Interview: Filmmaker Kristen Lappas, on the docuseries Dream On

In this episode, Amira Rose Davis talks with Kristen Lappas, an Emmy award-winning director and producer about her latest film, Dream On, a three-part documentary from ESPN's 30 for 30 about the 1996 USA women's basketball team journey to Olympic gold. They discuss what it like to interview all members of the team, including legends like Lisa Leslie, Dawn Staley and Rebecca Lobo. They also dive into how memory and remember play a role in the narrative and the ways this team are the "Hidden Figures" of basketball.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Amira: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the sports podcast you need. It's Amira here, and I am thrilled to be joined by Kristen Lappas, who I actually went to high school with, but more importantly is the director of Dream On, the latest documentary about the 1996 Dream Team women's basketball team that took on the world and many other things, available now on ESPN, ESPN+, all those entities. Kristen is the director and producer at Words + Pictures, a two time Emmy award-winning producer for sports documentaries like Dream On, which we are here to talk about today because it was so amazing! Kristen, thank you so much for joining Burn It All Down. 

Kristen: You are very sweet for having me, and it's a pleasure. Any time I can connect with old high school friends, it's always a fun thing. So thank you for having me.

Amira: Absolutely. So, first and foremost, what was it like to make this documentary with all of these amazing women? Like, you just start seeing all of the personalities involved on that team. And in this film, in this documentary, like, was this like a dream come true to make this?

Kristen: It 1000% is. I keep telling people, like, I'm never gonna be able to top making a film about my childhood idols. And you're supposed to stay, you know, unbiased in these roles as directors as journalists. And I said this to Brian Lockhart, who's the VP of original programming at ESPN, when he asked me how some of the shoots went, I was like, I had to ask Cheryl for a picture after we did the interview, like, I just had to do it. I'm sorry! I know I'm not supposed to, but like, these are my idols! Lisa Leslie and Dawn Staley, who grew up in Philly, like right where I grew up. It was just…It was surreal. It was amazing. And it was honestly the most fun thing that I've ever done. Like, people talk about, you know, what's the most rewarding project, and there are so many things that I've done that I'm very connected to the subject matter and the subjects, but this one was just fun. Like, these women are awesome, they’re all such big personalities. And getting to sit down with each of them for, you know, two, three hours, and just talk about that year was an incredible experience.

Amira: That seems amazing. It's so hard when you have to be professional and also you’re fangirling. I just saw Lisa of course at the ESPYs, and I was like, hi, okay, so…! And she was like asking me how to say something, and I was like, uh-huh…Like, I'm a professional. I can like talk to you. But also, I'm just like screaming internally that you even…It's really weird.

Kristen: It's unbelievable. And it never changes, right? It never changes. Like, I've been in this business for 13 years. And again, I see these women and I'm just like, whoa, this is wild. But they're also down to earth. And I'm sure you saw with Lisa, who's like one of my favorite people in the world. We are like text friends now. Like, they're just human beings, right? And they're just so much more approachable and relatable than a lot of the male athletes that I feel like we have to cover. 

Amira: Yeah. I mean, and that's one of the things that's so great about this documentary. Like, obviously we did The Last Dance and now The Captain is out, and Tom Brady has, I don't know, what, 12 episodes of Man in the Arena or something outrageous. And so we've seen these like big romantic biopics of these individual men, and something that really stuck out to me about Dream On was that we got a collective retrospective. It was everybody. And actually the strength was in getting all of these glimpses of people and their story and their personalities. And we would see Dawn in Philly, right? We went to, you know, Venus…Everything with Venus made me cry, full disclosure. But like, all of those moments where we got bits of individuals, but also the thing was about the collective, just really, to me, puts it apart from a lot of the kind of hagiography in real time that's happening. About that – was it daunting to think about how you were gonna piece together all of these individual personalities and stories, and the collective narrative as well?

Kristen: First of all, I appreciate you acknowledging that it was the collective experience, because that was a really important thing for me. Early on when we were, you know, putting together a list of potential interview subjects, and we were putting the budget together, I just told my management that it was really, really important to me to interview all 12 women that were on that team, as well as coach VanDerveer. And you know, with stories like this, it's always like, okay, well, who are the biggest names? Like, we gotta prioritize for budgetary reasons, or just because it's just too hard to get that many voices into one film. A little fact that I haven't let anybody in on is that this was commissioned as a 77 minute film. Obviously it ended up being much longer than that, almost double in length, and ended up being a three part documentary series. And from the beginning, I kind of had it in my mind…I was like, this is gonna be longer than 77 minutes. I was like, I'm not gonna tell anybody that, to like sound the alarms. And you never wanna say that before you've shot a frame of video, right?

But in my heart of hearts, I was like, there are so many rich stories and storylines that go so far beyond just like the journey on the court during that 13, 14 months, that I was like, I know this is gonna be more than that. So I pushed really, really hard to make sure that we talked to all 12 women. We went to wherever they are located now. So we literally went all around the country interviewing these women over the course of six months. And it was really apparent to me early on that Dawn's voice is gonna be as important as Venus Lacy's voice is gonna be as important as Rebecca Lobo's voice. And so it was like each of them have their own truths and were such a huge part of that year, no matter what their status is in the world of basketball now, that I wanna make sure that this is a very balanced film in terms of the voices we hear from. And it is daunting because you wanna make sure you're giving everybody their time to share their story. And I'm sure that…You know, listen, you can't make everybody happy, and I'm sure there are some women that felt like maybe they deserved a little more screen time, but I felt proud with kind of our ability to tell each of their individual journeys.

Amira: Well, I'm so glad you pushed for the length, because it really did justice to those voices. I mean even the opening shots starting with Venus and her son and…Especially if everybody who is watching isn't familiar with her journey, you can see though that there is something monumental that they're remembering, and that it's hard. And then just like that opening line of, “I wanna remember everything,” and having her kind of be the bookends of this was just so sweet to me. Like, it really resonated. But I think that one of the things I really liked about it was exactly what you said – everybody's journey has been different. They're all kind of spread out. And some of these names we know, and they exist in basketball, especially at a moment where women's basketball is really having such increased visibility and command of the stage they're on. And I think there was like on one hand, getting to see all the other ways that people interacted with the game, and sometimes you're like, oh, I didn't realize she was still coaching, or, oh, this is what she's doing, that’s really interesting.

But also just like, as we've come to know them now, it's really great to sit and…I mean, obviously I'm a historian, but like, being able to sit with the past in real time. And like, I was flooded with these images of things. I knew, I knew Dawn played for Tara. Like, I know these things, but it's different watching how you presented it, to think about like, wow, it must be wild coaching against a coach that you played for. And it was hard. Or it must be wild if you're Rebecca Lobo calling Stanford's games. And you start to think about all of the journeys not only individuals had, but their relationships have had, both publicly and privately. You know, what did you have to kind put off of your mind about our contemporary women's basketball moment to go into making this film?

Kristen: Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting question. I too am such a nerd for the history of the game and how it's evolved. And I think forever I've always felt like this team is the hidden figures of basketball. And I feel like they haven't gotten their credit and they haven't gotten, you know, just the amount of just recognition that they should from current players in the game now. Dawn Staley always says that. She's like, my players right now, they didn't know before this film what we went through, what we sacrificed in order for them to be able to play in an NBA, in order for them to get sponsorships now. And so it was just so important for me. And of course, the footage. The footage that the NBA captured during that year, the fact that they committed to sending beautiful, high end, expensive cameras that shot film – not video, film – for 12 months, and committed to that team at a time when people weren't committing to women's sports in that way, I think is remarkable. And the fact that they captured 500 hours of never before seen footage, and that 500 hours was literally like dumped on my lap and was like, here you go. It's like a gift from the documentary gods, literally. [laughs]

Amira: I mean, it's literally a documentarian's dream. 

Kristen: Yes. 

Amira: But it's also, like, I imagine…500 hours is like too many riches. Like, what do you do with it? I feel like we need a part 4, 5, 6.

Kristen: It's like the Lost Tapes. 

Amira: Exactly. 

Kristen: The Lost Tapes of Dream On. And I could absolutely do that, because I have it all logged. [Amira laughs] And it was very, very daunting. Like, I had an exceptional team. It was not a big team, but there was like a group of six of us. And we literally last summer, we were like, okay, each of us has to get through, every single night after the work day's over, we have to get through two hours each of this footage, because like, we'll never put a dent in this if we don't all just start to chip in. And we had a really good system of when we found something that we thought was, you know, like a hidden treasure or gem, we had a certain way of, you know, starring that so I could go back and watch it, obviously as I'm putting the script together.

But I'll just say that the 500 hours of footage, we were able to really bring to life the dynamics between Tara, let's say, and Dawn Staley. Whereas like, you can tell people a million times, Dawn Staley played for Tara VanDerveer on the 1986 team. It's different to tell somebody that than it is to show somebody that and actually see that dynamic unfolding. And clearly Dawn was, you know, the jokester that was always trying to get under Tara's skin. But you were able to see that dynamic, as opposed to like somebody telling you about that.

Amira: Absolutely.

Kristen: Which I think is so much more powerful. And so that, you know, we just got really fortunate and lucky with that footage. And once we saw that we had that, I was like, okay, now I think this actually has a chance to be something really special.

Amira: You know, I like that. Because the production piece is like a group puzzle where you're bringing in all these elements. And I just finished up a narrative podcast on Black girls in gymnastics, and my amazing producer Kelly Hardcastle Jones had this like wizards ability to like…We’re talking in real time and we're talking about, like, how stale the gymnastics tours were before. And she finds the perfect clip of like the deadpan line announcer says. And I imagine, you know, I think about the moments that really resonated when people are discussing wrestling with what the image of the team is and their own personal style and their own image. And it cuts to Dawn being uncomfortable wearing something. It’s just a quick clip, but it resonates, and that sticks with you in a way. And it's amazing what you and your team were able to compile, you know, sifting through all that, because there were so many directions you could have taken it in. And I think that you just floated just enough for the words and the pictures to like do that synergy that everybody reaches for. It was really brilliant. It honestly was.

Kristen: Thank you. Thank you.

Amira: That wasn't a question, I'm just really excited. [laughter]

Kristen: I'm really bad at taking positive feedback too. [laughs]

Amira: Compliments? Yeah, same. No, but it was awesome. So the other thing that I was thinking about is this thing about memory and remembering. And obviously I thought about that a lot through Venus. You know, I thought about that a lot through like Coach Summitt as well, like Coach Stringer, and just like the ways in which we have these voided memories, and you have individuals who really embody that. And like what that moment of remembering means now, means today, in a time where, you know, the ’96 Olympics, the last Olympic cycles, a few things that came out about it, thinking about the summer of women, but also just for where women's basketball is and where it could be going. Because on one hand – and this is like very a Title IX anniversary year thing – you're like, wow, look how far, look how different it is. And then on the other hand there's tape that doesn't feel different. There's tape that feels like it could be from last week.

Kristen: 1000%.

Amira: So like, we're looking back, and sometimes it feels like we're just looking at a circle. What does it feel like to try to, you know, do this film in this moment?

Kristen: Yeah, I think it was a really important moment to tell this story, because we did have, as you mentioned, it's the 50 year anniversary of Title IX, and so people were paying attention to female stories and to, you know, recognizing those stories for the first time in a long time, I feel like. And so, yeah, I think it was the perfect time for this story to be told and for it to gain the traction that it did. But I also think it's a really important moment to tell this story because, again, like you just said, the awareness of, oh my gosh – like the facilities that women's sports have versus men's sports, that really hasn't changed very much. The idea of like chartered flights and private jets to and from games, like, that hasn't changed yet either. Like, yeah, maybe they're not sitting in coach and middle seats, but like–

Amira: They’re in economy plus, it's like, not that much better. [laughs]

Kristen: It's like, it really hasn't changed that much. And so my hope with this film was to also have some people really reflect on: where are we 25 years later? And where do we need to be 25 years from now? You know what I mean? 

Amira: Exactly.

Kristen: And, you know, Dawn Staley is wiser than anyone I've ever met in my life. And she said this at…We had a premier at Madison Square Garden for the film on June 9th. And we did a panel afterwards, and she was like, I'm appreciative of ESPN giving me and my former teammates this platform to share our story, but the fact this is the first multi-part documentary that ESPN has done on female athletes, the fact that we're having any firsts in the year 2022 is just despicable and ridiculous, and like, I'm calling you guys out. And it was just so funny because I'm like, yeah, thank you for saying that! Because it's the truth. It's like, we're so proud of this three part documentary series that we had to push for. And kudos to my bosses who said yes right away. Like, I don't think it’s…But it's just crazy to think that we've been telling 30 for 30s now for, you know, almost 13 years, and we didn't have a multipart on female athletes. Like, what? 

Amira: It's ridiculous. Yeah. 

Kristen: So anyways, I just felt like this was the perfect moment in time to finally get this story out and have it gain the most traction.

Amira: Now, what was it like to get them together again? Because that feels like a moment. 

Kristen: It absolutely was. The reunion scene was incredibly emotional for them, and honestly for me as like a bystander, having interviewed all of them before that moment, right? And then seeing them come together and understanding the dynamics that they shared with me in the interviews, and then seeing them play out. And Lisa Leslie, like, just acknowledging the fact that we were so young and so naive, and we didn't even realize what each of us was going through in our own personal lives, because in that moment in time people weren't open about their mental health. People weren't open about their marriages and, you know, all of the things that they were dealing with off the court. And so I think the reason that the reunion to me is a really important moment for the end of the film is for all of them to kind of acknowledge that 25 years later that, you know, we didn't handle things maybe the best way that we could. We didn't offer Venus the support that you needed through these years.

You know, Venus was very, very quiet about the actual amnesia and the brain trauma that she experienced after that accident. She's embarrassed. She was embarrassed of it. She said to me, she goes, Kristen, I haven't done an interview since the accident, because I was just too afraid to admit, you know, my vulnerabilities. And and so I think the fact that this film was able to touch on some of those emotions and feelings that I don't think have been shared publicly was also really important to me. And I'm so grateful that the women let their guard down, because that's not easy either, to say…You know, like Jennifer Azzi saying, like, I don't know why I waited til 2016 to come out, right? You know, like, that's not an easy thing to say for her.

Amira: It's not easy to reflect, and it's not even reflect in front of cameras. 

Kristen: Exactly. 

Amira: Or in front of a room full of people that you did so much and grew so much with. But I think it's really special that we got a glimpse of that, of that process of, you know, sitting there and collectively reflecting and individually doing that work as well. What was the biggest surprise for you when doing this?

Kristen: Biggest surprise? I mean, there were a lot of surprises. [Amira laughs] First of all, No one knew where Venus was. No one had any contact information for her. We honestly didn’t...I said earlier that we wanted to interview all 12 players. We had interviewed 11, and I didn't think we would get her. She was the last interview we did. You know, as a filmmaker, you are always kind of moving pieces around in your head of like how I wanna start the movie, where I want it to go, and like, what's the payoff, and what do I want people to leave with? And all of those things. And it's like, the thing that I tell young people that are coming up and trying to do this is, like, never be married to your outline or what you think coming into this. Because like, we didn't know Venus' story. It wasn't public. And so sitting down with her and asking her questions about her experiences that year, and her giving me really generic answers, and then seven minutes into the interview breaking down and saying, Kristen, the reason that I'm giving you these answers is because I really don't remember. The only thing that I have is that my son created the scrapbook for me to try to, you know, spark my memory and just make me feel like I was a part of something. And once I heard that, I was like, oh my gosh. 

Amira: We have to see the scrapbook.

Kristen: Yeah. Like, we have to go down and see the scrapbook and film with Alex, Venus' son. And so then it all just kind of clicks and comes together in that way.

Amira: It's amazing, right? Because you have to…I mean, that's the work, is finding the people, but then also creating an environment in which they can be vulnerable, because then you realize you're getting these new levels of things that haven't been shared before. And I know I always say, like, that's the kind of high I chase, of like somebody saying, like, “I've never said this before, but…” because you have no idea what doors are gonna open through these new revelations. So that sounds like quite the moment.

Kristen: Absolutely. Another surprise that I feel like my whole team was like so thrilled about was sometimes, you know, you go through…And I've done this on certain films and projects, it’s like, you set up in your mind the potential for an interview, and sometimes you're just disappointed. Like, you come back, and someone asks, how did it go? And you’re like, it was okay. You know? Maybe there were a few little moments in there that were really like, you know, eye opening, but overall it was kind of generic. And I just didn't know how open and authentic and candid these women were gonna be. And when I saw…Like, I interviewed Rebecca Lobo first – she was the first interview I did. And she walked into the interview and she was like, you know, “I was talking to my husband on the way over here, and I was like, I've never been fully truthful about my experience that year. Should I lie, or should I just tell her the truth?” And thank god for her husband, he was like, no, no, no. Rebecca….

Amira: This is the time to tell.

Kristen: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if it's like, you know, 25 years…30 for 30 has a great model, right? We tell retrospective stories because that time passing opens people up to reflecting and being more honest with themselves about how they were back then, how they are now, and their experiences. But man, I mean, her interview, she was just so honest about her experiences. And once we got that one in the can, and Carla McGhee, who's like one of my favorite people in the world. She just…I literally had to like turn my microphone off when I was interviewing her, because I was just laughing the whole time. [Amira laughs] And I literally didn't wanna ruin the sound. I was like, just cut my mic, I just need to…But anyways, once I got through those and I was like, I'm getting really reflective sound. I'm getting emotional sound. And I'm getting hilarious, charismatic, funny moments. It's like, you know, the sound is what makes these films. And I feel like they all kind of exceeded my expectations.

Amira: That's amazing. Is there anything that you hope people pick up on that you wanna like highlight from it that you haven't heard, or are people getting what you set out to do? 

Kristen: I think people are getting it. 

Amira: Yeah. That’s a good job then. [laughs] 

Kristen: I think that…I mean, I don't know. The biggest thing for me was when I was making this, like, I didn't want it to be considered a women's sports film, I wanted it to be considered a sports film, right? I wanted whoever turns this on, whether they're a fan of women's basketball or not, to be riveted by the story and the accomplishments of what these women did, and really look back when they finished the film and say, wow, I knew nothing about this team. And like, they made me a fan of women's basketball. They made me a fan of that team. And like, the sacrifices. And I think people are acknowledging the sacrifices. Maybe it is because of the 50 year anniversary of Title IX that people are willing to go to that. But just again, you brought up the scene in the dress shop when they were taken to like a Nicole Miller, like a boutique in the mall and forced into these terrible dresses. And just like that moment alone, I think, the takeaway of like the NBA and, you know, all of the other people trying to market them, trying to kind of fit them into this really narrow box, and then just like not knowing, and almost sacrificing a little piece of themselves for the betterment and the advancement of the game.

Amira: Yeah. And feeling that pressure to do it.

Kristen: Exactly. Exactly. Like, I think that's something that I was really hoping was gonna be taken from people who watched the film. And I think that that's resonating in an impactful way – I think. [laughs] 

Amira: Yeah, no, it was something really important. There's a line that I wrote for the ESPYs that said, you know, we stand on beautiful, broad shoulders–

Kristen: I love that.

Amira: –heavy from the burdens they carry, cracking ceilings for us. And that's exactly what I was thinking of, in my head, of like, the way that we have glimpses of people where we might say, oh, they conform to this, or they did this, without acknowledging the pressure to give yourself over for what you know to be true. And when we talk about that precarity of all of these early leagues, and the WNBA of course stands alone in its tenure of women's professional leagues here. But that burden of being perfect so it can continue, of being everything the sport needs you to be, and then paving way for people walking past who don't even know this, like Dawn was saying about her students, her players, like not even realizing where these shifts have happened. And then giving that moment back to them to say, who are you now? Because I think when you get so used to being a box, it's hard to break out of it, at whatever big age you turn.

And so there was a glimpse, for me, the pieces that we got to see of that, of these burdens, but also the creations that came out of them and the way that people are still wrestling with who they get to be and how they get to show up. Some people have to leave the sport entirely to do that. Some people reinvent themselves three times over. And seeing that process was something that I love.

Kristen: And by the way, the way that you articulated that at the ESPYs was like in the most beautiful and eloquent way.

Amira: Thank you. 

Kristen: You have like such a gift for doing that in such a short, you know, little package.

Amira: Very short. [laughs]

Kristen: I got chills when I was watching. I was like, whew!

Amira: Thank you. I was like, we're gonna do what in seven minutes? [Kristen laughs] Okay. But no, I think that that's one of the things that really sticks out about this work for me, is that we get all of these things. Like, I know I will teach it in my classes, because it's one of these films that there's so many pieces to it that helps us build forward while looking back. And I think that that's a really impressive feat.

Kristen: Well, I appreciate you saying that. It's funny that you bring that up, because there was one…And I don't wanna, like, I'm so appreciative for any person that's willing to watch the movie and review it. But there was a review in the Wall Street Journal, and it was ultimately very, very positive, but there was this one line – of course I'm just such a perfectionist that I like, you know, took this to heart. But it was like, “They should have stayed on the court,” like, you know, “the off ramps to the personal back stories, like Ruthie Bolton’s, were just so unnecessary.” And like, I have a gripe with that, and I took that personally, because I was like, you could say whatever you want. I totally disagree with that. And I think that that's what made the film’s heart and soul and made it so different than a lot of the other 30 for 30s we've done that kind of do stay primarily on the court or on the field. But yeah, I mean, everyone has their opinion. [laughs]

Amira: It's like, are we still doing this? Like, we need to be so beyond this. Like, more than an athlete – like, how many times have people said this at this point? Because what's happening over here is coming onto the court with you. It’s just so undeniable. That person can just go somewhere. [Kristen laughs] No, I thought that that was…I mean, my husband is not, like what you were saying before, for the lay fan. My husband will maybe watch something if I have it on, but he was enthralled. He watched all three parts. He started watching the first part and he was like, then I'm gonna get back to work. And he watched all three parts straight through. And then when it got to the end, when you guys are giving updates on screen, he was like, oh, really? I could see him Googling people. 

Kristen: [laughs] Oh, I love that.

Amira: And I'm like, that's what you want. You know, it's like planting the seeds to go and be invested in your own way. Okay. So, if you had to do like a director's take and you got to include more things, what is something that ended up on the cutting floor that you're still like, oh, I need that to be in the film? Or you feel good about where you ended up?

Kristen: Yeah. So, it's definitely a little mixture of both. I do feel like you almost have this…Once you like lock in the film, and you have to kind of just be at peace with what you've made. And so you kind of do, like, part of your brain erases some of the stuff that you left on the cutting room floor, because like you don't wanna keep going back to it. There are of course a few things that I absolutely wish…I wish that we could have gone into more depth with more of the women's personal stories. Like, Venus at Louisiana Tech was like a beast. And like, we didn't even acknowledge her college career. And she was coming into that team, she was one of the best players in the world. And I just don't think that we were able to really give people…Like, we obviously mentioned it, but we weren't able to give that full backstory.

Like, she, for example, had this really rare physical disability where she had braces on her legs and she could barely walk until she was eight years old. Her brother actually used to have to give her a piggyback ride to school every day. And she just like really worked through, worked through, and ended up being able to walk without the braces, and then run, and then like become one of the best basketball players. But anyways, that's like something that's like such a small thing, but I feel like it gives another layer to her story, and like, how incredible of a person and a human being she is.

You know, there was this one story that Tara VanDerveer…This is probably the hardest cut that Tara VanDerveer shared with us, and it was a year to the day before the gold medal game. Tara went for a run and she came back and was in the shower, and she had a panic attack, and she fell to her knees in the shower and was shaking. And she basically had this thought, like, what if I fail my country? And what if I'm not good enough to pull this off? And it was a really vulnerable moment for a woman that doesn't really let her guard down very often. And then she said she got out, she toweled off, and she wrote on a piece of paper, like, “I am the right woman for this job,” and like, “we are gonna win a gold medal.” And she said that the second that she wrote that down, she never had another doubt. And it was such a cool story, and she said it on camera, and it's just like, you have to make tough cuts. It was like a six minute chunk that we just had to…But that one hurt. That really hurt, that one.

Amira: So what I'm hearing is we need the extended director's cut version of Dream On, a part four.

Kristen: Absolutely. And more of what they're doing now! I spent so much time filming with each of them. And you know, Jennifer Azzi and her wife are doing like crazy, awesome work for the Las Vegas Aces and the Oakland Raiders. Like, there's just so much more there. It's crazy.

Amira: Yeah, oh my god. So now we need a part four, five, six. Because I really think that, like, you could go so much further forward now that we have all these back stories and do such rich work. So now…Look, I'm like giving you more work to do. I'm like, here's your next project!

Kristen: I’m in. [laughter]

Amira: But it was absolutely amazing to catch up with you about this and to see what you were able to do. It's no small feat to do a project like this. And with a lot of expectations, it's almost like you're inheriting your own burden and like giving visibility to something that has been overlooked. And a lot of people who are in the women's basketball community had such high expectations, and you exceeded them, and that's not easy to do either. [laughs] So, I mean, great work all around. What are you up to next? Vacation, sleep, relaxing, or back into work?

Kristen: I wish. I am actually already directing something else. It's in the very, very early stages, so I'm not allowed to say it yet. 

Amira: We love secrets.

Kristen: But yeah, it's gonna be awesome. It's very different than what this story is. And so it's challenging me in an entirely different and new way. But it's a good way. It's a lot of international shooting, so I actually leave for Europe next week for two weeks. But I'll keep you updated, obviously. [laughs]

Amira: Obviously, and now all our flamethrowers will be watching and waiting with bated breath as well, now that they know it's gonna be fire, whatever you touch. So that's really exciting. And we love international work trips. They're like my favorite thing. I'm like, oh yes, I do have to go to the Olympic archives in Lausanne, of course.

Kristen: There was a point where I was in – you'll appreciate this – where I was pitching like stories that were only abroad. And my boss called me out. He's like, these are great pitches, but like, are you just trying to get some trips to…? [laughter] Maybe.

Amira: Exactly. Well, this is like going through grad school, as an American historian, and like, I was always in like, Tuskegee, Alabama doing research, and all my friends were French historians. 

Kristen: Oh my god. [laughs]

Amira: It was miserable. So I was like, I have to get smarter about this. So the last chapter in my book is like in Hawaii and then the Olympic archives. It really leaned into needing to go to Switzerland.

Kristen: I love it. I love it. Well, I am a huge, huge fan of you and your work. So, I'm honored that you asked me to be on. Thank you. 

Amira: Absolutely. And I encourage everybody to check out Dream On. Like I said, it is streaming now, all three parts. Go ahead, load it up. Watch it, get into it. Where can people follow your work, follow what you're doing, keep up with what you got going on?

Kristen: Yeah, so, I have an Instagram, I have a Twitter, all Lappas K, if you search that, and yeah, I usually try to keep people updated on those two social medias – not great with Facebook. I need to get better with that.

Amira: Well, who’s on Facebook right now. [laughter] Awesome. So, please go follow and support Kristen's work. It's amazing. Check out Dream On if you haven't already. I know a lot of you have. Feel free to send us messages, add on what you loved about the documentary, and what you wanna see in the director's cuts that we are now totally gonna make happen. It was such a pleasure to have you on Burn It All Down. Thank you. Thank you so much again.

That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon of course is on our web and socials. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Listen and subscribe, rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts. For show links and transcripts, please check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link there to our merch at our Bonfire store. And thank you to our Patreons. You continue to mean the world to us. If you wanna become a donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. Burn on, but not out. And we'll see you next week, flamethrowers.