Interview: Brenda Elsey, Co-Author of Futbolera, on the Women's Copa America Tournament

In this episode, Lindsay Gibbs interviews BIAD's own Brenda Elsey, Associate Professor of History at Hofstra University and co-author of Futbolera: Women, Sports, and Sexuality in Latin America. about the 2022 Women's Copa America tournament. They discuss tournament play, including Brazil's 1-0 victory over host-country Colombia in the final. The also talk about the challenges that women's football clubs in Latin America face in getting representation, equity and safety in the game.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Lindsay: Hi, flamethrowers. Lindsay Gibbs here. Welcome back to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. This is the last week where we are just hosting an interview episode. We will be back from our summer vacation next week. And I don't know, I'm kind of cheating this week, because this week for my interview, I brought on my co-host, Brenda Elsey. Hi, Bren. 

Brenda: Hi. 

Lindsay: So first of all, before we get going, I just wanna remind everyone to support us on Patreon. For less than a cup of coffee, that keeps us going and keeps things possible. And we've got some really exciting things coming to you all for the rest of the year. So, you know, all of your help is really amazing. But today the reason I wanna talk to Bren is because, as many of you know, we had a lot of soccer tournaments this summer, all the federations having their World Cup qualifying tournaments. And I've heard a lot of talk about CONCACAF, which the US won over Canada – just reminding that in case Shireen's listening. And then of course there was big in the Euros with England winning, and I guess bringing it home, is that what we're saying? [laughs] I wish everyone could see Brenda's face. It looks exactly like you think it would look right now. [laughter] But anyways, I heard less chatter in English media – which, as someone who unfortunately only speaks English, that is what I listen to – about what was happening at the Copa América, where Brazil beat Colombia in Colombia. And so Bren is the expert. If you have not read her book, Futbolera, go get it right now. I reference it at least every other month, and I don't reference books. [laughs] Because I don’t read much.

Brenda: That's so sweet.

Lindsay: So it's a must read. So Bren, thanks so much for using some of your summer vacation to talk to me.

Brenda: Thanks for having me on this incredible show. This is my favorite podcast. [Lindsay laughs] And they have the best listeners in the world, so.

Lindsay: You know, probably the first time you've been just a guest, but look, we got so much expertise in our crew. And the thing is, when we miss doing our weekly shows, we miss a lot. And I knew when we came back, we're probably not gonna have a good 20 to 30 minutes just to talk about Copa América, so. [laughs] 

Brenda: No, I appreciate it, because definitely you could, I mean, we could start with the fact that there was very little in terms of people's excitement around this tournament, and it took place exactly at the same time as the women’s Euros.

Lindsay: Let’s start there. Let's start with scheduling. And there's a couple of scheduling things to talk about. Number one, Colombia was the host of this tournament. So, how did that come about? Because Colombia is not, as we will get into in this podcast, not necessarily world famous for their support of women's football.

Brenda: So, the women themselves in Colombia's professional league, this was called the Dimayor professional league, which started in 2017, and unfortunately has been decimated over the past couple of years since COVID by the men who run Colombian football. The women that were taking part several years ago made a bid for the 2023 World Cup and for hosting Copa América. As you know, Australia and New Zealand won the 2023 World Cup. But the women were really integral in thinking that hosting these tournaments would be a spark to help both the professional league and to, you know, get some more support for the national team.

Lindsay: So, they did win this bid, and that's of course when the selection for kind of the host cities and the stadiums came about. And I know that there was some controversy here. And once again, I know we're kind of going back in time, but I had missed all of this. So, which cities did they decide to host these games in and this tournament in? And why was that a little bit controversial? 

Brenda: Okay. So I have no idea literally why they picked these cities, and there's no disrespect to these cities, but not only are they not sort of cradles of football, they're just not that large. [laughs] So my guess is it's because men's professional football has started, and they took the Bogotá and the Medellín stadiums. That would be my guess. Usually men's football does not take place during the Copa America, but because normally they'd be at the World Cup, right? And I'd be complaining that the World Cup is at the same time as the Copa America. That's usually what I do. [Lindsay laughs] And so now I have a new complaint, which is that it's just the professional team that was taking place. And so it was held in Armenia, Bucaramanga and Cali. I mean, Bucaramanga is I think the sixth largest market. Armenia I couldn't even find a statistic on. And Cali is also a smaller city. So, it felt frustrating, you know, very frustrating to me that the capacity were 20,000, 28,000 seaters versus the larger stadiums in Bogotá, and just a larger audience, you know, period.

Lindsay: Absolutely. It's once again, we talk all the time, right? People put these artificial caps on what women's sports can be. So one, I think, you know, Brazil is probably the team we talk about the most on the podcast, and it is the most in the women's football conversation. They won it all. But I wanna talk about the other teams more, but what do you think this win meant for Brazil? And kind of what was your takeaway from where the Brazilian team stands right now?

Brenda: I think everyone was nervous about it being a referendum on Pia Sundehage, right? The Swedish national coach. She coached the US team, and now she's coaching Brazil. This is the first like real stint of a real coach that the Brazilian women have ever had. 

Lindsay: What do you mean by that? 

Brenda: That the only other time there was a coach who was a winning coach who had ever coached women was Emily Lima, and she was fired not even after a year into her start.

Lindsay: Oh, you mean a coach…So, someone who has experience in the women's game specifically. 

Brenda: Or even was successful in the men's game. 

Lindsay: Okay. Gotcha. [laughs]

Brenda: I think either one of those would've felt good. Even youth. Even successful in the youth game, I think. Yeah, period. 

Lindsay: Okay. 

Brenda: They had Vadão, who was a failing coach in the men's game, in the lower levels. And despite players retiring early, you know, over the toxic culture that was there, he just kept getting reappointed. And after seeing the Brazilian women's team really decline in terms of its success, as the rest of the women's team seemed to gain steam, right? It seemed like, you know early 2000s, Brazil was really gonna continue to ascend, and they did not. They really petered out in 2015 World Cup. And, you know, you have the best player in the world, the best player of all time. It's a big game. There's a lot of players. So, you can't really say just because you have one, right? I mean, Portugal's not gonna win the World Cup even if Ronaldo was the best player, which he's not, but if he was. [Lindsay laughs] And so, you know what I mean?

Lindsay: I love that we had to get in a Ronaldo dig. I really appreciate that. [laughs]

Brenda: We had to. We had to. You know, but you have to qualify that a little bit, because I do hear a lot in like NBA talk about how one player, you know, you need a certain kind of player to win, but still. You had so many great players. And so the fact that Brazil won I feel like felt like a relief for people who really wanted to see the decision of the CBF to appoint Pia as a good one. I think that was really a relief. They totally dominated the tournament. They did not give up a goal in the entire tournament, not one. Not one. 

Lindsay: Wow.

Brenda: But the last game was a classic Swedish Pia tactical game. It was not the Brazil that some people might expect, in terms of offensive intensity, though eventually they created more chances. They are not as physical of a team as Colombia. They won 1-0. It was a penalty that was buried by Debinha, which a lot of you probably known from the NWSL. And it was a great penalty kick, but it was surprising how they had just sort of stormed through the tournament. And then it felt as though this game, Pia was just like, this is back to my chess, you know? [laughs] And so they won, not in the most exciting fashion. But it was good. 

Lindsay: And of course, just a reminder that Marta is injured and so of course wasn't on this team. So of course winning without her, is that notable?

Brenda: I mean, it is. I don't first foresee her having the same central role in this World Cup. Then again, she is like the most competitive person I've ever seen. And so who knows. [laughter] 

Lindsay: Right. Yeah. 

Brenda: You know? But no, I think it felt good. I think it's good for morale. I think in some ways the question is, you know, have they relied on Marta too much? And if you listen to like Aly Wagner call some of the Brazil games, and she's very good at doing Copa América and South American teams, she's been doing it now for several years. And actually more than that, like since the last World Cup. She was saying the same thing, you know, it feels like they just have to use more of the set pieces. They have to be a little bit more tactical, and that might just be good for them overall, to not rely on like one, on Marta to like make every play.

Lindsay: Totally. I mean, we've seen that. That's a common thing in sports, right? Like, I think no matter what sport you like, you've seen people rely too heavily on one piece and, you know, forget the rest of the game.

Brenda: Yeah. There's people that will argue she shouldn't play at all. I'm not one of those.

Lindsay: Yeah. [laughter] I'm thinking of some analogous people on the US women's national team, where the conversation is very similar about… [laughter] I’m not gonna name names, but there's some similar conversations happening. So overall, Brazil, in a better place moving forward?

Brenda: I will be fascinated by the Brazil-England game. Fascinated. They're very different teams. So, the winner of the Euros and the winner of South America play each other. Those are the oldest confederations in the world. So, the South American confederation, which is older than the European confederation, which is why football really goes home when it goes there, is going to take place…Oh, it takes place in Europe. That's right. It's gotta be Europe this time, but it hasn't been determined where. So the winners of those two confederations then play each other. This year it was Argentina and Italy for the men. Now it'll be Brazil and England. So these are some classic matchups. This will be really exciting. And so I am really looking forward to that. 

Lindsay: Ooh, we might have to have a watch party. [laughs] That sounds really exciting.

Brenda: I would love it. I would love it. I'm really excited. I will say that the enthusiasm of the English fans unfortunately was not…It had no parallel, unfortunately, in Brazil.

Lindsay: You know what got me thinking about all of this more deeply…Well, there were a few reasons, but you know, one was you had a great thread leading up to the final game and you reminded everyone that, you know, there are not sustainable women's leagues in Colombia or Brazil. So what is kind of the state of fan support for the Brazilian women's team? And is there like, as far as leagues go, where does that stand right now? 

Brenda: Well, it's really hard in the lead up to the men's World Cup. It's hard not to feel like they're overshadowed at this point. And, you know, it's disappointing. I think COVID was used as an excuse to push back on a lot of gains that were made. And unfortunately I feel like it's in the same space that it was in 2018. If there is a bright spot, it's the Mexican league. 

Lindsay: Right. Yes. 

Brenda: The Mexican league has been doing great. I mean, I think everyone is so thrilled. I am so sad that they are actually not going to the World Cup. So, it is really, really, really upsetting for those of us that have been so excited about the Mexican league. But it's gonna continue, I really think, to be great. They have a great sponsor in BBVA Mexico. I believe it's just now opening to foreign nationals and dual citizens. If it continues to do well, I really believe that BBVA may sponsor other women's teams in the continent. So, the state is bleak, to be honest with you, in South America. The Colombian league really kind of crashing and burning. Brazilian league not really getting off the ground. Still no representative in all South America that is a representative of women's football or a woman identified person. All cis male control over South American football. So, no representation whatsoever. So I don't expect it to change, unfortunately. And you know, the lead up to getting into a men's World Cup is an 18 month process. You know, this is a three week tournament. That's all the exposure they're gonna get.

Lindsay: That's very, very infuriating. 

Brenda: It is. 

Lindsay: How is, like for the national team, what's the state of pay for Brazil, and support that they’re…Because I know they've been fighting for more.

Brenda: Yeah. So, they have equal pay now to the men, which isn't like fully disclosed. It doesn't come out in like a lawsuit. But again, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The men will be convened umpteen times more than the women. So your pay is for the days that you're convoked and the day that you're playing. So they'll say, oh, we have equal pay. And it is good. It's not nothing, right? But there's no way that it equals the same amount. Now, if the federation responds to friendly invitations, if the federation decides – all these federations, the Colombian federation, the Brazilian and the Argentine – if they are to respond, they have the capacity to be convened more and to make a more decent wage. But as it is now, it is very low. We know that. And the last we knew from Argentina, it was $9 a day. And that was in 2018, and they went on strike because they weren't paid. We learned that they upped that maybe to like $15, 16 a day. [laughs] I see Lindsay shifting in her seat. It's very little. The toll you will pay to get there will be more..

Lindsay: Did they say we almost doubled it? Is that what they say? [laughs]

Brenda: Probably, probably. Now, the Argentines, again, the Argentines have tried very hard to push their federation to subsidize a professional league. So, the federation has subsidized a little bit of a professional league. You can't really live on it, but there are moves to try it. They are paying them something. And before it was just totally in kind labor. Like, you work in the club, you clean up the club. You know what I mean? We'll pay you a kind of honorarium. And so it is, I would say, if you were to look at a graph, it would overall look better than it did 10 years ago. It's just frustrating that it hasn't happened with the speed that they deserve. And like how many generations are you gonna go through that have to have subpar treatment? So it's like, yes, it's getting better, but like, geez. Okay. I'm still thrilled to see Argentina in. I love them as a team. And to see Banini called back after she had complained about the Argentine federation, she had been banned from the team. She got kicked off the team right away, even though she was captain at the World Cup. And to see her play again under the new coach was really exciting. So, I think there's good things afoot. 

Lindsay: And they did qualify for the World Cup from this tournament, right? 

Brenda: Yes. Because they were third. 

Lindsay: They were third. Right. So that's great. Yeah. Okay. So, before we go back to Argentina, let's talk about the runner up and the host, because they know there's a lot going on with Colombia that you mentioned, that it was the women who fought to have this when they had a league. What’s happened since that league? Why has that league kind of fallen off? And what has the treatment been like from the leaders of the federation to the Colombian women? 

Brenda: It's horrible. I would say it's the worst in the Americas. Of all of the Americas, the Colombia Federation is the worst, and that's saying something. And that begins…I mean, even in 2019, the youth national team. There were three players that filed criminal charges against the federation because of sexual abuse. And they have not provoked any structural or systemic change in the federation. All the top brass are in place. It is totally linked with their corruption. They were also convicted of corruption several times, [laughs] and they were in the FIFA papers, you know, and basically diverted development money that was meant for those women into the men's side and into their own pockets. And they still have not…Ramón Jesurún and the same people remain in place in the federation.

Three of their top players, their very best players, started speaking out in 2015, and as retribution were not playing. So it is infuriating to hear someone call that final – and I don't know the dude's name or anything, I watched on Fubo, but whatever. To hear them call that match between Brazil and Colombia and not mention that like Natalia Gaitán, who was their captain, you know, Yoreli Rincón, Isabella Echeverri, who all continue to play professional football in Europe, are not in that team. And like, the only reason is retribution.

Lindsay: My blood is boiling, and this isn't something I had…And, you know, it's my fault, I'm sure, like for not paying as close attention, but I hadn't realized this until like we were having a quick conversation a few weeks ago. [laughs] And I was like, how do I not hear more about this?

Brenda: On Burn It All Down, we have had two players interviewed, if anyone wants to listen to those interviews in the past. We had Melissa Ortiz, who was a dual national with the US, and she has a great project going on too. So anyway, if people are interested in the old stories, they're there.

Lindsay: Yes. Just like, remembering that these three players were left off the team because of retribution, and that it's the same people in charge. You need to be reminded of the awfulness, because it's so awful that it seems unreal. Like, it seems like there has to be– [laughs]

Brenda: And you want someone to be like, hey, you know how you could win this match right now? Like, it was only 1-0, right? Like, Brazil wins like all the Copa Américas, right? And it's like, they had a good shot. They did not give up. This was just a penalty kick, right? Between Colombia winning. Which would have been great for Colombia, I would've frankly been very happy. I mean, You know, Catalina Usme, who the announcers continued to call Maria – I don't fucking know why. I understand that might be on her birth certificate, but she has never used it. Just look at her Instagram. She had a terrific game. There’s Caicedo, this 17 year old phenom that everyone's super excited about. So, you know, you just think to yourself, those three players might have really given you a leg up there. So, it was a bummer.

Lindsay: Yeah. And like you said, I mean, we've seen, you know, not that I think Colombia has done the work to be poised for the full kind of England moment that England had upon winning it, because they have the domestic leagues and I think are gonna be able to really hopefully build on this. But you know, it would've been very impactful, I think. But how has Colombia managed to stay qualifying for these major tournaments, you know, in the finals, despite the lack of investment, despite the lack of care?

Brenda: Man, that is a great question. And I mean, wizardry? I'm not really sure what spells, what they've done. I mean, to a certain extent, even if the league is kind of in shambles, the fact that they're playing on a regular basis and training on a regular basis, because so many of their players gave up contracts in the US and in Europe to come back and support the league. Which is just totally heartbreaking that they get screwed over for this. But at the very least, like compared to let's say Paraguay, where they're not playing and competing and training as much. So, as shambles as that Dimayor Colombian league, is it still gives them the opportunity to play more than some of their counterparts, you know? And Colombia in general has a very strong physical education tradition. It does have a strong club system. It has kind of certain skeletal qualities too that that girls can take advantage of – certainly not equally, but to a certain extent, they have a strong club tradition, right? They have amazing women’s volleyball, cyclists, you know, so this all kind of feeds into its own culture. And they have been playing women's football since, you know, at least the 1940s.

Lindsay: Which you can read about in Futbolera. [laughter] This is really all just Brenda PR. She paid me for this. [laughter] Do we know the exact people that were accused of sexual abuse? Like, was it the coaches? 

Brenda: Yeah. So, the main coach was Didier Luna, who was the U-17 coach, who was also accused by an adult physical trainer named Carolina Rozo, who has come out. And Suzy Wrack wrote about it in the Guardian. I just interviewed her recently for a new book, and according to Carolina, he has appealed his case so many times that he won't ever do the jail sentence that he was actually sentenced to. And not only that, but that he gets invited to federation events all the time. Carolina Rozo on the other hand was fired from her job, and can find no job as a physical trainer in football. Like, she is completely prohibited. Obviously. It's informally, but it's very obvious. It's been four years and she has not gotten another placement. And she was the head physical trainer for the women's youth national team. So, that's pretty fucked up that you can't get like a job at a club.

Lindsay: Yeah. I would say pretty fucked up is a gentle way of saying it.

Brenda: Yeah. Like, it seems impossible that it's anything else but kind of punishment for her filing her own charges and to support these girls and their cases, which she did. And she's really paid the ultimate professional price.

Lindsay: And those 15 and 16 year olds, because they were on the U-17 team, where are they now? Do we know? Or how are they doing? It was anonymous, right? 

Brenda: No, their identity was pretty well protected, so we don't know. What we do know is that they had tried to go to the federation for at least 18 months and got no response. And that Didier Luna was not suspended from his job even after they filed criminal charges for a good amount of time.

Lindsay: In a just world, would it be FIFA who would be punishing the Colombian team for this and looking into this and running investigations? Like, what level are we missing of accountability? You know what I mean? [laughs]

Brenda: Totally. I mean first, jail.

Lindsay: Yeah. Okay.

Brenda: I mean, it should be the Colombia government, and the attorney general. That should have been successful. These football clubs should not be able to stymie the law, you know, around protecting children from abuse. So, that's step one.

Lindsay: I don't give any hope to that. So I just… [laughs] 

Brenda: Yeah, well, that's tough. You know, Colombia has obviously struggled. Journalists have been attacked in Colombia, and that means that anyone reporting on these types of things is entering into a very scary space. So, tons of human rights abuses. Many journalists covering Indigenous issues in Colombia have been killed or harassed. And so, this isn't an environment that's very easy to work with, period. And then on top of it, to have a kind of criminal justice system that is pretty messed up and compromised from, you know, civil war and intervention, all that stuff. I mean, it's just kind of a perfect storm. So beyond that, you say, well, what could FIFA do? I mean, okay. This is the very fucking least. At the very least, the president of the federation who was aware of these complaints for years should be replaced. 

Lindsay: Yeah. That just seems like somebody should be able to do that. Somebody should be able to say you can't work this job anymore. [laughs]

Brenda: Right. And FIFA could do that. That is something that FIFA could be like, we are disaffiliating, you will no longer be able to compete for World Cup qualifications or in regulation play if that continues to be the head of your federation. And they've done that. I mean, they say like no politics in football, but they did ban apartheid South Africa. I mean, thank fucking goodness. And like, I mean, bare minimum, right? They did do that, and they can do that, and they have total control, but guess what? The federation president is literally on the FIFA executive council. 

Lindsay: Jesus. 

Brenda: So like, I don't know what you do with that. So then you say, oh, it could be the confederation. It could be South America. And it's like, yeah, right. I mean, so it's just really ridiculous. I think at this point, you know, my hope would be Colombia has a new government. Their new vice president, who’s the youngest Afro Colombian vice president, is super into football, and I'm just hoping she can save it somehow. I dunno. [laughs] Like, that might be a priority somewhere for her.

Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, sports matter, right? Let's at least…The bare minimum has gotta be safety. Like, just the bare minimum. 

Brenda: She campaigned in football stadiums and at football clubs. So I hope...She is really exciting. Their new president is really exciting. It's the first time you've ever had a leftist elected in Colombia. So, maybe it'll push change more broadly, you know?

Lindsay: So I kind of wanna just, you know, the rest of kind of standings: Argentina in third, Paraguay in fourth, Chile and Venezuela fifth and sixth. So that means they made it in, you know, past the group stage. And then we had Ecuador, Uruguay, Bolivia and Peru all eliminated in group stage play. But I didn't know if there's teams that you kind of wanna focus in on or zoom in on that impressed you or you think we should all sound alarm bells about? 

Brenda: I mean, I think when you look at the disparate performances of Peru, Uruguay, and Chile in particular, compared with their men's team, it's pretty shocking. It's hard with Bolivia because the men's team also struggles for support. I mean, it's just a hard state of affairs. The same with Venezuela. I'm really not sure what to say. 

Lindsay: They don't have the infrastructure anyways. It's not that they have the infrastructure and they're not using it for women. It's that they don't have the infrastructure at all right now. Yeah.

Brenda: Yeah. And also sports have not really central part of like the Bolivian government since Evo Morales, and Venezuela is also very much a baseball country. And anyway, so there's a lot there to kind of unpack. Deyna Castellanos continues to be wonderful, from Venezuela. We expect her to continue to be wonderful. She was FIFA player of the year, several years ago. She was great. You know, I guess it's kind of sad to see Chile not build on the momentum. It had its maiden World Cup journey last time, and they really didn't show much growth at all. So the idea is that we hold these teams go to the World Cup and then that behooves them, you know what I mean? Like they get a boost or a boon or something like that. And in the case of Chile, we didn't really see it in the way that we would hope.

And Uruguay is always like a question to me. Again, it considers itself a total football country. The feminist movement had started to make little groups within the main clubs by the early 2010s to make stadiums safe. Same in Peru, like, a big cool movement around let's have safe stadiums and let's think about fan culture. And I feel like that hasn't translated into support for the national team, unfortunately. And I'm not sure why that is, but that was kind of disappointing to see. But I don’t…It's hard to root against any of them, right? So like, I struggle with this like all the time. I don't actually like the way Colombia plays, like at all. So like, I just prefer the Brazilian style. But then I was so sad when they lost, they looked so sad, and they tried to hard and they were home! It's just miserable to root against people who are already disadvantaged materially, right? [laughs] And like, discrimination. And you're like, oh god, you want them all to win, you know?

Lindsay: Absolutely. I know you recently you've kind of done a report. Is there anything from that report you wanna talk about?

Brenda: Yeah. There's a couple areas besides that I didn't wanna just be harshing the vibe, that the Mexican league has been amazing and that I encourage people to really tune in, because it's great. You're going to hear a lot again about the Copa América not making attendance numbers, that the average is somewhere around 6,000. Please like just close your ears and go la-la-la-la-la, and don't listen to the bullshit, because again, they had it in these really strange places instead of their cities with millions and millions of people, right? And so it's like a half of all of those city citizens would've had to go to like fill the stadium, you know what I mean? It's just like, it's some bullshit. So I would just not even listen to that. I mean, the Colombian press happily spent a lot of time on this tournament. It was good.

Couple things to look out for. We have had a couple instances, particularly in the Colombian league and the Chilean league, of racism towards Afro Colombian and Afro Chilean players by fellow teammates. Well, rivals. Rivals in particular on the pitch. And the more popular that this gets, the more instances that we're having of racist and homophobic abuse in women's football. And I would just say, like, we all needed to just be super kind of on guard with this happening. And some people are like, you know, they like to see signs of the men's game, and say, well, maybe that's a good thing for the women's game, but this isn't one that any of us wanna see. And yeah, it happened just twice recently. Once in that Colombian league, three players filed an official report and came out complaining about one of their teammates from América de Cali, and they denounced the racism. They wanted a full investigation. It hasn't happened. And then in addition to it, Mary Valencia, she's an Afro Chilean player for Santiago Morning, has been attacked by rivals and fans for “stealing Chilean's jobs” and received threatening messages that she should “return to Africa.”

So I think we just need to, those of us who just really love this and really want women's football in Latin America to grow and to continue to grow – and I think it is, I do. I know I sound frustrated, but I do think…I could still watch it, you know? Like, four years ago it was much harder, and eight years ago it was impossible. So, I mean, I'm grateful for it. Like, a sad, grateful for crumbs. I know. But still, I'm glad. And just getting them that exposure is incredible. But with that comes some of the same pitfalls as the men's game. So I guess one thing I would say is we gotta be real on guard about that shit happening. Whether you're in the crowd, you can alert someone. You can always report it to the Fare network. You can always report it to the federation. If it's safe, you can document it through photographs and send it to the federation. I don't know if they'll do anything, but the Fare network will. And I think sanctions can work really well in these cases. And we really need to kind of like jump on that, you know?

Lindsay: Absolutely. Well, Bren, two of my favorite parts of Futbolera are…Well, favorite is wrong for this one, but you know, it cited a lot Brazil's ban on football, you know, and as we talk about Brazil winning, you know, there was kind of this…It was very symbolic, seeing England win, who of course the FA had the ban on football, and then Brazil win, which, there was a total ban on football in these countries. And it's just like the best middle finger to like these patriarchs. [laughs]

Brenda: Totally.

Lindsay: But can you remind people, because Futbolera is just like the best dive into this, so I'm asking you to sum up, you know, decades of work, but like, I always think it's important to remind people that the ban didn't happen because nobody cared, right? It happened because people cared too much or people were getting too much power from it, right?

Brenda: Right. And it's the same in England. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Brenda: It's a reaction to the massive growth and popularity of the women's game, which in Brazil had created a league by 1941. And so Getúlio Vargas, when he becomes dictator and creates like a council of sports, essentially, the very first thing they do is ban women's football – in schools, outside, in parks, at birthday parties, wherever. And that ban stays in place until, I mean, really until 1981. It becomes a kind of feminist lightning rod by that point. And it's the moment of democratization from the dictatorship. So, it's important that feminists recognize that and like, hey you know, this should be a right of ours. And there's something to this. If this is what defines Brazil, if this is what makes our nation what it is, jogo bonito, it's really important that we're banned from participating altogether. It’s just wild.

Lindsay: And once again, people pretend like it's like, you know, to care about the safety of women or whatever, but we all know it's just because sports bring power and confidence and community and togetherness, and these are all things that they get scared when women have. [laughs]

Brenda: That's right. And maybe being happy together for their own teammates who are also women, not doing it for the pleasure of men only. The time away from domestic duties where they could be giving their time and energy towards men is incredibly threatening to them. Incredibly threatening. And the bans, you know, just to be fair, there were equally as horrible people trying to ban it in Costa Rica, in Colombia, in Argentina. I mean, there's a lot of things. And there's a lot of…Also, I never wanna have people walk away and say, like, oh, Latin America is so exclusively sexist, because of course then in the US you have things like in North American football or, you know, the very concept of go play softball, not baseball. There's lots of ways in which it happens and you see it time and time again. One of the reasons we made Futbolera comparative, Josh Nadel, who wrote it with me and I, is because the narratives are so similar.

Lindsay: Right. No, and that's why I cite it so much, because obviously I'm not writing full-time about Latin America. But the stuff you talk about, like the homophobia, the fear of taking time away from domestic labor, of community. Like, this is what we see everywhere. Do you know what I mean? Of just like these limitations put on women’s sports. Because the people in power, they're not afraid about them failing. Like, that's not the truth. They're afraid about them succeeding! [laughs]

Brenda: Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent.

Lindsay: And because it fucks their status quo, right? It fucks their comfortable place at the top of that mountain. 

Brenda: Totally.

Lindsay: And then to end on a positive note, you know, we talked about Mexico a little bit, and I always love the story about the World Cup, the unofficial World Cup in Mexico. Can you remind people of that story?

Brenda: Yeah, so, I love this story because a lot of times people are sort of, I don't know, pessimistic about getting out of FIFA, or what are you ever gonna do without a FIFA, so you need it. And in 1970 in Italy, and then in 1971, women organized what we now call the unofficial Women's World Cup, which is super fucking stupid, because like, you can decide what you think is official. It’s really official. [laughter] And so they organized the World Cup, and it's the same. It's like right after the Olympics of ’68 and the World Cup in Mexico City. Estadio Azteca had been filled, at that time it was 110,000 people. And so the Italians who host it in 1970, say, hey, we wanna do another World Cup next year in Mexico to use all the stadiums and build on, you know, all the enthusiasm and excitement going on there. And so they do, and it is 110,000 people. And I don't know where that ranks in the largest women's sporting event, but I think it's the largest women's sporting event. I don't know the Rose Bowl situation, but in any case, I think it's close. Perhaps.

Lindsay: I think it might beat that. And then, you know, I know that the cricket World Cup in Australia tried to beat the Rose Bowl recently, but I think that has them both beat. If I'm not wrong.

Brenda: I think it does. And a lot of times people are...This is so silly, but here's where becoming an historian's really fun. A lot of times people know a little bit about the Women's World Cup. And so they look up the 1971 stadium and they say, oh, it’s Estadio Azteca and that only has 90,000 people. But that's because it was actually shrunk in the late 1990s. So in 1971, it would've had 110,000. 

Lindsay: Gotcha. Wow. 

Brenda: Yeah, I know that's really picky. [laughs]

Lindsay: No, it's not all. And I think, honestly, because now that I'm thinking about it, when Cricket Australia was trying to break the world record for the most attended women's sporting match, I think they were using the Rose Bowl number from '99 as their marker and forgetting about Mexico. So, yeah.

Brenda: And you could see pictures of it, like, just Google it, just Google “1971 Women's World Cup, Mexico,” and you're gonna see the stadium. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. And even the little cute mascot is adorable. And the whole thing is so cool to just think that they did that without any FIFA. And actually, oh, and here, just going down in history, all these jerks, the Mexican federation clubs that had loaned the women their stadiums for training were fined because FIFA still hadn't allowed for women's football yet. So it trademarked it, but it didn't allow for anybody to have women's matches on regulation territory, which is just…I think it is just completely made up. And so, yeah, they faced fines and little disciplinary actions for loaning women their stadiums, which makes me still so mad. But happy for the women that they did this. Incredible.

Lindsay: Yeah. We'll get back to that 110, despite the decades and decades after seeing the potential [laughter] and squashing it. It’s good to remember what's possible. It's good to get caught up on what is going on in Latin America. And it is always better than good to talk with you, Brenda. So thank you again for being a guest on your own show so I can pick your brain.

Brenda: The best. I can truly say that I listen to your show and I love it. 

Lindsay: [laughs] All right. That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. You can follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out burnitalldownpod.com. There's also merch at our Bonfire store. Thank you again to our patrons. Your support means the world to me. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/burnitalldown. And we shall be returning from summer break next week. Burn on, not out.