Episode 257: When Beloved Legends Say Goodbye
Burn It All Down is Back from summer break! In this episode Lindsay Gibbs, Amira Rose Davis, Shireen Ahmed and Jessica Luther talk about the huge retirement announcements that have happened this summer. But first, they share their favorite Serena moments from her 27 year tennis career.
Then, they reflect on the retirement of the GOAT, Serena Williams; the most decorated US track and field athlete, Allyson Felix; WNBA rebound leader and indomitable center, Sylvia Fowles; WNBA assists and career-starts leader, Sue Bird; and F1 racing legend, Seb Vettel. They discuss the ways these athletes dominated their sports, broke barriers on and off the field of play, and changed the world.
Following this discussion, they preview a special Patreon segment where they talk about Shireen's summer wedding and Amira's ESPY experience. Then, you'll here a preview of this week's interview about the WNBA playoffs with Maggie Hendricks of Bally Sports.
Next, the burn some of the worst in sports this summer on the Burn Pile. Then, they celebrate those shining light, including Torchbearer of the Week, Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce, the Jamaican sprinter who won a record-setting fifth world championship in the 100m dash, with time of 10.67 seconds.
They wrap up the show with What's Good and What We're Watching In Sports this week.
Please vote for Burn It All Down to present at SXSW!: https://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/125283
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Links
Serena Williams Says Farewell to Tennis On Her Own Terms—And In Her Own Words https://www.vogue.com/article/serena-williams-retirement-in-her-own-words
Allyson Felix’s Retirement Plan Has Already Started: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/22/sports/allyson-felix-retirement.html
Allyson Felix on How Motherhood Made Her an Activist: https://time.com/6155896/allyson-felix-motherhood-activism-women-of-the-year
Sylvia Fowles’s Final Ride and the Last Days of a Legend: https://www.theringer.com/wnba/2022/8/11/23301315/sylvia-fowles-minnesota-lynx
Sylvia Fowles: ‘Why Do I Have to Work Twice as Hard Just to Get Noticed?’ https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/08/sports/basketball/sylvia-fowles-wnba-retiring.html
Transcript
Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Burn It All Down, the sports podcast that you all want and need. I'm Lindsay Gibbs. We are back from summer vacation and ready to roll. Joining me is Jessica,
Jessica: Hi!
Lindsay: Amira,
Amira: Hi!
Lindsay: And a dancing Shireen.
Shireen: Hello!
Amira: We're back, [to the tune of Backstreet’s Back] BIAD’S back, all right!
Lindsay: Woo!
Jessica: Wow. That was Amira really indulging Shireen for you all. [laughter]
Lindsay: I dunno how much indulging that was. Amira looked like she enjoyed that a lot. [laughter]
Shireen: I loved it. I loved every second of that.
Lindsay: A couple of quick announcements at the top of the show. Starting next week, we're gonna be flipping our episode days. So, interviews will be out on Tuesdays. The conversational main episodes will be out on Thursdays. Should really not impact your life that much. [laughter] Really, we'll still be in your feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And also just wanna say that we wanna be at South By Southwest. So, there is a Burn It All Down making a feminist sports podcast, if you're interested in seeing us at South By Southwest, there's a link in our show notes, I think is what they're called, and on social media and everything, where you can vote for us. I know you might be excited to hear what we did on our summer vacations. Well, that will be on Patreon. So, we'll be excited to share that with you all on Patreon.
This week, we're gonna be talking about how we're saying goodbye to legends. As you might know, we've got some big retirements coming up. Of course, we've got a burn pile, which has been simmering for about six weeks, so we are ready to go. And torchbearers, and what's good. So stick with us. First of all, though, one of the retirements is Serena. We could all talk about Serena for about 10 episodes straight, but we just wanna go through our favorite Serena moment. Pick one. Can we do this? This is the challenge. [laughter] Jess?
Jessica: Yeah, I totally can. This is my favorite. It's the Australian Open 2007. Serena, she was like going through this rough patch in the years leading up to it. Her sister, Yetunde Price, had been murdered. Serena had injuries. She went into this Australian Open unseeded, and as the commentators would not shut up about, a little bit heavier. And as they kept saying, not as fit. She then ran through six seeded players, including #1 Maria Sharapova, in 63 minutes in the final to win the whole damn thing. It's just one of the most amazing sporting feats that I have ever seen in my whole life. And so it is often one of the first things that I think about her.
Shireen: Mine is not of necessarily the athletic type, but one of my Serena moments, favorite ones, is when she was in Lemonade. She was in Beyoncé's Sorry from 2016, in that video. And she's on her throne, she's twerking in stilettos and a cat suit. And you are like, just all hail her. We know this, but to see it in this visual, creative, epic form was incredibly moving. The thought behind it, her being herself, like, I loved every second. When you think about the juxtaposition of how tennis is supposed to be white and you can't do this…And remember all the shit that broke out when she crip danced, like, it was, so beautiful and authentic to see her there. I'm gonna cry. Sorry.
Lindsay: Yeah, mine…Look, I'm just gonna be selfish. I was at the 2013 US Open final when she beat Vika. It was a three setter. It was electric, and I loved it. I love…There’s the dominant Serena, right? Like, the one that's just like 6-0, 6-0 in semifinals, right? And just has everyone, you know, bowing down. I love when we see her struggle. I just love seeing her figure out days when she's not her best, when you're like, oh, she's not actually a superwoman. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that like in like a complimentary way, like, this isn't automatic for her and she has to figure it out. So, I was there 2013. And so that's the best one. [laughs]
Amira: I am also a fan of any Serena-Beyoncé matchup, whether Bey's in the box, or Serena's in a video. But Jess took mine, because I also am a fan of ‘07 in the Australian Open, but I wanted to go back to Australia so I chose the 2017 Australian Open, which saw Serena get number 23 versus her sister, versus Venus. And Jess was saying this just the other day, like, the fact that we got in 2017 an all-Williams final speaks to the longevity of both of their careers. And then of course, after she won that and made it to 23, that news that came out following it, that she had done it while pregnant, was just like an extra cherry on top. It was just beyond mind blowing. And I think that moment of time, that kind of next chapter, it feels very…I know that now we look back and we know that was the last major, but also it felt very much like a new Serena chapter that we were all getting to witness. And that is still just miraculous.
Lindsay: It's been a huge month of goodbyes in women's sports. Allyson Felix officially retired after the world championships last month. Sylvia Fowles, best center in WNBA history, played in her final game on Sunday when the Minnesota Lynx were eliminated from the playoffs. We’ve got Sue Bird of the Seattle Storm, who will be, you know, done whenever the Storm end their playoff run. And then of course, last week, Serena Williams, we knew it was coming, but she announced that she will be hanging up her racket after the US Open.
Serena Williams: Thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. It’s been a joy playing in front of you guys all these years. [crowd cheers] So thank you. It's just been so memorable. You know, like I said in my article, I'm terrible at goodbyes, but goodbye! [crowd cheers]
Lindsay: Today, we wanna give some love to all these four legends, and a bonus legend you'll hear Amira talk about later. Little moments individually, and then we wanna talk about their impacts on their respective sports, the world as a whole. And we're really gonna try not to cry. [laughs] So, Jess, I have to get you to get us started on Serena.
Jessica: On Tuesday, August 9th, Vogue published a piece in which Serena said she is very near to the end of her tennis career. It's a really beautiful piece and I suggest everyone read it if you haven’t. In it, she talks about wanting to expand her family with Alexis, that Olympia really wants a big sister and Serena wants her to have that. She talks about loving her work with Serena Ventures, which is a venture capitalist company that focuses on investing in women and people of color in tech. And of course, she reflects on her career and this moment of change for her. She mentions learning from watching her big sister Venus, how she came back to tennis after her pregnancy. Let me read that line. “I went from a C-section to a second pulmonary embolism to a grand slam final. I played while breastfeeding. I played through postpartum depression.” That's incredible. She discusses trying to blaze a path that would make it easier for those coming behind her, which I think we could all agree she did very well. US Open starts on August 29th. She didn't technically say that would be it, but I'm with Lindsay. This is it. Lindsay, what stood out to you about this article announcing that she's finished playing the sport?
Lindsay: It was how hard it was clearly for her to say this, you know? I mean, we all know, like, she's been hanging on for a while. And, you know, she had that bad injury at Wimbledon last year. And I think there were a lot of times where we wondered, like, will we see her again, right? Like, it would be very…At a certain point, time does catch up with you, even though, you know, it seems like you've defied it for so long. But to me it was just really emotional to see her wrestling with it. She didn't wanna say the word retirement. She said she didn't like that word. You know, I feel like she felt bitter that she had to even say anything at all. You know, the fact that, you know, to give her daughter a sibling, she wrestled with the fact that if she was a man, this wouldn't be the case, even though, of course, not many men play into their forties in competitive tennis either. But it's different. She doesn't wanna let go. And I wish she was more at peace, but I also understand that, like, this might be just like a part of her piece, right? But it was tough. I was more emotional because I think I'm used to retirement announcements where they've already made peace with it before the announcement. And she very much was trying to make some peace with it during the announcement. And that's hard, because I don't wanna see Serena sad.
Jessica: I think she literally says there's no happiness in this announcement for her, which is really powerful. I do appreciate that she used this language of evolution. She's so smart. She wrote, “I'm here to tell you that I'm evolving away from tennis toward other things that are important to me.” And I like that so much because there's a forward motion to it. There's a continuing, but also a new start. Like, I think we're all interested to see what post-tennis Serena will be like. And we know that she's thinking deeply about that as well. And using that language was so…She’s good at this.
Lindsay: Just really quickly, another word that…She does admit that like tennis has always felt like a sacrifice. She said, though, “It's one I enjoyed making.” And I think no matter what your love is, when you choose to give your all to one thing, you're choosing not to give your all to another thing. You know what I mean? Like, you're constantly making these choices.
Amira: We talk about transitions. We talk about aging and evolution in a myriad of ways in this show in our own lives. But I think that reality of athletics, of like the bodily exertion that it requires, what it requires to stay fit, you know, as a mother, when you're older. I mean, I'm 34, and my lower back…Like, everybody was using that meme of Britney this weekend, “my lower back is killing me.” And like, I saw it everywhere. And thinking about what it means to age as an athlete and to have that coupled with things like family planning and evolving interest. But I, like Lindsay, was so impacted by the very public wrestling with it. And even when she says, like, I can't say it out loud, then I cry. I've only talked about this really fully with my therapist, you know? She even mentioned Ash Barty. And I remember how shocked we were.
Jessica: Yes.
Amira: But then listening to Barty talk about her decision-making was almost calming. And this is like, in many ways, the inverse, where it was like shock, but not quite shocking. But instead what we're sitting in is that kind of really hard space of watching, like Lindsay said, her still wrestle with it. But it makes me feel especially like just how hard transition moments are, and coming to terms with closing a chapter of your life, or a version of it. I also was very compelled by the openness of evolution and how it can be omnidirectional. And it's not prescribed in any one direction, and it's not stuck in nostalgia either.
Shireen: Yeah. I, like everybody else…The language here was incredible, but I was also moved by her candor, and her honesty about, you know, not wanting to use the word retirement. But also her love of the sport, but not just the sport itself, not the athleticism – the entertainment. I was really intrigued by that and smiled when I was reading that part because it's incredible that she knows what her power is. And the particular part was when she says, “I love to win. I love the battle. I love to entertain. I'm not sure every player sees it that way, but I love the performance aspect of it, to be able to entertain people week after week.” And that's part of the reason why I find her so compelling, is that ability to manage…Of course, it comes with a lot of responsibility and a lot of stress and everything like that, but Serena knows who she is. And that’s, for me, it sounds so bizarre to say it out loud, like, of course, Shireen, she knows who she is, but she really knows who she is.
And that's something that…I started to watch tennis a long time ago with my grandfather in the 90s. My grandfather loved Venus. And in fact, because of his accent, he couldn't actually say Venus. He used to say Wenus Villiams, because Pakistanis confuse the Ws and the Vs. It was very endearing. And I got to know her through her sister. And I don't follow tennis like everybody else on the panel, but I followed them. So anyways, she knows who she is. I don't know if she knew in the beginning, but she knows now. And to see her write that in Vogue was just, ugh, it was incredible.
Lindsay: So, I guess, just kind of what are our feelings? I know we all love her so much and, you know, what kind of came up for you? And also just kind of what we wanna see these last few weeks as she honestly gave us the gift of being able to say goodbye, kind of, you know? Like during these last…She’ll have a couple, she has a tournament in Cincinnati this week, and then of course the US Open. Jess?
Jessica: I feel like I'm gonna cry just thinking about answering this question. [laughs] So, my feelings were that I cried. I was sad, which felt really weird, because as we've already said, we expected her to retire. Like, we all knew this was coming. And I remember I saw the post and I had to sit down. [laughs] That's wild. And I've been thinking a lot about, like, why am I reacting this way? Y'all, this is ridiculous. Look at this. [sniffles] This is ridiculous.
Lindsay: It's not ridiculous.
Jessica: I know there's something, like…I fit right in between Venus and Serena. Like, Venus is just older than me. Serena is just younger than me. And I came to tennis as a fan, really hardcore in high school. So, just before they broke, right? So, in the real sense of, like, I grew up with them into adulthood, alongside them. And also, I just fucking love watching them play. Like, it's given me so much joy. Like, so much joy, for decades. And so I have, like on some level, I'm just sad about losing that. Even though tennis gives that to me, lots of people in tennis give that to me. But also for me, it's just a real passage of time here, right? So, Serena's evolving, and it's just a reminder, I think, the way that sports can just really mirror your life, the way that you can really track your life with these milestones. And I think what I wanna see is I'm excited about this celebration of her. I hope we get something like this for Venus. I've been thinking a lot about Venus and like what this will mean for her.
Amira: Me too.
Jessica: But I'm going to New York City. I'm gonna be there for the first two days of the US Open because I wanna feel it in real life. I wanna see her play. I wanna see her play. I've never seen her play, which seems wrong to me. Like, just fundamentally, for me and my identity as a sports fan. But I want to feel New York City give her that celebration. And I just, I wanna be there bad enough that I am gonna go. So that's what I am excited about.
Amira: Yeah. When I heard the news, which was because Jess texted me, like, I had to call her immediately, because it's holding space for this, like, all of the joy and the memories and everything tied up in it. I've been thinking a lot about Venus too, because I think what I realized is I always felt like I would have like a buffer, like I was ready for kind of a one slightly two punch of like Venus would mark the end of her playing, and then I would be like on the clock for Serena and like ease into it. And that is not what happened. [laughs] And I'm excited to see what these next few weeks look like. I'm excited to go to New York and watch her play and to make more memories, like Jess said, see that reception. I mean, the US Open already announced the enormous amount of tickets that were sold on the heels of this Vogue piece dropping. So I'm already anticipating that it's fiery, and I hope that she soaks it all in. I'm really enjoying these kind of foresighted retirements that allows people to do a goodbye to her, if you will, like, much better than Coach K's stupid goodbye to her, which is just like a practice in ego. This feels much more like an invitation.
Lindsay: Yeah. One of the things – and we'll talk briefly about what we've seen in the WNBA this year – but I think like we've seen Sue Bird and Sylvia Fowles come to terms with their decision, like, publicly. Do you know what I mean? Like, through these gifts and through these ceremonies, and in a way that I think has been uncomfortable for both of them, but that it ended up helping them, I think. And I hope that this…I hope Serena gets something good from this. Do you know what I mean? Like, I hope she feels it and allows herself to be okay feeling it.
Shireen: I find that, for her, I saw her play…I find it wild, Jess, that you haven't seen her play in person. I didn't know that. I saw her play in 2019 at the National Bank Open in Toronto. And for me, Serena represented something that I've always identified with, is being in a very white space. I mean, maybe that's my life, but just always being in those spaces. And that's something that I could relate to. I wanna say I could relate to her quads, but I can’t, because they're magnificent. And like, I sort of always aspire to them. But for many who are in the margins, you saw that power, whether you were sporty or not, there was a way her creativity, her business prowess, the way she's just magnificent, her vulnerability as a mom. And when she talked about postpartum depression, that...Because I was like, if Serena can do it, it was okay that I had it. And I had it bad after my fourth child. So like, to see her talk about that was, you know, because there's ways in which she has addressed taboos and societal shaming that happens to women, especially racialized women and Black women in particular.
So, the fact that she did that was really moving to be. But the other thing that I think about, and what I hope for her, is that she gets the time to grieve the way she needs to in this process, and that media is…I don't wanna say gentle, because media has never been fucking gentle with Serena, but that she's allowed that space to feel what she needs to feel without the constant encroaching. I don't know. Initially I wrote it's the end of an era, but I don't think so, because part of that era is a continued legacy, and she has inspired, like we've seen Bianca Andreescu, we've seen Leylah Fernandez, Emma Raducanu, Coco Gauff all cite her as the trailblazer. So, it's not the end, it's the beginning for other smaller chapters.
Lindsay: I wanna get more into the motherhood aspect, but I wanna bring in another athlete who has had a big impact on that conversation. First, remind us about the greatness of Allyson Felix.
Allyson Felix: You know, I think for so long I focused on just winning medals and, you know, wanting to focus on that. But really the journey, you know, that's where you grow. That's where you stretch yourself and you become what your goals are all about. And so just to take it all in and learn from the failures and the defeats.
Amira: Allyson Felix is retiring from track and field. Just amazing to watch the illustrious career she has had. Seven Olympic gold medals, three silvers, one bronze. The most decorated female track and field athlete ever with 11 Olympic medals. She's competed in five Olympics, 14 world championships – gold medals, I should say. Three silvers, three bronze. And she has medaled in eight world championships over – wait for this – 17 years. Like, that is the definition of an illustrious and dominant career. And she too has picked this time and this season to evolve past the sport. She's also Jessica's birthday twin, [laughs] and you know how much of fans we are of birthday twins on this show. Allyson, it was actually really a treat, I went to worlds, I missed her last race, but I saw her in LA for the ESPYs. And then a day after that, she actually flew back to Oregon to unretire to run the semis of the 4x4. And somebody tweeted, “Damn, even Allyson gets that text from coach to put you in a relay and she jumps on the plane?” And she retweeted it and joked about it.
But she has talked about what's next for her. Actually wanna shout out Jordan Ligons has a great piece in Romper, an interview with Allyson. And I think that one of the great things about Allyson, like Serena, is we've had the opportunity to watch not only just sheer excellence in the field of play, but watch how, as their lives have evolved, their style has evolved, their training has evolved, but also their reach beyond the sport has as well. And for both of them, advocating for maternal health concerns, for workplace provisions, for childcare. At worlds this year, there was free childcare provided. That is a hundred percent due to Allyson's advocacy. But particularly for Black maternal health outcomes. We know Black women in this country are three to four times more likely to die in childbirth, even when you control for education, for class status, et cetera. And both of them had very, very harrowing pregnancies and deliveries. Camryn, Allyson’s daughter, spent weeks in the NICU.
To see those life circumstances…Both, yes, just their straight athletic comebacks, but to see how it's changed, how they intend to use their platform. And what seems very clear, especially for Allyson, is as she steps into this new chapter, those lessons are what she's bringing forward as she turns this page, to really make sure she continues to advocate for working moms, for Black moms, for athlete moms, and brings the infrastructure along to help those coming behind her. And that's what I'm thinking about as Allyson is saying goodbye.
Lindsay: Yeah, it's been really incredible. I mean, in 2019, she was part of the group, along with Alysia Montaño and Kara Goucher who, with the New York Times in the op-ed section, kind of came forward and talked about Nike's treatment of pregnant women and of mothers and of the contract disputes. And Allyson said that, you know, Nike had wanted to pay her 70% less after her pregnancy and wouldn't contractually guarantee anything in the months surrounding her childbirth. And she said, “If I, one of Nike's most widely marketed athletes, couldn't seek protections, who could?” She ended up signing with Athleta and, you know, since then we've seen Simone Biles and other women in sports sign with Athleta and really work on combining their advocacy, empowering women on a much more, I think, personal level than a big company like Nike can do. And it's really cool. I mean, in 2019, Allyson’s advocacy made things significantly different. Nike announced the new maternity policy, their new contract guarantees for athletes, paying bonuses for 18 months surrounding pregnancy. And other apparel companies did the same thing, followed suits. We don't see concrete change that often, right? [laughs] Like, this is real, real, real concrete change. Shireen?
Shireen: Felix's work on advocating for athlete moms, in my opinion, was just as important as her success on the track. It’s easy to call someone, oh, you label people an athlete activist. But you know, I remember Bilqis Abdul-Qaadir talking about this. She wasn't a willing activist. She unwillingly became one because of the struggles she had. And you know, Felix was Time’s woman of the year. And she was pushing for what mattered to her. And it was actually really critical that she did, because she exposed a massive gap in the health system that was mistreating people who birthed, and particularly Black women. I really feel like her movement there is as poignant and as powerful as her accomplishments on the track.
Jessica: Yeah. I just think it's really interesting when you think about Serena and Allyson together around pregnancy and maternity and athletes, because they both at some point in their goodbyes have mentioned their idea of legacy and wanting it to be bigger than what they're doing as athletes. And Serena wrote, “Over the years, I hope that people come to think of me as symbolizing something bigger than tennis. I admire Billie Jean because she transcended to her sport. I'd like it to be Serena is this and she's that and she was a great tennis player and she won those slams.” And then Felix has said the thing that she is most proud of is all of this stuff around maternity and Nike. And she said, “That's what I'm most proud of. That's what's most meaningful. And at the end of the day, that's the one thing that matters the most.” And I just…They’re just so much bigger than sport. Both of them, what they've done around so many things, but this in particular.
Lindsay: Absolutely. And as are, I think, the next two people we're gonna discuss in different ways, right? Like, they didn't have impact on motherhood in particular, but they had impact in other ways. But of course we wanna talk about Sue Bird and Sylvia Fowles, WNBA legends who are hanging it up after this season. Sylvia Fowles, the great center, drafted number two overall in 2008, right behind Candace Parker. She's 36. 15 seasons, played at the Sky until 2015, and then for the Lynx. With the Lynx, she had two WNBA finals MVPs, a WNBA season MVP in 2017, eight time All Star, four time defensive player of the year, two time champion, and four gold medals. And Sue Bird with the Seattle Storm is still playing, she's in the playoffs.
Bird is 41 years old, which, you know, again, just remarkable. She was drafted in 2002, 21 years in the WNBA. Her entire career in Seattle. 13 time All Star, four time champ, five gold medals. And, you know, Bird is literally the assist leader in WNBA history, and Fowles is the rebound leader in WNBA history. [laughter] So, you know, I mean, to say that these are two of the greatest ever, like, we are not exaggerating, people! These are icons. And Fowles announced before the season that this would be her last. Sue was pretty much assumed, but she made it official about halfway through. It's been very interesting to kind of see these two very different people, very respected people, their goodbyes take place together, but separate. I don't know. Jess?
Jessica: Yeah. Well, they're so interesting, right? Because you've got like this incredible point guard in Sue Bird, and then you have one of the best centers that we will ever have in the WNBA in Sylvia Fowles. But then especially over the last like five years, you know, Sylvia doesn't like attention, I think it's safe to say. She's a very quiet person publicly. And then you've got Sue who's everywhere at this point, in ways that we deeply appreciate. Obviously they grew up in very different places. Like, Sylvia is of the south. Sue is of the northeast. And were huge in college, but again, Sue at UConn, Sylvia down south at LSU, like, they're so different in so many ways. And then the most obvious one, the one that's been on the surface a lot in the discussion around this, is the fact that Sue is white and Sylvia is Black. And in all the ways that we have seen the discrepancy and coverage of W players, it has played out, it feels, a lot over the season, as to who has gotten attention in their retirement.
Shireen: I have a question for y'all about their college experiences that Jess touched on. As mentioned, Sue Bird is storied, UConn, and Fowles being of LSU. How did that help? Did that have a play in the way that their coverage went? Because like, as arguably somebody who came into college ball, women's college ball, UConn was all you heard. Do you know what I mean? For a long time. How do you think that affected where they went and their coverage in their careers?
Amira: I think it's a little chicken and the egg. I mean, part of why UConn got so much attention was it was down the street from Bristol. They had a lot of white girls on the team. Geno was a coach that the media liked to tangle with. So part of what we're talking about in identifying what Jess pointed to as disparities in marketing, in visibility, et cetera, were absolutely at play – and still remain at play – when we're talking about UConn as a program. But LSU, especially when Syl was there and Seimone Augustus, was a dominant program. Of course, Seimone Augustus, it was just announced they were building her statue on campus. There's been now increased lobbying to get Syl a matching one on campus, which would be really, really dope. Obviously, it's been really cool to have Alexis at LSU right now.
To see the way they've been welcoming…Both of those players have come back and really tried to hype up this next generation, because unlike UConn, what happened with LSU is there was a kind of drop in the program, and now it's burgeoning again. And so I think that, to your question, Shireen, that ecosystem of marketing women's ball plays out from college to what we're seeing with the kind of retirement celebrations. Although after it became a narrative, I felt like we also saw a kind of explosion for Sylvia. And it's been great for me personally to see at least in the last week or so coming up to her final game, even if it was belated, an outpouring of love.
Lindsay: Absolutely. I think one of the cool things that Sylvia's done…I mean, everyone’s talked about her hugs, like any media person. And like, I've received a Sylvia Fowles hug, and I can guarantee you, it's just like one of the greatest things in the world. Like, it's not awkward, and she's so warm. I remember being told like specifically, because Big Syl was her nickname for a while, and I think it might have been Cheryl Reeve that was like, no, she doesn't like that. Mama SyI or Sweet Syl. She's got this very maternal, very nurturing presence that does go against the, you know, block queen inside like six-foot-five presence in the post. And that's why she's so special.
But there was a New York Times article where Sylvia addressed the difference in kind of the attention that she got and that Sue Bird got, that why she's not as household of a name. It’s called, Why do I have to work twice as hard just to get noticed? Like she said, 80% of us are Black women, of course in the WNBA. You have to figure out how to market those Black women. And I don't think we do that quite well. It reminded me of a Katie Barnes piece that they wrote on Jonquel Jones for ESPN earlier this year about Jonquel being the MVP and not getting endorsements. And, you know, Jonquel felt that when she was more femme presenting before, she was the MVP, it was easier to get endorsements.
Amira: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things we’ve talked about there is like, who had access to the machine. And so even as the marketing machine around women's ball has evolved, that kind of box you have to fit in to be marketable and seen as not just a franchise player, but like the visible franchise player, and to get the third party endorsements that are gonna bring in lucrative deals or give you that platform, that continues to be ground that Black women and queer Black women, more masculine presenting women in the W are fighting for. And so I think of course with both Sue and Syl retiring at the same time, a lot of that gets thrown back into the spotlight. But I think we'd be remiss to not mention that both of them have been very vocal about that, as many people in the W have been. And I feel like it's an invitation to say, okay, well, here's another example of that. How do we make sure that the next Sylvia Fowles who's coming up gets all of the things that Syl should have.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Just wanna talk about them individually as people really quickly, you know, SyI I think really brought about the age of player empowerment in the WNBA, which she doesn't get nearly enough credit for. She forced herself out of Chicago, out of that contract. And she's never really talked about exactly why, but she just needed a change in her life and was willing to sit out, right? And not play at all. And so it forced Chicago to trade her to Minnesota. That's a huge thing. She's spent her last season knitting hats for everyone close to her, which is just like the sweetest thing I've ever heard! [laughs] So she does get this reputation for being quiet and soft spoken. She doesn't share anything about her personal life at all. You know, and the sweetness. But then…
Holly Rowe: You have been a champion in this building…
Lindsay: Holly Rowe asked her, “What's your legacy?”
Sylvia Fowles: I want my legacy to be dominance. And I think I finished that on this note today. Throughout my career…
Lindsay: She goes, “I want it to be dominance.” And I loved that. And then she voted against this most recent CBA, which, you know, we've seen a lot of holes in. And she was one of the few players to say, no, we even deserve more. And you know, I think she absolutely supported the people who had fought for it. But I think that's a really big point. I think it's really big about who she is. And of course the big thing, we haven't mentioned this yet, but she's gonna be a mortician now. [laughs] So like, she wants to spend the next chapter of her life making dead bodies beautiful and helping care for dead bodies, and helping families grieve and say goodbye. It's incredible.
Whereas Sue, you know, I think it's been interesting to see the conversation about Sue be about like how much media attention she gets, because that's even a fairly new thing. Like, of course she did have a lot easier access to the machine, being white, being more femme presenting, being from UConn, being with the same team in a bigger market, winning championships, all these things. But she still wasn't getting much coverage at all. It's really been these past five years since she's become the assists leader, since her relationship with Megan Rapinoe has really gotten into the spotlight, and since she's become much more comfortable with herself. And I think we'll play a clip here from her goodbye speech in Seattle…
Sue Bird: You guys supported me from day one. 21 year old kid, had no idea what the city was about. I found out very quickly. You supported me. You watched me grow up. I remember a couple years in, some of my teammates wanted to go to The Wildrose. I went with them…
Lindsay: Where she talked about how, early on in her career, a Seattle Storm season ticket holder saw her in a gay bar in Seattle and kind of came up to her and was like, do you wanna be in here? Like, you know what people are gonna think if you're in here. And that kind of like care she got from the community before she was really out.
Sue Bird: But I did wanna acknowledge everyone who made today possible. Not just this moment and having a sold out crowd, but allowing me to be myself. It took me a minute to figure out who I was. [laughs] [crowd cheers] But once I did, I was all right. And you guys allowed me to do that.
Lindsay: Being able to see these athletes evolve and change their impact and grow their voices, it’s such a gift. Amira?
Amira: So, speaking of athletes growing their voices and evolving, the other summer retirement that I've had on my radar is Sebastian Vettel, who is retiring from Formula 1. Seb Vettel is a four time world champion, ranks third on the list of most podium appearances ever. He's only behind Lewis Hamilton and Michael Schumacher, just to give a sense of like how dominant he was. He won his championships straight in a row, and he's only 35. And when he retired, one of the things it made me think of, like we're talking about with everybody, is just how early these athletic retirements come in the scheme of things, and what happens when you start dedicating your life to a sport as a teenager, and you put in 15, 17, 20 years. But Seb Vettel is one year older than me. And it's wild for me to think about like what this represents, just as human beings.
For those of you not into Formula 1, it was very interesting because Sebastian's not on social media. He's like, I'll never make an Instagram. And then he made an Instagram, and for like half an hour, everybody was like, oh my god, he's on Instagram! And then his first and currently only post was his retirement video. So the roller coasters of emotion that day were high. Some of the things I just wanted to highlight from it that really resonated with me and echoed what we heard Serena write about, what we've heard Allyson talk about, is about evolution and evolving away from the sport. He started by listing things about him, like his favorite color and his likes outside of the sport. But he talks about how he had to commit in a certain way to his passion, and he said it no longer goes side by side with other things he wants to be able to do. And he talked about that in a really beautiful way that I really appreciate male athletes having this conversation as well about parenting and that impact on their retirement.
Sebastian Vettel: My goals have shifted from winning races and fighting for championships to seeing my children grow, passing on my values, helping them up when they fall, listening to them when they need me. Not having to say goodbye. And most importantly, being able to learn from them and let them inspire me.
Amira: He ends it very beautifully saying he's looking forward to unknown tracks.
Sebastian Vettel: The marks I left on track will stay until time and rain will wash them away. New ones will be put down. Tomorrow belongs to those shaping today. The next corner is in good hands as the new generation has already turned in. I believe there is still a race to win. Farewell, and thanks for letting me share the track with you. I loved every bit of it.
Amira: I think it's really interesting, because when we talk about the legacy of Serena on tennis or Allyson on track or Sue and Syl on the W, I think about the next generation in those sports are already stepping into these very large shoes that are exiting. And with F1, I don't know who is passing the baton to as the huge advocate that he has been for climate change, for diversity in racing, for women in racing, for bees, for all these things. Him and Lewis Hamilton have really been out front on that. And, you know, Lewis and Seb have talked about wanting to see this next generation kind of pop up and fill those shoes. But I think it's hard, you know? It took Seb a while in his career to get to that place.
But I feel like that sport is losing a huge advocate. And so it'd be really interesting to see what happens to advocacy in that sport with one of their biggest vocal people gone. Even some of the drivers have come out and said, well, can you just stay on as our representation? He's the union, the players rep. And thinking about like literally what it shifts to sports infrastructure when you lose powerful athlete advocates. And for all of the people that we've talked about, the shoes that they're leaving to fill are enormous. And we see the impact and inspiration that they have created on their sports, beyond their sports, in our memories, in our hearts. And transitions can be messy and they can be hard, but there's also a great deal of beauty in them. And so happy trails to all these legends who are turning the page to a new chapter.
Lindsay: Flamethrowers, we got a special Patreon segment this week, which will be about what we did on our summer vacation.
Shireen: I wanted to go to Popeye’s, because that's where our first day was. But like, I got overruled.
Lindsay: I didn't know your first day was at Popeye’s. [laughs] That's great.
Shireen: He gave me his last chicken tender, and I was like, this is somebody worth thinking about seriously, because I had already had all…
Lindsay: A lot of good things from my co-hosts. So if you wanna listen to that, head on over to patreon.com/burnitalldown. This week for our interview, I'm gonna be talking with Maggie Hendricks of Bally Sports previewing the WNBA playoffs, which will start on Wednesday night.
Lindsay: All right, friends, burn pile time. Shireen, you wanna get us started?
Shireen: I've had a very happy summer, but this shit is extreme. So, I don't know how many have been following the fact that Hockey Canada is imploding in many ways. And, well, the first thing that I will burn is the fact that senior executives of that organization have not stepped down, despite the fact they lost federal funding. They literally lost funding from the government of Canada who allots a certain amount annually to them. And the reason for that is, in 2018, a woman alleged that she was sexually assaulted by multiple members of the Canadian men's world junior hockey team. And as a result, she was given a settlement offer, very hush-hush, by the CEO and COO of the organizations, both of whom are still in their positions. Now, the way that this was done, as opposed to an investigation, as opposed to doing things properly, the young woman was given money. She's reached out…She did cooperate with the police. You know, her lawyer has spoken and said that she has done what she was supposed to. She is scared. She is overwhelmed, and this is a huge burden. And she's being re-traumatized constantly.
Now, in the meantime, this all came to a head before a parliamentary hearing in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, in front of different members of parliament, including Pascale St-Onge, who is the minister of sport for Canada. and Pascale St-Onge was livid. She then pulled the funding, as I mentioned, for Canada Hockey. This is all happening in July. I'm on my honeymoon, y’all, and I'm trying to avoid news, and I'm hearing this because you can't avoid it, right? Then what happens is Canada Hockey decides to host the world juniors this month, right now, in Edmonton, Alberta. And I did write a column about this last week, but I'm so incensed that A) those exacts are still there. Of course, out of eight board members, two were women. Five are white men. This is horrific.
And since 1989, there have been a slew of settlements by Hockey Canada, and the money that Hockey Canada uses to settle the allegations out of court comes from the fees that hockey players all over Canada pay. House league players, rec players, recreational hockey players, little kids, when their family pay fees. That's where that money comes from. If you think about how disgusting and how rotten this is to the core…How about you fucking fix the violent sexual assaults and the way that the system of violence carries forth continuously, instead of paying money and not recognizing what needs to be done. And very much these are the same people that have been in these positions for a very long time. I'm not against having an opportunity to support women's programs and development programs for youth.
But what I'm saying is those that are making the decisions are fucking terrible. And no, I'm not trying to take away Canada's identity, which I've been accused of, by saying, no, I'm sorry, Canada should not fucking be hosting anything. Their house is a mess. There is an absolute crisis with hockey in this country, and attacking women and thinking that that's okay, let's just give them fees that young players, peewee players play. And if you're a hockey fan and you don't see how problematic that is, I implore you to sit back and think about it. This is a disgrace. It’s unacceptable. It's unfair to hockey and the genuine players and coaches and staff that are out there. And at the same time, the fact that the government of Canada pulled that funding means that it is going to affect the women's program, because that's where they get the majority of their money from. So I wanna take all of this and I wanna burn it to the ground. Burn.
All: Burn.
Lindsay: All right. I'll go. So, because time is a flat circle, we are still burning Deshaun Watson. If you need a reminder, Watson has been accused of sexual assault and other inappropriate conduct during massage sessions, in civil lawsuits filed by 25 women. These encounters took place from March 2020 to March 2021 while he was a member of the Houston Texans. And Jenny Vrentas over the New York Times found that he actually met at least 66 women for massages over a 17 month period when he was with the Texans. But despite all this, the Browns traded for Watson in March, sending three first round draft picks to Houston and giving him a new $230 million fully guaranteed contract. Couple weeks ago, an independent arbiter appointed by both the NFL and the NFLPA, Sue L. Robinson, announced that Watson was suspended for six games for violating the league's personal conduct policy.
Okay, so let's break this down. Robinson, who is a retired federal judge, actually did find that Watson had violated the personal conduct policy by engaging in unwanted sexual contact, endangering the safety and wellbeing of another person, and undermining the league's integrity. In a 16 page report, she called his conduct “predatory” and “egregious,” and also specifically called out his lack of contrition, because he is publicly denied everything and offered no apologies. But she also classified his behavior as “nonviolent,” which is confusing to me because I really had not heard of nonviolent sexual assault. And she said that she was limited in how long she could suspend him because of past punishments and precedent set by the NFL. Well, the NFL is trying to set a new precedent and have appealed the ruling of six games. According to the New York Times, they are arguing for an indefinite suspension with the option of restatement after a year. We could find out any day now.
But the really, really egregious thing here is that the Browns, who you might think would like to keep Watson kind of, you know, behind the scenes a little bit, decided he would start in their pre-season game over the weekend and put him out on their social media accounts, the Browns' official channels, where he finally kind of apologized. He said, “The decisions I made in my life that put me in this position, I would definitely like to have back.” [laughs] Hello, passive voice. “But I want to continue to move forward and grow and learn and show that I am a true person of character. And I'm going to keep pushing forward.” This is just all so fucking gross. He got the headlines he wanted. All over the ESPN scroller it said, “Deshaun Watson apologizes.” Would he have apologized if like his specific lack of apology wasn't mentioned as being part of the reason he was suspended? No! And for the Browns to put him out there, to issue this bullshit, to let him start the preseason game, the meaningless preseason game, it just shows how little they give a shit. We know how little they give a shit, and yet they keep surprising me by how little they give a shit. Burn, burn, burn.
All: Burn.
Lindsay: Jess?
Jessica: Really happy to be back burning things. This week, it's the Irish Rugby Football Union's new policy banning transgender women from competing in women's rugby. This decision came soon after England's rugby football union decided to do the same, which was a reversal on their part. I'd like to think front of the show Shane Thomas for bringing this to my attention. For England, this affects a whopping six players. In Ireland, two. Eight people across two countries. Both groups are basically following guidance from the World Rugby Alliance whose anti-trans policy I burned almost 90 episodes ago, almost two years ago in September 2020. On some level, me burning this just feels fucking redundant. And I do pause in my preparation and question saying these same things again. But that's bullshit. I'm calling it all myself, because we gotta continue to speak out about this very blatant, very horrific discrimination.
I'd like to repeat something I said back in 2020 about the World Rugby Alliance's policy that the Irish Rugby Union and England's rugby football union's policy is based on. Quote, “Sean Ingle had a follow up piece earlier this week at the Guardian. Turns out, 84 academics from a range of fields, including sport, public health, and sociology signed a letter saying there's no actual evidence that trans women pose a safety risk to cis women. So these groups will continue to yell that this is about science, about safety, and it's not. It is not. It’s barely about any actual trans women playing rugby in real life! It's just about indulging transphobia, which is a comfortable thing to do in society's built on transphobia, on these strict binary gender divides.” So I'm here to burn all this shit again, and we will keep burning it. And if you're getting tired of hearing about it, imagine fucking living with this constant dehumanization and questioning of your right to exist in this world. I hate it, and I want to set England and Ireland's rugby football union's discriminatory anti-trans policies on fire. Burn.
All: Burn.
Lindsay: Amira?
Amira: It's been 179 days that Brittney Griner has been detained in a Russian prison. On August 4th, she was convicted, as was expected, following her arrest for a negligible amount of cannabis containers. The US state department of course has labeled her as wrongfully detained. After the sentencing came out – a nine year sentence, which is nearly double the average sentence for this crime in Russia, so even by Russian legal standards, this is excessive – there was a smattering of awful memes and tweets and reactions. Some of them are expected – just racist, sexist, homophobic drivel. Some of them are basic and predictable – pictures of BG protesting, and saying, oh, you thought you were oppressed, now you're in a Russian prison. Some were just like out of left field – folks who were like, well, here are all the Black people in US prisons we should care about. And it's like, yes, I don’t…Yes, we should.
And it's frustrating, because this is not a joke. It's terrifying. The people who wanna point out like, oh, now you wanna ask something of the government? Well, actually, like, you're getting at the heart of the problem. It's like, now we have to trust people we don't trust. I don't trust the state department to do jack shit. And yet they are the ones who are spearheading this campaign to get Brittney home. We knew that a sentence was all, but guaranteed. This morning, as we're recording this, the legal team has filed an appeal, which we also knew. Russia has been very clear that all of this has to happen before there is any conversation about a swap. There has been a proposal. We know all of this backroom backdoor shit is happening.
The fear and the pain is that, what is the priority? Are people actually doing something? Do you need to compel people to do something? Basically, trying to prevent Brittney Griner from becoming disposable in a country that is too eager too often to dispose of Black women, of queer women, of Black queer women. And that is what we're dealing with. So, your memes are unhelpful. Your tweets are ridiculous. All of it is frustrating. And at the end of the day, a whole season has gone by and Brittney is not on the courts. She's not at home with Cherelle. She's not chilling on her couch. She is overseas, detained wrongfully. And I am just mad as hell at people who wanna be so damn glib about that. So I would like to burn that down and send so much love to BG. We remain in your corner and we cannot wait to bring you home.
All: Burn.
Lindsay: Look, just like we had a burn pile that was stacking up, we have torchbearers that we are ready to highlight. Before we get going, Amira, you wanna get us started? We lost somebody very, very special.
Amira: On July 31st, we lost the great Bill Russell. The Celtics great, 11 time NBA champion, died at the age of 88. What can you say about Bill Russell? I mean, he's the blueprint. Civil rights icon, basketball icon. The impact he had on the sport, obviously on the Celtics organization, what he endured while playing both in Boston and beyond. His continued ambassadorship for Black America, for ball, as a pioneer, is the legacy that Bill Russell leaves. Just a giant. We are just losing giants. And he is right up there as one of the biggest ones. So, sleep easy, and rest in peace to Bill Russell.
Lindsay: Shireen, you wanna that get started with our honorable mentions?
Shireen: Solomon Bates, a minor leaguer, has publicly disclosed that he is gay. “I'm a masculine man who loves the sport of baseball. And now I want to open doors for gay athletes like me.” Solomon was the pitcher in the San Francisco Giants system for the Richmond Flying Squirrels. On Instagram, Bates said, “Being gay in this sport, you don't know what comes at you. Baseball, I'm not done with you. I'm leaving on my terms and my terms only.”
Lindsay: Speaking of those coming out, this happened while we were on hiatus, but I wanted to be sure to make note of it. Last month, top Russian tennis player Daria Kasatkina gave an interview with the Russian blogger Vitya Kravchenko in Barcelona where she came out as gay and spoke out against the war in Ukraine, calling it a full blown nightmare. Both statements could put her in serious danger if she returns to Russia, which of course has extremely strict anti-LGBTQ laws and laws discouraging citizens from speaking out against the war. She actually sobbed in the interview and worried about her safety, saying she couldn't even hold her girlfriend's hand in Russia. But she's since been publicly sharing photos with her girlfriend, a Russian figure skater, who actually skates our Canada now. And she's been playing well on the tennis court, making it back into the top 10 for the first time since 2019.
Jessica: Annemiek van Vleuten won the 2022 women's Tour de France, overcoming a brutal stomach flu and mechanical issues, including no less than five bike changes during the eighth and final stage of the tour. This was the first women's Tour de France since 1989. In case you missed it, during our break, I interviewed cyclist Ashleigh Moolman-Pasio and Zwift’s Kate Veronneau about the Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift back on July 21st. Congratulations to van Vleuten, and we are excited about next year's Tour.
Lindsay: Amira?
Amira: Yeah, Eilidh Prise won the Norseman Xtreme Triathlon world championships, which is considered the toughest extreme triathlon in the world. She swam 3.8 kilometers, cycled 180 kilometers, and ran a marathon up of one of Norway's highest mountains – and they have a lot of mountains in Norway – [Lindsay laughs] all in under 12 hours. She told BBC Scotland, “For me, it wasn't a race. It was an individual battle of survival. I never had any expectations of winning.” At the mountaintop plateau, the temperature was 2 Celsius. That's 36.5 degrees Fahrenheit. You're swimming in a fjord for almost 4 kilometers. That's two and a half miles. And it was 13 degrees Celsius. That's 55 degrees Fahrenheit. Prise trained for the race while working a full-time job and without a coach or sponsors.
Lindsay: Whew! Literally, because we've been off for so long, I think all of these are actual torchbearers, but I picked one. Can I get a drumroll, please?
[drumroll]
We have Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce at the world championships in Oregon last month. Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce won the 100 meter final in 10.67 seconds to capture her record-setting fifth world championship medal. Then, two weeks ago, she ran the fastest 100 meters of the year, clocking 10.66 seconds at the Diamond League in Poland. And just last week, the 35 year old Jamaican won the 100 meter dash in 10.62 seconds at the Monaco Diamond League. She's the first woman to break 10.7 seconds six times in one season. That's six times! And just a reminder, since we're talking about motherhood this episode, that in 2017 she had an emergency C-section when she had her son Zyon and took two years away from the track to rehabilitate.
Lindsay: I think most of our what's good is gonna be in our Patreon segment. We're gonna go deep. Our lightning round what's good is just that we're back. I'm just so happy to be back. I've missed you all. And I know Shireen, you wanted to say something on the main episode? [laughs]
Shireen: I got married.
Lindsay: Yay!
Lindsay: Woo!
Shireen: [laughs] I got married to someone who works with the Toronto Raptors. So, I mean, if I didn't love them enough before, it sealed the deal. I'm so sorry to Tim Duncan. I couldn't wait for you.
Lindsay: But to hear about that, to hear about Amira’s ESPYs! Amira Rose Davis wrote for the ESPYs. I don't know if anyone knew. Stay tuned to our Patreon. What we're watching this week: WNBA playoffs is what I'm gonna be watching, so I haven't thought about much else. But there's a lot of great women's soccer going on.
Jessica: Tennis in Cincinnati!
Lindsay: Tennis in Cincinnati, Serena's goodbye tour, and we're all excited. Anyways, that's it for this week of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe, rate on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, and TuneIn. We've got show links and transcripts at burnitalldownpod.com, and you'll find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. Burn on, and not out.