athletic Association that runs the Boston Marathon. But I also knew 1896 was when Plessy versus Ferguson came to be law. And Plessy versus Ferguson is the foundation for Jim Crow segregation. So I was just like, hold on. Like, we're living in two different worlds. White people are living in a world where they have access to the outdoors, to their freedom. And Black people are living in a world where we can't go in the front door, we can't marry outside of our race, we can't vote, we can't go to certain schools, we can't visit national parks, we can't go to public pools. I’m like, okay, running truly was not built for us, because the world was not built for us. And I just thought it was so important that providing that additional context makes it such that my argument is unassailable, like, you cannot disagree with me. Like, we legally could not be outside, so how could we have been part of this long distance running movement? And yet, there's also this story of incredible Black people who were doing it, who have been erased essentially from history.
Shireen: Yeah, I mean, that's something that I read, The Warmth of Other Suns, on Amira’s recommendation.
Alison: So, so good.
Shireen: And I didn't know, like, I'm born and raised in Canada. I knew very little about American history, particularly the Great Migration. I didn't know. So when you said 1897, I'm like, I know that year. I mean I also nerd out. But I think one of the ways that's really interesting about the history that you're sharing and the present that you're offering as well is how connected it is not just to sport, but to other racialized groups. There's one thing that you said that stayed with me. Your experience with Dr. Riddhi was like, speak it Dr. Riddhi! Tell everybody, especially when you're trying to navigate through being frustrated. Are you mad at white people or are you mad at the systems of white supremacy? Because I have been frustrated, have been like, white people don't season their food. So people have been like, to me, don't say that, you can't put everybody…And I'm like, no, but when I say that, I don't mean…I’m like, I've got friends that are white. I'm not racist. [laughter]
Alison: My best friend is white!
Shireen: My best friend's white. I'm not racist. And actually, none of my neighbors are white. But no, the lady across the street is. So I'm like, you know how that is? But that stuck with me, that moment where you're talking about you have short hair and then the partner you're working with.
Alison: Oh my goodness.
Shireen: I swear, Alison, I'm tensing up as I'm reading this, because those aggressions...And I'm not gonna like specify whether they’re micro or macro, because to me they're aggressions. And I start to get tense because I've been in so many of those spaces where people…And in my case, it's not the hair, but it's the hijab, right? You know, they'll be like, well, you don't have to wear that here. Do you know what I'm saying? And the rhetoric around women's bodies is so, ugh. But the other thing that really affected me when I was reading was the race lab that you talked about. And how in that moment you wouldn't give in to the pressure of being asked to do something that was expected of you. Because labor often, as we know, falls on the backs of Black women in a space, or racialized women. And you wouldn't, you wouldn't give in. And I was like, in my head I'm like, it was like you were in the race and you were sprinting to the end.
Alison: Yes, yes. [laughs]
Shireen: And I’m like, hold out, hold out! Don't give in! And it made feel…That was the other point that I teared up. And I'm not just saying that as a racialized woman or woman with similar challenges, but you wanna root for you because you're gunning for yourself. You don't have a society and system supporting you, and you feel this in this book, that you have to run with the weight of society often on your shoulders. So, you know, you are generous in also letting the reader share your wins along the way, and your struggles.
Alison: I'm getting chills hearing you say that, particularly because at one point in the writing of this book there was a chapter, or I think maybe it was a section, that was called Bearing the Weight. And it was the idea of this weight that we carry. So, whenever, whether we're running or not, just moving through space, there's this additional weight of expectations, of stereotypes, of all of that stuff that we carry with us. And it's invisible, right? And I thought about it in juxtaposition to Peggy McIntosh, which talks about like the Invisible Knapsack that white people carry with privilege. And I was like, well, we carry another one [laughter] that is just like anvil on us of all of this.
Shireen: Yeah.
Alison: And yeah, that was such a powerful moment. And again, this is why Riddhi is so important to me, because she allowed me space to realize I could just be myself, you know? Not without consequence. I can stay true to myself in those moments. And that was the beginning. People ask me a lot now, like, how do you show up so unapologetically and so authentically? And I'm like, well, you know, I actually did a lot of work. Going through a counseling program is very much rooted your own self discovery and counseling and all of that very much, like, that’s what allowed me to get to this place of being like, when it's safe, I'm gonna show up as my full self.
Shireen: Yeah. I love that you actually said when it's safe, and that's the other thing that very often in your experience – and in the book you described this, and I think it's really powerful for people all people to understand, and even those from other racialized communities, because there's significant anti-Blackness in other racialized communities. And to understand those experiences, but also for white people to sort of say, well, wait a second, I didn't realize that you have to make yourself more “palatable” – and I’m using air quotes – to do that. The code switching, which we do so naturally, but you look around, you scan the place, and you're like, okay, what performance do I have to put on tonight?
Alison: Exactly. Exactly.
Shireen: And that's after doing the running. So you're physically spent. And now you have to do the mental piece too.
Alison: Yeah, and you know, there's something that I was talking about recently, and it's not related to running, but you know, my son goes to daycare, and I'm often, you know, when I'm going to pick him up, I often look down and I have a shirt that says something like, “trans people belong in sports,” or it's like a raised fist. [Shireen laughs] And I'm like, ah, damn. I change my shirt, I put on something palatable and I go to his school. And it's not because I'm worried about what the parents will do to me, it's that I'm worried about what the parents, what the teachers will do to my son, right? And it just boils my blood that I have to do that, but I'm like, I'm not gonna put my defenseless child who barely speaks English or any language in a position where people are then gonna treat him differently because his mother is the way that she is. There will come a point where he'll be able to understand, defend himself, get aligned.
But that moment, like, it's always something where I feel myself tense up because I'm like, I'm gonna go to school in this and be this version of myself that is as non-controversial as a woman with orange dreads can be, [laughter] a Black woman, right? For the sake of my son. And those are the kinds of things that white people just don't consider, because they're also white people – not at my son's school – but who show up in the playground with Make America Great Again hats, right? And they feel so emboldened and entitled to do that. And I'm like, hi, please don't see me, please don't see my son, we're just here to play, you know? It’s frustrating and enraging.
Shireen: The first paragraph of your book shook me when you talked about, “I'm running, don't shoot,” and wearing a t-shirt that said that. And I kid you not, I was actually in the CBC building yesterday, and I showed that paragraph to my friend, my colleague, Morgan Campbell, and I was like, Morgan, I need you to see this. And he's like, yeah, man. Like, he runs. He actually hosts this over the hill run every year for his birthday in November, and I met a bunch of people who are racialized and who run. And you know, then COVID happened and unfortunately we couldn’t keep it up. But he has a lot of experience with running and this and that. And I said, look. He’s like, yeah. And that was the first paragraph of your book, and for me it was harrowing, because to even...You have things for you and your son that you have to think about in your authentic life that other people just don't. And, you know, this takes me – and we talk about safety – to when you found out, and you talk about your frustration of not learning about Ahmaud Arbery’s death until much later. None of us did. It didn't make the news. And at that point, without spoiling any of the book’s story, I just wanna dig into, did that make you want to run more, your visceral reaction? Or were you like, I'm done. I'm breaking up with running.
Alison: I was like, I'm done. Right? I was like, you know...And this is the way that the world, like, none of us are truly free, right? I realized that it's just not worth it. Like, I'm going to limit all of the things that could potentially get me killed as a Black person. And when you think about it, it's a lot of things. [laughs] It's driving, it's sleeping in your own apartment. You know, it's any and everything. But I was like, running is a risk. I talk a lot in my book about how it's like high level math. It's a negotiation of where to go and what to wear, and you know, who to smile at, who to wave to. And I just decided running is not worth it. I'm a mother now. I have a child. I will not run and save myself the potential of of being shot, killed, harassed. And for a time I became, without giving too much away, I became very consumed by following news stories. And they're everywhere, right? And I created lists and lists of what happened to people while they were on runs or outside moving through space as a reminder, like, this can happen to you, right? You're not being paranoid, you're not being ridiculous. This is actually happening. So don't get too cocky. Don't think it can’t happen to you because it very well could.
Shireen: One of the things that I appreciated was you processing that or sharing your process of that in your writing. Were you emotional when you ran the first time after?
Alison: Definitely, definitely. Especially at, you know, a run that was particularly emotional for me was the running for Ahmaud, the 2.23 miles, because I felt so conflicted because, and I share this in the book, it felt like Ahmaud’s life was being reduced to just 2.23 miles, right? I felt like there's so much more to him than this. And then I realized through movement, through running those 2.33 miles with my husband and my son, how powerful it was to move for him. And we were finishing the run for him, right? But running took on this new level of complexity and overthinking, right? Like, this is just something you're supposed to be able to go outside and do, and you're thinking about your safety, you're thinking about whether it's worth it. You're thinking about all of these larger ideas. And then when you share that story, many white people say, “Keep politics out of running. Why are you making this so political?” [Shireen laughs] And it's like, well, my existence, all of our existence is in fact political. [laughs]
Shireen: Yep. You spoke a lot and interrogated this idea of how track athletes and the power sports are routinely for Black athletes, and long distance. And that's certainly in a US context. But when you look at a global context, African winners are dominating the long distances. How long do you think it'll take? Because sometimes, you know, American sport culture is so insular that it doesn't see beyond that, that they'll sort of understand that that's not what should be happening. And there's strength and there's power and there's ability and possibility in all of the sports, right? Like we're seeing, you know, I'm someone who is very much in the ice hockey scene, so we're seeing and having conversations about that and what it looks like. So, not just the expansion, but the opening of understanding as well. So, why do you think that is still there when, on a global context, Black folks are dominating long distance running?
Alison: Yeah, man, there's so much in that question. I think first of all, an important thing to understand is that for many white people, they don't even see the distinction, right? They see Black people as Black people. And a funny story about that...Well, not so funny, but a friend of mine who currently holds the fastest time for an American born Black woman in the marathon, Samia Akbar, she recalls that at the end of races, oftentimes press won't even go up and speak to her because they assume she doesn't speak English. They assume that she's East African because she's Black and she's won a marathon, right? So when I have this conversation with people, with some white people about my book – and I keep saying “some” so white people don't feel all lumped together. [laughs] When I have this conversation with some white people, they're like, but what do you mean? Black people always win the marathon. And I'm like, those are Black people, but those are Africans, right? Those are East Africans many times, and there's a whole culture and history around long distance running and what it means to community and just the daily lives of how people have to move through space, right? People often find themselves running long distances to do daily tasks, and then there's this like legendary, beloved culture of running.
So that's one piece that oftentimes why people don't even make distinctions and often lump Black people into one category. But I will say, I think that we are in this amazing, powerful moment, and I hope that my book sort of launches us even more in this direction of Black people, American born Black people truly being exceptional in long distance. And that is not new. That is a return, right? When you think about Ted Corbitt, who I talk a lot about in the book, and several other Black folks who have excelled in long distance, in ultra-marathons. What I find is happening now is really a return to that, recognizing we've done this before. In fact, we laid the foundation for long distance running culture. And so I've seen just in recent years several Black American women race under three hours in the marathon. There's a lot of interest and excitement, and I think it will grow and change, and I think that's gonna happen honestly whether white people get on board or not, right? Like, Black folks are reclaiming what is actually ours. I don't know, maybe 20 years from now white people in the media will truly awaken to what's happening. But I see a lot of movement right now, and like I said, I hope that my book propels that even further.
Shireen: Have you seen, with the running groups that you've created and other running groups, have you seen like an upswing in participation from young Black runners?
Alison: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, now more than ever, there's so many Black and brown founded running groups. And I think part of what I wanna share in my book, there's this chapter, it's my favorite chapter, it's called Everything is Connected. And it explains why white people, it's not that we love living in segregated communities, right? It's not like all Black people are like, let's all just live on this side where there's less resources. [laughs]
Shireen: Or no water.
Alison: Or no water, and violence. And white people are like, let's just go to the really pretty areas where there's trail access and better air quality, right? Like, the government literally created this segregation and maintains this segregation, right? So, a lot of times when white running groups are like, but there are no Black people here. I'm like, first of all, there probably are Black people in one side of town that you may not visit. Second of all, start to wonder why that is. And then start to think about, well, what are your local city housing policies, right? Like, zoning is essentially segregation and housing, federal housing policies revisited, right? The way that cities and towns are zoned is such that Black and brown and racialized folks are not allowed into communities.
Anyway, the point is, what I'm seeing is that Black and brown people are, again, reclaiming and taking control of their own health and their own spaces and saying, well, we're just gonna create our own groups. And yes, you're welcomed, but the experiences and stories that we're gonna tell, it's gonna center us, right? And that is such a beautiful thing. When I started Harlem Run in, you know, 10 years ago, I was one of a few. I was the only Black woman leader. And now it brings me such joy to see, when I'm scrolling through Instagram, just the proliferation of all of these groups, and that we are in conversation with each other and supporting each other.
Shireen: That's wonderful. And I've also seen other groups, like outdoor groups. There's one in particular in Toronto that's called Brown Girl Outdoor, and they do collaborative stuff all over the place. And it's not just running, it's like outdoor activities like snowboarding and hiking and camping and different kinds of things that's opening it up. But I think it's really good to challenge this notion, well, this is for white people, opening up as opposed to, you know, creating it within your own communities.
Alison: Exactly.
Shireen: And sort of centering that community, as opposed to saying, well, we're gonna create an offshoot – which is still centering the whiteness.
Alison: Exactly.
Shireen: Because I mean, in many traditions, you know, running and these activities that we take for granted could be “white,” are really, you know, intertwined. I know that where I am, I mean, so many of the activities we think of are actually Indigenous traditions.
Alison: I'm getting goosebumps, because I'm thinking about this organization called Earth in Color was sharing this quote from Bell Hooks about farming, right? And of course there's this one idea of farming that is just a disgusting memory of Black people in slavery, right, and the kind of farming that Black folks had to do. But Black folks have actually been farmers for forever, from time immemorial. Indigenous folks have been farmers, right? Black and Indigenous people have fished. We've hunted. We’ve done all of the things, but all of those activities have been co-opted as like white people shit, as we say, because they've come to signify that you have access to space, that you have freedom to move outside, that you have access to resources. Like, when the national parks was segregated and told Black people you couldn't do certain things, well, that is what led to this feeling that we can't be in public parks, right?
Shireen: Yeah.
Alison: When Black people are lynched for doing everyday things in the outdoors, well, that is what led us to this fear of being outdoors and saying we don't do that, right? Like, this idea of what we do and what we don't do really is generational trauma coming up for us. It’s saying, wait a second, bad things have happened when we went into the forest, bad things have happened when you run down the street, so we don't do that.
Shireen: Or you run at night – the one colleague of yours or friend of yours who ran in the day, like morning morning hours.
Alison: Exactly. Exactly.
Shireen: Because the idea of safety. And I mean, I keep coming back to that, because physical, spatial safety is an important piece in my life, where there have been attacks, increased attacks on Muslim women and you know, visibly Muslim women. Something that I think about, and for a really long time, Alison, I'll be straight up with you, is last June, a family, a Muslim family, was going for a walk in the evening, they were run down in London, Ontario by a white supremacist in a truck. And it took me a really long time to go for a walk again.
Alison: I mean, I feel for you so deeply, because these are things that, you know, you begin to question…And I can speak for my own experience. You begin to question, like, can I just change myself? Like, what is the thing? Maybe I should just stop going outside or maybe I should, for me with my locs, maybe I should cut off my hair. Maybe I should always dress a certain way, right? Like, you start to think about all the things that you should be doing, which is so dysfunctional and destructive, because we are not the problem. And I hate that, right? That is why I'm sharing this story in so much personal detail, because I want people to see I'm not the problem. Like, the world needs to change. And we actually have the tools to make that change.
Shireen: Yeah. And I thank you so much. I haven't been moved from a book like this since I read…Which is something actually I wanna send you. It's called White Tears/Brown Scars by Ruby Hamad, because it changed…Like, there's a couple books that have been transformative for me, and I'm not even a runner, so, y’all, you know I don't like running. [laughter] There's this player, Alex Ovechkin, and he actually has this shirt that says, “running sucks.” And I wanna get it, because I'm like, ugh. Those who know me know I don't like running. [Alison laughs] But I just appreciated your book so much, and I'm so grateful to you. But I do wanna send you Ruby Hamad's book.
Alison: Please, please!
Shireen: Because you talk about that, how white woman tears immerse in places where there's conversations, and if anything, it was such a magnificent way that you shared that, that I will be using your book in my class.
Alison: Oh, yay!
Shireen: Yeah, absolutely. I was like, if this came out in August, it would be on my syllabus already. [Alison laughs] But that doesn't mean I can't, you know, take an excerpt and teach it now. I am so grateful to you, Alison, for writing this book, but also being on Burn It All Down. We're huge fans, you know that.
Alison: Thank you, Shireen. Can I…Wait, can I share a story?
Shireen: Yeah, of course!
Alison: I have to say that when…So, I've been on this podcast before, and I remember when Amira reached out, like, you all are just like rockstars to me. I could not stop telling my partner, like, “They wanna speak to me!” [laughs] And I'm just so thankful that you have created this space and that you're doing the work that you're doing, because it is so disruptive and it is so needed. And the fact that this book resonated so much with you is such a win for me. I've been keeping this note in my phone of…I’m calling it Positive Vibes, and I compile things that I receive from people, things that people say about my book, in anticipation of the not so great feedback, right? And so anytime I'm confronted with something that will be racist or that will be untrue or harmful, I'm gonna return and say, look, you are loved. [laughter] So, adding you to that note.
Shireen: Oh, thank you so much. It's so sweet of you to say. And I was telling you this before we started recording, that the genesis of you coming was so natural, and how often and at a grassroots level we found you, because there's not, as you said, there's not a lot of other people in this space. There's people who are really stalwarts in these spaces, and you're one of them. So, you know, we could do this love fest all day.
Alison: I know! [laughs] How much time do you have?
Shireen: You were so wonderful and we are so lucky to have you. And you know, the way again that you share your story is…It’s a beautifully written book, and I'm so grateful because I'm like, well, I know for Eid presents this is what's everyone's getting this year.
Alison: Oh, yes!
Shireen: Every year I have books that I give, and I'm like, this year it's gonna be this one. Where can our listeners find you and your work?
Alison: Yep. You can find me on my website, alisonmdesir.com. My Instagram is the same, my Twitter's the same. And you can buy this book wherever books are sold. If you wanna buy it from your local bookstore, you can absolutely do that. And I will be all across the country in the next three to four months. So, I hope to see you in person at one of these book tour events.
Shireen: That would be amazing. And when is the actual publication day?
Alison: October 18th. October 18th. The book will be available everywhere. Many folks outside of the publishing industry don't know pre-orders are everything. I think it's like, it's such a gimmick. This is just how the system works. So we gotta play with the system. Pre-orders determine essentially the book's success. So, buying in advance, absolutely buying it pub week is just really important to ensure that this book has longevity and gets to as many places as I hope it will.
Shireen: Yes, everybody, heard it here. Please pre-order. Eid isn't until a couple months, but imma do it now.
Alison: Yes. [laughs] That's it! Keep it in your closet. [laughter]
Shireen: Great Christmas present. Great everything present. It’s the high holidays right now. Good present for everything. Halloween's coming up. Would be great for... [laughs]
Alison: Also a good present for Halloween. [laughter]
Shireen: Anyways, again, thank you so much. I keep thanking you, but I'm really, really grateful. It's wonderful to talk to you and to see you in person.
Alison: I know. Well, hopefully Toronto gets added to the list and we’ll do a high five/hug, whatever feels comfortable.
Shireen: I'm a hugger, so, if it's okay with you.
Alison: Good. Bring it in. [laughs]
Shireen: If Toronto's on your list, you know I'm gonna be there. So, that would be amazing. So again, thank you so much, and we'll talk to you soon.
Alison: Talk soon.
Shireen: That's all for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg, and Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. Of course, thank you, thank you, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world to us. And if you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. We could not do this without you. Burn on, and not out.