Interview: G. Willow Wilson, Famed Comic Book Author, on Seattle Sounders and Superhero Fandom
In this episode, Shireen Ahmed interviews G. Willow Wilson, an award-winning author of many novels and comics, including recent Ms. Marvel series from Disney+ featuring Kamala Khan. They discuss how Willow became a Seattle Sounders super fan, why fandom is important part of Kamala Khan's story and the ways in which comic book and soccer communities intersect. They also do a deep dive on Willow's favorite ice cream sundae and choose their ultimate five-aside soccer team from Marvel characters.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Welcome to Burn It All Down. Flamethrowers, I am so excited to have our next guest on: G. Willow Wilson. Yes, the G. Willow Wilson. Willow is the author of the acclaimed novel, The Bird King, 2019, co-creator of the Hugo and the American Book Award winning comic book series Ms. Marvel, which in case you haven't heard – I don't know why you wouldn't have heard – but it's now a Disney+ television series. She's written some of the world's best known superhero comics, including the X-Men, Superman, and Wonder Woman. Her first novel, Alif the Unseen, won the 2013 world fantasy award for best novel, was the finalist for the Center for Fiction's first novel prize, and was longlisted for the 2013 women's prize for fiction. In 2015, she won the graphic literature innovator prize at the PEN America literary awards. Her work has been translated into over a dozen languages. She lives in Seattle, and is a self-described Sounders fan. Welcome, Willow.
Willow: Thank you so much, Shireen. I'm so happy to be here.
Shireen: Marhaba! [laughter]
Willow: Marhaba biki!
Shireen: So, let's dig into it. I am so interested in your Seattle Sounders love. Like, I will come clean – and I'll say that of all the football that I watch – MLS is not my first go to, but you are a committed fan. What is it with the Sounders? Let's big this up a bit. Tell me about this.
Willow: You know, no one is more surprised than I, and it really all began for me during the height of lockdown in the pandemic, sort of 2020 to 2021. Seattle was the first major North American city to have community transmission of COVID-19. It was the first major outbreak in an urban area. And so I think there was a sort collective trauma that arose from that. And so we had a super strict lockdown, much more similar to what they did in Europe and parts of Asia than some of the lockdowns they did in other parts of the United States. And it went on for much longer. So we were really at home, not going anywhere, including outside to parks, you know, literally they had park equipment taped off with police tape for a huge part of 2020, 2021. And I went from working more or less full time, I had a bunch of books on my slate, to getting rid of about two thirds of my professional commitments and homeschooling my kids – like a lot of people during that era, and especially a lot of women. And, you know, emotionally, it was also kind of depressing. I've worked my whole adult life.
You know, I had been in a really good place professionally. I was writing for Neil Gaiman in the original Sandman series, and I'd been waiting literally half my life for that. And, you know, the publishing industry was in chaos. Bookstores were shutting down, distribution methods were changing. And so this book that I had been waiting so long to write kind of was a little bit dead on arrival [laughs] and I was super depressed. And in the middle of this, one of my friends was like, oh, you should go watch Ted Lasso. It'll cheer you up. [Shireen laughs] And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not a sports person. I don't wanna, you know? And they were like, no, no, no, it's really charming. So I go and I watch this series, and it is charming. And what was interesting to me though is I was like, there's not enough football in this. I became fixated on the sport aspect because I was like, how do they do that with their feet? This is crazy. I had no idea that this sport was that intricate. And the parallels between soccer and what I do for a living writing superheroes were immediately apparent to me.
You know, in a superhero comic – really any comic, but especially in a superhero comic – you are telling a lot of story using only the human body. You are conveying motion, conveying emotion. And, you know, I sort of found myself looking at the football stuff from a kind of technical perspective, like, oh, when the foot connects with the ball versus when the ball hits the back of the net or rattles off of a post, you know, there's some movements that professional football players do that are so fast that even slowed down you have to kind of really watch to see where the transitions are. And that was really interesting to me. I was not expecting to be as enthralled by that as I was. And so I started seeking out actual football games. I sort of took to Twitter and asked, okay, if I wanted to start watching football/soccer, where should I start? Because I know nothing about the various leagues and where they play and what the schedules are. Like, do you sort of pick a team and follow that team? Or do you pick a league and follow that league? What should I do?
And somebody who follows me on Twitter said words that turned out to be some of the most unexpectedly profound and momentous words that anybody has spoken to me in the last few years, and it was, “Start with your local team.” I knew nothing about the soccer scene in Seattle. I literally was like, you know, Googling the Sounders and sort of looking up their social media accounts. [laughs] And I just got sucked in. Like, literally maybe two or three days after somebody tweeted that at me, the Sounders were playing. And so I watched my first ever Sounders game, and was obsessed because, you know, not only was it a really fun game to watch, it was recognizable. You know, the stadium is literally two miles from my house. The people in the stands were Seattleites that you could see, you know, every day. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is right here. This is like literally down the street! That was it. It was literally love at first sight.
Shireen: Thank you so much for sharing that, because I really feel like origin stories are important – Kamala's origin stories are important, superheroes' origin stories are important. So I'm really glad you shared yours. And part of Kamala Khan's origin story is her fandom, is her writing a fanfic. And you know, we got a really great question from my co-host Jessica about that specific thing, like, how do you actually feel about fandom as it relates to superheroes, the MCU, and sports? It's such an important part of not only the characters you create, but the world that you're inhabiting now, the ecosystem of soccer.
Willow: You know, I think that's an absolutely fascinating question, because the parallels are quite real, with superheroes as with sports teams, the symbol, you know, the crest is something eternal. It's something that's usually worn by many people over time. In the case of Ms. Marvel, you know, she's got the lightning bolt crest, and Captain Marvel has the lightning bolt within the Hala star. And then you go back even further and there are other iterations of Ms. Marvel and other iterations of Captain Marvel. So there's an understanding in superhero fandom that the thing that is eternal is the symbol itself, and that many people have to carry that forward over time. And when you are a Captain Marvel fan or a Ms. Marvel fan, you might have started out with a completely different iteration of that character. You might remember, you know, the Ms. Marvel of the 1970s, or during the Carol Danvers Captain Marvel era, or for you, you know, Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel might be the first Ms. Marvel that you've ever encountered. And then you get to go back through time and discover the other stuff.
And that is very much like following a sports team over time. The symbol is what is eternal, and it's worn by many different players through different eras. And really the thing that remains is the fandom itself. And this is true in superhero comics as well. Like, you are part of a legacy. It's not just you. So even when you're doing really well, you are also planning for your exit and, you know, you're trying to create a transition that will allow other creators who might come after you to succeed, or even other characters who might wear that badge to succeed. And that's something that immediately clicked with me coming into soccer. And I was like, oh my gosh, they do so much succession planning, in exactly the same way that we do in superhero books where you're like, okay, you know, we've got this great squad now, but what about five years from now? And how do we think about who's gonna come into the coaching staff?
It's a really necessary symbiosis between the team itself and the fans who are the engine of the whole thing, as they are with a superhero book, because if they stop buying the book, you no longer have a product to sell. And so that facet of sports and soccer specifically was just fascinating to me, and very cathartic. And also when you're in that kind of team sport, whether it's literally in the case of a soccer team or figuratively on a superhero book where you're sort of one part of a machine that includes artists and letterers and colorists and editors: the wins are communal; the Ls are on you. It's really humbling to be in that position where you're like, you know, if I mess up, I'm not gonna shove the blame onto other people. I'm not gonna expect everybody to sort of take the blame. But when we win, we bring everybody in. And I was not expecting to see that much overlap between those two things, and between the fans in general. It’s amazing, the number of comic book fans who are also sports fans who I sort of discovered in the course of this journey who also see that.
Shireen: I didn't realize that as well until you had been on another podcast. And then I was like, wait a minute, why has Willow not been on our podcast? [Willow laughs] It's actually one of the things where I don't think society as a whole or like mainstream media places or whatever have explored those intersections. You know, Kamala Khan, for a lot of people, she's at those intersections. Like, one of my biggest places of which I fan the most has been Bend It Like Beckham, because it's specific of the intersections at which I never saw before, South Asian women and sport. I sort of talk about my connection to soccer, because it’s one of the places where I felt accepted and part of something that was greater than myself. And that's, you know, maybe essentially what you're talking about here, is like, you talk about the wins. You take the Ls, but then when you win, you take everybody with you. And when our political climate right now sucks – like, let's just be honest, it's terrible – sports can offer us some hope in a way.
Willow: A hundred percent.
Shireen: So does Kamala Khan. And she's flawed. I mean, she's also a teen in like Jersey City. [Willow laughs] So like obviously, you know? I was watching your TEDx talk, and you mentioned specifically there's parallel forms of anxiety in Muslims that you had also seen. And there's that same type of anxiety in sports fans and in society. So, to really touch upon those vulnerabilities as well. Have you seen those type of vulnerabilities in being a sports fan? Like, do you find yourself vulnerable to like the stress of winning and culture?
Willow: Yes, I do. You know, and that too is unexpected. Like, the highs are high, the lows are low. [laughs] And again, I think there's parallels here between this and being a superhero fan, whether it's through the comics or through the movies or the shows, is that sports give you a way to externalize anxieties, and also happiness. It's sort of a vessel to carry both your fears and your hopes at the same time. When we can spread them around, it’s very cathartic. And I think that's why, especially as you pointed out at this moment in history, when so much is on the line, so much feels unstable, there's so much uncertainty; being able to share those anxieties and hopes becomes extra essential. You know, I wonder if that's why we're seeing this heightened focus and heightened sort of emotion around things like the Marvel Cinematic Universe or, you know, the comic books, and sports as well, is because this is a very high emotion period of history. And so those outlets become more essential.
And, you know, you were talking about, and I thought this was a really good observation, that we see pieces of ourselves in different things and different people that might not be totally representative of all of our experience, and yet at the same time there's a connection that we might not have expected. Like, oh, you know, I've never been a teenager in Jersey City, but I sure know how that feels. You know, I think that's incredibly valuable now when we are so fragmented, to be like, oh, you know, this isn't my story, but I see a piece of myself in this. And now I feel invested in a team or a group of people or a superhero that I might have felt had nothing to do with me in the past. And, you know, like Kamala Khan being a fangirl was super, super important for that very reason, that she starts out as one of us. You know, she has the same anxieties. She has the same highs and lows and hopes and fears, and the same enthusiasm for the sorts of things that the readers do.
So, you know, even if you're not a teenage Pakistani American girl growing up in Jersey City, which is a very specific obviously identity, you've been that person at the convention, you know, worrying about wardrobe malfunctions with your costume that you made at home the night before and, you know, trying to fit in with peers. So, you know, that relatability, I think, is what makes her such a touchstone for so many people that, you know, are never gonna have superpowers, and yet have been that teenage person with posters up on their wall saying, like, at least I can dream. We're all dreaming. [laughs] And it's nice when we can dream together. And that's really what fandom means.
Shireen: Yeah. That's beautiful. So, if Kamala Khan was gonna be an MLS fan, which should be a New York City FC fan?
Willow: Oh, I have had conversations about this. [laughter] You know, Sana and I talked way back in the day before I got into soccer about what sports teams she might or might not be a fan of. And we settled on probably hockey, probably a Devils fan. And actually in the video game, the Avengers video game of which she is a main POV character, she's shown on the train coming back from…It’s never said that it's a Devils game, but ostensibly a Devils game. But I had this conversation with some fans on Twitter and I was like, I don't know. This is my prejudice showing, but both of the New York teams who play in New Jersey but are not New Jersey teams are kind of very sort of corporate FCs. And I was like, I don't know. Can I make her an NYCFC fan? Like, you know, obviously I no longer write the series. She’s safely in other hands. If they wanna make that call, that's up to them. But in my head, I think if she were to be an MLS fan, she'd have to be a Philadelphia Union fan. That's way more her scene, I think, than either of the New York but technically New Jersey teams. But with that said, I have to add the caveat that I am no longer in a position to say one way or the other whether these things are canon. [laughs] So take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Shireen: I love this. And I mean, let's not rule our PHF.
Willow: Yes!
Shireen: In the women's hockey league, she could be a Metropolitan Riveters fan. But the fact that you just said that she's probably into hockey, I love all of this and it makes me more connected to her. Because like, hockey's not a place where we see a lot of people like her, which is also true to form. And Gotham FC, women’s soccer. She could be that. But I love that, because it's where you wouldn't expect her to be, is exactly where she is.
Willow: It's exactly where she is.
Shireen: So, I wanted to just touch back upon your fandom while we're talking about this. So, getting into MLS in the height of COVID, they were coming off an incredibly successful season one MLS, the MLS Cup in 2019, went to the finals in 2020, and are sort of like, you came in on a high when everyone's on a high. And where are you right now? How are you guys doing this season?
Willow: [laughs] Oh, I am still on a high. So in May, the Sounders became the first MLS team of the modern era to win the CONCACAF champions league final. And I was at that game. And I'm gonna spend a long time chasing that high, I have to tell you! I mean, that was really incredible. And you're absolutely right, like, would I feel another way if I came in when we were doing really poorly? I don't know, maybe. I mean, to me, the human drama and the investment is still there, even when we lose and are doing poorly. And, you know, I was very pleased to find that…I don't know if this is soccer fans in general or MLS fans in general or Seattle fans specifically, but you know, whenever there's like a bad call or we lose or something, immediately there is a “this ref made the wrong call – here's a graph!” you know, here's a diagram, here's some math. [laughs] You know, like to show why this call was ridiculous, or why this should have been a penalty, or whatever, you know? Which I love. But yeah. Oh my gosh, to be in a stadium with like 70,000 other people, and the thing that nobody thought was possible is happening in front of your eyes, and it's getting dark and everybody turns on the flashlights on their phones and it's just…Oh my god, magical. Absolutely magical.
Shireen: I can feel that scene as you're describing it.
Willow: Yeah, you can probably see…I mean, obviously the listeners can't see this, [Shireen laughs] but I have the the scarf from that game and, you know, like coming off that high, it was tough to sort of get back into league play, but now we’re destroying it – knock on wood. We have a game tonight. But it's a really cool group of people, and I'm sure everybody thinks this about their team and the fans, but it really is special, even when we're not doing well. That sense of community is still there.
Shireen: And I love that you just said that community, because that's really what a lot of teams and grassroots fan groups do. You know, I'm wondering, as somebody who doesn't shy away from identity – you're a Muslim woman who's in this space, and in a way public facing, because of the work you do, and, you know, with the characters you help create and what you write about, and the ethos behind that. Have you found that to be an easy transition into the sports realm? Because sometimes sports can be a very unforgiving place for people on the margins.
Willow: Yeah, no, I haven't found that yet. [laughs] You know, is it still a honeymoon phase? I don't know. But I mean, this is the impression I get. I think the fact that soccer or football globally has been such an overtly political game since it's inception. I mean, literally, you know, there've been ultras who've been a part of national liberation movements. You know, I was watching the CAF finals, which is the, the African champions league, because whoever wins that is gonna play the Sounders in any theoretical club world cup games that will happen, who knows when. And the winners of that was Wydad AC from Morocco. And so I was kind of Googling them, you know, very basically, and my jaw was on the floor because, you know, this club had literally been part of the push for Moroccan independence way the way back in sort of the middle of the 20th century. And you look all over the world and soccer or football clubs have always had some sort of political angle to them because they're such an enmeshed, usually, part of the local community where they are based.
So I feel like that's carried over into soccer in the US in a way that it hasn't for other sports who have been politically neutral, you know? They have been like, we're not gonna get involved. Whereas you see a lot of soccer clubs being like, we're gonna say something, you know? Like if something happens, whether it's the Supreme Court ruling that came down recently regarding Roe V. Wade, you know, or Black Lives Matter, or anything else, you see clubs making official statements. And obviously, you know, like, not being deeply involved in other sports, I can't say categorically, oh, this never happens in American football, or whatever. But I know just sort of having watched what unfolded in sports specifically regarding the Black Lives Matter movement here in the United States, that there certainly is more resistance, it seems like, in other sports to being overtly political.
Shireen: And I think in some ways – and I’m by no means an authority on this. I always have deferred to Brenda, you know, she's our resident expert on soccer. I mean, I talk a lot of global. But with men's soccer in the United States, it's still growing. I will actually be in Portland in the end of September. Maybe you can come to Portland and we can go to a Timbers game together.
Willow: Oh, a Timber’s game! [laughter]
Shireen: No? No. Okay. I'm like, what if they play in Seattle though? That would be fantastic.
Willow: That would be hilarious. No. Yeah. I would love that. I would love to go to a soccer game with you. And, you know, as you're talking, I'm realizing too that we're sort of giving short shrift to the women's game in the US, which does not shy from anything. You know, the the NWSL and some of the smaller local clubs, oh my gosh. You know, we have OL Reign here in Seattle. They don't even need to be prodded. They don't wait for the fans to start bothering them on Twitter. They're just all the way out there being proactively a place for advocacy. You know, not just for women in sports, but for everybody who lives on the margins. And it's just amazing, you know, to see that level of advocacy from a sports group. But I have to really take my hat off to the women's teams here in the United States who are, yeah, absolutely on the forefront.
Shireen: I didn't wanna get into women's soccer with you because I'm like a long, hard Thorns fan. [Willow laughs] Like, Christine Sinclair, like I mean, my scarf is right over there, right over there. And I was like, do I say that to her? I mean, it's nothing that I haven't said.
Willow: Yeah. You know, we might be on different teams sort of on a lowercase level, but on an uppercase level, we're definitely on the same side. [laughs]
Shireen: And you know what, I would love to come and go see a Seattle Storm game with you.
Willow: Wouldn't that be amazing?
Shireen: Have you connected with the W yet? There's a lot of superheroes in that league, so like…
Willow: Oh my gosh. Yes. The fact that we have this amazing women's basketball team and no men's basketball team in Seattle, [Shireen laughs] at a professional level, in any case, is fascinating. Because a lot of people who I think were Sonics fans are now Storm fans, and super into the team and follow the team, even if they don't follow other women's teams, they are super into the Storm. So that's really cool. I have not been to a game, but I would love to go with somebody like you who is more knowledgeable about the game of basketball, because I'd be watching as somebody without any technical knowledge of the sport who's just sort of like there to absorb it all. That would be really amazing.
Shireen: Yeah. Like, I think that experience of the W is phenomenal. We don't have a team, we don't have any domestic women's leagues in Canada for hockey, soccer, or basketball, which is a shame. And all of our people go down to the United States. I mean, like, I just think, you know, I was like a New York Liberty fan because of Kia Nurse. So the Canadian connection, the UConn connection. I'm a huge UConn basketball fan. And now I'm like, I love Chicago Sky because Azurá Stevens has been on our show before, and I love her dearly. I just I want the game to win. I want women's basketball to win, and I want a team to come to Toronto, and I wanna go to Seattle and visit you. I did get one really cool question from somebody on Twitter when I put a call out. And if you could pick five a side from Marvel characters for a football game, a soccer game, what would be the two teams that went up against each other?
Willow: Oh my goodness. So I saw this, I saw that question, and I was like, that's really good. And I also saw that they said specifically no polymorphs in goal. You can't have somebody who can just stretch themselves out to fill up the whole goal.
Shireen: Well, it's a fair point.
Willow: It's a fair point. But they left a gaping hole in this logic, because they did not say no telepaths in goal. [Shireen laughs] So I would put Jean Grey in goal. There would be no such thing as scoring a penalty. She would always know which way the striker was gonna go. There would be none of this Panenka business. She would get the ball every single time. So I actually only did one five a side. I didn't come up with like the bad guy's side.
Shireen: Okay. Give it to me.
Willow: In goal, we have Jean Grey. For defenders, we would have Colossus and Iron Man, for very obvious reasons. Nobody's getting through those guys. Nobody will even try to get past them because, you know, a sliding tackle from one of those and your playing career or probably your life is over. So then in the midfield we'd want Captain Marvel. We'd want Carol Danvers, because in midfield you need a tactician who is both smart and fast and strong. And she has all of those things. And for a striker, I picked Quicksilver, because fast. [laughs] If I was gonna root for a side, that would be the side I'd pick. That's my ideal starting five. It would be really fun to go back through and do like a villain's five a side, but I haven't had time to think that one through. But if I think of some, I'll put it on Twitter. I'll tag you guys, like, this is the villain's five a side.
Shireen: I love every one you suggested. Jean Grey is like, you nailed it there. I’m like, this game is over before it started.
Willow: Nothing is getting through. [laughs]
Shireen: The only thing I might say is I might put Black Widow as striker, as an assassin.
Willow: Ooh, an assassin! I like that.
Shireen: So, I mean, you know, fast, a hundred percent Quicksilver, but I'm like, because of the aggressive way that the training and the mentality…
Willow: No, you know what? I think you're right, because this is thus far a very defensively minded five. And so you really do need an assassin style striker who is like hiding just sort of off the shoulder of the defender. And then bam, comes out of nowhere.
Shireen: Because you're right about Carol Danvers being the playmaker and the engine and the brains of the operation. But you know, the striker usually finishes off the plan.
Willow: A little bit stealthy here. No, I like that. Yes, you are a hundred percent correct. Let's amend this.
Shireen: I'm just gonna make this our full-time job now, to just create five a sides and then have them play each other in my head.
Willow: That's perfect.
Shireen: And last thing: what's your favorite food? And if you're gonna ask the Seattle Sounders to offer it in the stadium.
Willow: If I had to choose one, you know, I could be fancy and be like, oh, it's this like, you know, very niche dish or whatever, but honest to god, it's an ice cream sundae.
Shireen: Oh, I love that.
Willow: One scoop of vanilla, one scoop of cookie dough, and then on top chocolate sauce, but the good kind, like actual fudge. Pecans, whipped cream, cherries, the whole thing, because it's sort of like, it's all of the textures. It's all of the flavors. But I'm sure there must be high quality ice cream somewhere at Lumen. I have to say, usually when I go, I go with my kids. We sit in the southwest section, which is near the supporters section, and that area right outside where we sit has Dippin Dots, but no real ice cream.
Shireen: Oh, Dippin’ Dots!
Willow: Dippin’ Dots, the classic stadium food. So my kids are now obsessed with Dippin’ Dots, but that doesn't cut it for me. I need the full sundae experience.
Shireen: And I loved how specific you were. I just have to say this, you're somebody for whom details are like, I see that they're important to you. I also see that you said pecans, which is incredible because they're very different. Elevated.
Willow: Yes. If it's peanuts or it's walnuts, it changes the experience.
Shireen: Yeah. Walnuts and pecans cannot be interchanged. Like, they're two very different.
Willow: They cannot. They're my favorite of the tree nuts.
Shireen: That's so funny you say that, because it's the same with me. And I come from Pakistan and Afghanistan. So like, I'm supposed to say cashews.
Willow: Cashews would be number two for me.
Shireen: But not on a sundae though, right? Like, not on a sundae.
Willow: Not on a sundae. They have that very forward flavor.
Shireen: Very meaty.
Willow: But I love cashews.
Shireen: Yeah. Just wanted to thank you for being on Burn It All Down and talking all these beautiful things and sharing your wisdom and your insights. And we talk a lot of soccer on this show and have appreciated it at different levels. We, you know, burn down the systems that exist, and then to have you come and share your light to lift up some of the happiness. So, your story is one that I love and that I'll think about when I'm like, I hate soccer! Politics are terrible! But then remind me, remind me of why this is so beautiful and important. So thank you for being on Burn It All Down.
Willow: Thank you so much for having me, Shireen. This has been a delight.
Shireen: That's all for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And of course, thank you, thank you, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world to us. And if you wanna become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. We could not do this without you. Burn on, and not out.