Interview: Hanif Abdurraqib, writer and cultural critic, on the NBA Playoffs and the Romantic Anguish of Fandom

In this episode, Jessica Luther talks with Hanif Abdurraqib, poet, essayist and cultural critic, about his love for basketball. They break down the NBA playoffs, WNBA expansion and the romanticized anguish of fandom.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Jessica: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. Jessica here. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Hanif Abdurraqib to the show. Hanif is one of the most beautiful writers, most interesting thinkers, and most important cultural critics working today. If you've not given yourself the pleasure of reading his writing, you must correct that immediately. He is the author of They Can't Kill Us Until They Kill Us, Go Ahead in the Rain: Notes to A Tribe Called Quest, and the recent A Little Devil in America: Notes in Praise of Black Performance, which was a finalist for the national book award. He's also a poet, and is the author of a volume of poems called A Fortune for Your Disaster. You can find his writing at a variety of places, including the Paris Review, the New York Times, Pinwheel, Brooklyn Magazine and Bleacher Report. He also runs '68 to ’05, a playlist project where he commissions essays about music and compiles playlists of music from different years.

He's also very successful in the podcast realm, with Object of Sound and Lost Notes: 1980. He did a great two piece podcast series with The 11th titled Time Machine. And I recently heard him on a wonderful episode of Still Processing about TV theme songs. He's also a MacArthur fellowship recipient, meaning he got one of those so-called genius grants. And perhaps most importantly – you can tell me, Hanif – he's from and loves Columbus, Ohio. So, while we're going to touch on some of this maybe, in the interview he is primarily here at Burn It All Down today to talk about the NBA, his own fandom, and these current playoffs. Welcome to Burn It All Down, Hanif.

Hanif: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's really great to be here.

Jessica: I actually first wanted to ask about soccer, because you were a soccer player. So, tell me how you got into playing soccer, and what position did you play?

Hanif: Yeah, so, I got into soccer because I think I had a natural skill set for it. 

Jessica: Oh, tell me more about that. 

Hanif: Yeah. So, basketball was my first sport, and I love basketball and, you know, played basketball as well. But I have very good instincts, I’m very quick, or I was very quick – slightly less quick these days. And I was just good with the ball at my foot, even though I didn't, you know, I didn't grow up playing soccer. I have good balance, these kinds of things. So I was a good defender, which is funny because the thing that kind of kept me off the floor in basketball was that I had no interest in playing defense. But in soccer I played central defender, outside defender, anywhere along the back line, a little bit of defensive midfield. And then when I got to college, I played…I was a little too short to play kind of center back, and so I played on the outside and I moved up to forward, which was interesting because, you know, I was very fast and so there’s…But you can't really teach finishing, you know? It's hard to teach finishing at that level. And I could shoot from distance well, but for some reason, being in front of the goal was really challenging for me. And I never really figured that out.

But I was effective enough, I think, because sometimes you just need a striker who's fast enough to put pressure on the back line. And that was kinda my role, you know? But when it got to kind of like me directly in front of the goal, it was so puzzling. Less so now. It's funny, because now, like, I don't really play soccer as much anymore. If I'm playing like rec league sports, it's usually basketball. But when I was playing rec league in my twenties, it was always indoor, and I was so good at scoring goals because it's just that kind of the pace of indoor soccer suited me a bit more. It's more chaotic. It's just about kind of like wherever the ball bounces, if you're there, you know? The pitch is a lot smaller, you know, it's just like a different vibe. 

Jessica: I love it. So, you mentioned that basketball was your first love. Tell me what you love about basketball. 

Hanif: Well, it's interesting because my relationship with basketball was informed mostly…I mean, I'm a big NBA fan, but I'm also a big fan of W, like, huge fan of WNBA. And we can talk a bit about that too. But some of that is because my first engagement with live basketball was women's basketball because of the ABL, the very short-lived ABL. 

Jessica: Oh, wow. 

Hanif: I don't know if folks listening will remember the ABL, but the team that was most successful during the ABL’s very brief run was the Columbus Quest, with Katie Smith and Tonya Edwards, and they were coached by Brian Agler. And what happened was this thing where, you know, once the W began, everyone from the Columbus Quest essentially…Like, Brian Agler left to coach the Minnesota Lynx and just brought everyone with him, you know? But for two years they were the champions, and no one, you know, those games you could get into for like nothing, you know? They played in the convention center. I'm pretty sure the games were free, because I was at so many of them. [Jessica laughs] And my family was not very…My family had no money, and so the games had to be free. But I say all that to say I got to watch up close these very fascinating, like, one-on-one battles. You know, the ABL was like, it was a pro league, but a lot of the women who were playing in it were just kind of angling for, you know, at that point, the WNBA was like bubbling up under the surface, and so they were kind of just like passing time. Not saying that they didn't take it seriously, but you could tell that it was like a lot of Katie Smith isos, you know? 

And so I got to watch what I grew to love most about basketball, which is this kind of one-on-one dance between an offensive player and a defensive player in a really small, contained space. It is why I still to this day kind of love guards. I love inventive dribbling. I love this idea of like basketball as an escape, as a seeking of small doorways. It's why I like watching Steph Curry off the ball, you know, because he's always kind of seeking that escape, that like little window, sliver of space to escape through. And I keep referencing Katie Smith because she is kind of the first person I watched and was like, oh, she's always moving. Like, even when it doesn't seem like she's moving, she's always moving. And she was always just looking for a small sliver of space, right? I think it's overused talk about basketball as poetry, but there's a kind of poetics in that kind of seeking that I really love. But also, I love it for all the artificial reasons too. Like, I love dunks and I love trash talk and, you know, I love a player who has an immense amount of swagger. You know, I grew up with Allen Iverson and just adored him to, you know, have a player his size and his level of dominance was so special to me. 

Jessica: That is so great. Do you watch the college game?

Hanif: Oh yeah, yeah. It's so funny, I'm working on I'm working on my next book right now, which is vaguely about basketball, though not really, you know. I think I'm tricking people. 

Jessica: I was going to ask you about this, because the New York Times, in a profile recently, wrote, “He's writing a book about basketball.” Something to that effect.

Hanif: Yeah, it's funny because…And I say this to say that, like, it opens with me talking about the fab five, because that was the first college team I loved, but really the whole opening chapters, it begins with the fab five, but it's just about how much I love bald people, like, growing up loving ball people. My father's bald, my grandfather was bald. There's a huge bit about Meshell Ndegeocello. You know, it's like, I think it'll be interesting when people actually get their hands on this book in two years or whatever, they're going to be like, this isn't just about basketball! But yeah, I love the college game. I actually grew up loving the college game more than the pro game. Some of this was because guys just stayed, you know? 

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.

Hanif: I still love the college game now, but it's a different kind of love, you know? I grew up loving those Ohio State teams too, you know, the like Randy Ayers teams, Mike Redd and George Reese and these folks. So, my love for the college game is probably more expansive now. 

Jessica: What do you mean by expansive? 

Hanif: Well, because growing up, it was hard to watch women's college basketball. 

Jessica: Yes. We've met once, so you know I'm six feet tall, and I was like a middle schooler then playing middle school basketball as like this giant. And that would have been, you know, the early to mid-90s. Yeah. I can remember just trying to seek out women's college ball on television. Someone bought me – probably my dad – bought me some giant, like, hard back photo book of women playing college ball that I used to just like look at all the time, because it was my one way in. I remember trying to seek it out just to see whatever I could. It was much harder then. 

Hanif: It was way harder. And growing up, for me, if you grew up kind of in any neighborhood where people could hoop – which I did, I grew up on the east side of Columbus. And I feel like that growing up on the east side of Columbus in the 90s, that really meant something, like, people could hoop for real.

Jessica: Right. Right.

Hanif: And if you grew up in any area where people could hoop for real, undoubtedly it's not just dudes hooping, you know? Like, young women were playing, I was playing against them in pickup. They were on the courts. They were like, you know, really playing. But it was hard for me to find on television women's basketball. Even when the WNBA hit and that was on TV, it was still hard to find college basketball, women’s basketball. I mean, now I think because I have more access to it and also…So, I lived in Connecticut for two and a half years. And before that, I didn't really have a WNBA team. I just kinda watched. But I lived in Connecticut from like 2014 to 2017, which meant that, you know, Breanna Stewart was at UConn. And that also meant that the Connecticut Sun were like not very good in that era. 

Jessica: [laughs] Oh, right!

Hanif: So, this thing was happening where like I wanted to go to UConn games, but you just truly could not get in. Like, there was a point I remember like one morning – I forgot who they were playing, it was a kind of big game – and I just had never seen her play. I'd never seen Breanna Stewart play in person. I was like, I gotta go. And I tried to pull up early early to get a ticket and waited and waited, waited. [Jessica laughs] It was just impossible. But the Sun, wasn't nobody going to them games. Like, them games were like…So, I kind of fell into this thing. And they were like, the Sun was that kind of shit you do when you were just like in the casino, you know, if you were bored in the casino and the numbers weren't hitting.

Jessica: You go sit down. [laughs] Watch a game.

Hanif: Yeah. Yeah. So, I would watch a game. I would go watch the Sun, you know, and I think this comes to life with my Timberwolves fandom too, all my sports fandom. I'm just drawn the teams that are…Now, the Sun are good. So it's like, you know, this is whatever. [laughs] This is me saying this. 

Jessica: But they have that whole thing about–

Hanif: Underdogs. 

Jessica: They're always acting like people are doubting them. 

Hanif: Yeah. It’s like–

Jessica: Everyone's like, you are winning! [laughs]

Hanif: But I think it's because…I fell in love with that team because it was like, these are kind of like lovable losers at the moment. But even when they were bad, you could tell that they weren't like hapless entirely. But it was this thing where it was like, this is my kind of team, a team no one's checking for, no one really cares about. Whenever people talk about like pro sports in Connecticut, it was always like, well, UConn’s women are the best pro sports team, you know? Much like Ohio State football is Columbus's NFL team in that way.

Jessica: Right. Of course.

Hanif: But I never saw…I saw Breanna Stewart playing in college one time, and it wasn't in Connecticut. They were playing an away game. Because I was like, I gotta see her play, and it was only way I could see her play was going to an away game.

Jessica: Aaron and I went to a University of Texas women's basketball game when Jody Conradt was still coaching. We went when UConn came to town, and there were a ton of UConn people in the stands. And there was this couple sitting behind us and they had flown in because that was how they could watch a UConn game, was to fly to Austin from wherever they lived. That was easier at that time than trying to get in to see them.

Hanif: I'd never seen anything like that, you know, and I mean, truly, and I'm from Columbus, you know, where OSU football is a religious infrastructure. But I'd never seen anything like being around UConn in that era. And I'm sure it's still like that now, you know, and I'm sure it's been like that before. Truly, you could not get into those games. And as bitter as I was at the moment, it's kind of cool in retrospect. But even when Sabrina was at Oregon, I feel like you could get into those games, you know? Like, I saw like an Oregon State-Oregon game, you know? It’s like these kinds of things. In Connecticut, you know, UConn women’s basketball is their religion in a way that I was not prepared for when I was there.

Jessica: I love that. So, you mentioned your Timberwolves fandom, and I wanted to know why, why is this your team? Why? Because why not the Cavaliers, I guess?

Hanif: I think I'd say for me, so, my whole family, with the exception of me and my brother, who's like 16 months apart from me or so, is from New York. You know, they moved to Ohio in the early 80s, and so I grew up mostly around Knicks fans. Some I’d rate their Knicks fandom from like, on a scale of passive to a little bit intense, you know. This is when the Knicks were good. So they were on TV often in the playoffs, often. And when they got to the playoffs, I feel like my older siblings and my dad would be a little more intense around them. My mom really loved Charles Smith. And I just did not like the Knicks. I didn't like the way they played. I sometimes liked John Starks, but not often, you know? And conversely, I also didn't really like the Cavs. I liked Terrell Brandon, but he wasn't there yet, you know, if we're talking like early 90s. Now, of course, this was also in the era of Michael Jordan. But something happened in that like Michael Jordan retirement year, or just a little bit before it, and it's that Kevin Garnett went to the Timberwolves. 

Jessica: Ah, of course. Yes. 

Hanif: And if you were in the Midwest, you know, we didn't always have cable, but you could get this kind of buffet of midwest sports teams, like on local TV – the Pacers, Bulls on WGN, Cavs, without a doubt. If you get into the upper midwest, you get Bucks and you get Timberwolves. And the Timberwolves are kind of a fascination because they had KG, who was this like out a high school…And I was just so into them. I was so into him as a player, much like what drew me to the Sun and what draws me to teams, always. It was kind of like, well, this is the team that no one seems to be interested in, you know, except me. Like, none of my friends were into the Timberwolves. Everyone was into the Knicks or the Bulls, or, you know, the occasional Lakers fan, but not a ton. Columbus was a heavy Knicks/Bulls kind of thing – Cavs sometimes, but Knicks, Bulls, for sure. And so it felt like I was rooting for these outsiders.

You know, the thing about fandom always is the entry point can be anything. We stumble into these things almost accidentally. And then they become a large part of our identities, you know? And so, you know, I never really detached from that Timberwolves fandom, even when it seemed…And I think they also became…I latched onto them in an interesting era because I watched them at the beginning of the Kevin Garnett era, and I got to watch him ascend through the ranks of that era, and rooting for them then became this real practice in persistence, because they were kind of just running up against the wall in the playoffs every year, every single year.

You know, I don't really watch the NFL anymore, but when I did, I was a Bengals fan. Like, I grew up a Bengals fan and I loved…I mean, it's so funny to think how far I have detached from my NFL fandom, because I didn't even fucking know the Bengals were good this year [Jessica laughs] until like they were in the the conference final and the playoffs. And I was like, oh shit, the Bengals are good? And I watched a bit of Super Bowl because…I don't know. If they had won…It was just so funny to think though, because I remember being like 19 and being like, man, if the Bengals ever make it to a Super Bowl in my lifetime, I'm going. And now this year I was like, I'm not getting on a plane to no damn Super Bowl! [Jessica laughs] But they were kind of the same thing where the Bengals would for years run up against this wall, the playoffs, round one, get out, round one, get out.

And there's something kind of…I am a hopeful – well, I'm not a hopeful person. [laughter] But I kind of have used up all my stores of optimism on frivolous things like sports, right? And there is something like uniquely demoralizing about a team good enough to make the playoffs but not do anything in the playoffs, because you have to linger in this like in-between space where you're not bad enough to rebuild, but you're not good enough to actually do a lot. And you just kind of have to be satisfied with making it to the playoffs. And so that was the Timberwolves for me for a while, until that breakthrough year with Cassell and Sprewell. And it's so funny because I look back on those years and how anguished and upset I was during those years when the Timberwolves would get eliminated in the playoffs. And I think about the last, you know, mostly 15, 16 years of Timberwolves fandom, and how much I would want that back. 

Jessica: [laughs] Of course.

Hanif: I would love to have a team good enough to make the playoffs every year. 

Jessica: How are you feeling after this season with the Timberwolves making it through the play in? 

Hanif: Yeah. Well, I'm optimistic, but I'm reminded of…Sports fandom is so strange. As I age, I think my relationship with it changes, of course, but right now I just need sports to be a source of something other than anguish. And I am aware that most sports fans that I seem to interact with rely on anguish as propulsion, right? 

Jessica: Yeah. Yes.

Hanif: And for me, that was romantic, at a point. I mean, I live in Ohio, right? And most of my pals are like Cleveland sports fans who just…And I'm writing about Cleveland sports fandom right now, and there is romanticism to that particular type of anguish, where they have invested so much into their reliance on heartbreak that perhaps the heartbreak is more sweet than the success. Or heartbreak makes the kind of out of nowhere singular success more alluring. Like, I'm writing right now about this kind of weird thing that happened in the 2016 finals when the Cavs got down 3-1. I knew so many Cavs fans who were so conditioned to that kind of emotional letdown that part of them was like, well, you know, we made it this far and I'm glad we made it this far, and like, I'm not expecting anything. But there was a part of them too that was like, but what if? And that's such a weird space to occupy.

But I guess that's a long answer to say that I feel good. You know, I'm like alarmed by the amount of Timberwolves fans who think that they should blow up the team and start again and rebuild, or trade Karl Towns for whatever they think they're going to get for Karl Towns, which isn't, you know…There’s no greater gap, I think, in the NBA fans’ mind than the gap between like, you know, what Karl Towns is on the floor and what his trade value is. Because people are saying, well, you know, he's not as good as you think. He's not as…You know, he's got these flaws. But then when it comes time to like trade Karl Towns, people are like, oh, you can get a lot for him. So it's like, what is the truth? [Jessica laughs] I don't want to be in a position where this team is rebuilding. I think the playoffs were…I did not panic much during the playoffs. Now, those games where they gave up those big leads were definitely…

Jessica: That was…Yeah. Yeah.

Hanif: That was rough. It was rough to see. And I'm trying…My therapist has me doing a thing where I say “and” instead of “but” because she thinks it'll work on my pessimism. [laughter] So it's a good exercise, perhaps. We'll see. So yeah, I mean, those collapses were difficult and I just think that's what happens when you're a team that is young and inexperienced and doesn't know how to win. You don't know how to win in playoffs. To be fair, like, giving up two 20 point leads in one game is egregious. There's like no dressing that up. But I also just think that's what happens when you just don't know how to win. And I think it’s hard. I did go to Game 4 in Minnesota, which would have been a lot sweeter had they not collapsed in Game 3 the way they did, but it was really quite…I mean, they won Game 4. To see a Timberwolves playoff win in person in my lifetime I think was something I really did not think I would get to do. And so, that was great. I will always remember that. I'll always remember being in the arena when they won Game 4. 

Jessica: So, to be clear to everyone listening, we're recording on Monday, May 9th, and where we stand is that the Milwaukee Bucks are leading the Boston Celtics 2-1 in their series. Memphis Grizzlies with a possibly injured Ja Morant are down 1 game to 2 against the Golden State Warriors. The Philadelphia 76ers behind apparently a resurgent James Harden leveled their series with the Miami Heat at 2-2, and the Dallas Mavericks are also tied with the Phoenix Suns at 2-2. This will come out before Game 6 for any of these series. So, these eight teams will still be going at it by the time everyone hears this. Are you, now that the Timberwolves are out, are you rooting for any specific team that's left?

Hanif: Nah, which is great. It's great to have the freedom of just…It’s so freeing. I really like Joel Embiid so much, you know? And I have turned the corner on him a lot, because I think like a lot of fans, I was so annoyed by him in the first act of his career, because it seemed like so much substantial play, sure, but he was so grating and I think he was a little immature on the floor. But I think he actually maybe doesn't get enough credit for this kind of complete inside-out reinvention that he's done. Like, his game has evolved, absolutely. But I think personality wise, he’s also reinvented himself maybe after, you know, in the season where they lost to Toronto. But really after that, he's become just kind of like singularly motivated. And I'm just such a big fan of his. I’m such a big fan of his game. It would be kind of cool…My heart says I don't think the Sixers or the Heat can beat the Bucks or the Celtics, but I would like to see the Sixers just get a crack at the eastern conference finals again. I really would. I also like the Heat. You know, some Timberwolves fans have this weird like residual animosity towards Jimmy Butler, which I just don't have. 

Jessica: He's playing lights out, at least in this last game.

Hanif: Yeah. You know, and he's really great to watch when he's locked in. And I know the way he left Minnesota was not ideal. I didn't love it in the moment. I was really frustrated with it in the moment, but I'm really thankful for the time that Minnesota got him. And he has also just like found his team in Miami. He's found the place where he can kind of be…Like, you get the full Jimmy Butler experience in a way that so richly enhances everyone around him. And so Miami and Philly's kind of washed, but I would maybe like to see Joel Embiid get another crack at getting through the finals, but the rest of them, I'm just kind of enjoying the games, which is great. I'm a little puzzled by the Phoenix-Dallas series because–

Jessica: Yeah, the fact that Dallas is hanging in there.

Hanif: I thought that was going to be a sweep. And it seemed like Phoenix had this strategy the first couple of games of we're just going to let Luka do whatever he wants and stop the other guys. And that worked. Luka was getting, you know, 40 points, but they were getting blown out. And it seemed like they shifted to this strategy that doesn’t serve them as well, because I think with Dallas, you can't really be like, well, let's slow down Luka and let these other guys beat us, because those other motherfuckers can beat you, you know? [Jessica laughs] It's not like he's playing…I think the Mavs are heliocentric, like Luka is…

Jessica: Yeah, obviously. Yeah.

Hanif: They revolve around him, right? But it's not like he's playing with a bunch of scrubs either. You know, those guys, with all respect to Nikola Jokić, like, these aren't the Nuggets, you know? You can't be like, let’s focus all our attention on this one guy and let the other guys beat us, because Jalen Brunson can beat you. Dorian Finney-Smith can beat you. Like, these guys can beat you. Apparently Davis Bertans can still beat you. [laughter] And so, that series has been interesting to watch. I still think the Suns are going to pull it out. But it would kind of be interesting if they didn't. I say this as someone who really thinks, for the sake of legacy, it would be cool if Chris Paul got a ring, right?

Jessica: I know. There's a big part of me with that, where I would just like to see him accomplish that. He doesn't need to…

Hanif: He doesn’t need it, but it would be nice. It’d be cool.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Has anything surprised you in these playoffs? 

Hanif: Yeah, well, you know, I think the Celtics just continue to surprise me, because it just seems like they’re...I know the teams evolve as seasons go, and that's always delightful, but the Celtics, that first act of the season for the Celtics was so uniquely atrocious. Like, their record was mediocre, but the games were bad. They were just really atrocious. And I don't know. They just kind of turned it on on every level. And that has been a real delight. I think Jayson Tatum continues to surprise me. It just seems like he’s…I've always liked Jayson Tatum, you know, I just like these kinds of guys who are big volume scorers who look cool scoring. [Jessica laughs] I think Jayson Tatum just looks very cool scoring the basketball. But I think he doesn't get enough credit for both sides. He's an incredible defender too and I think he always rises to the occasion of wanting to guard a star. And I'm impressed with the Celtics. That's been surprising. I'm a little surprised to see how quickly the narrative has shifted on the Grizzlies.

Jessica: Yeah! Yes.

Hanif: I feel like people were like, I love this young feel-good team! Now people are like, okay, shut up. Enough. [laughter]

Jessica: They’re a mess. Yeah, yeah.

Hanif: It’s wild.

Jessica: It is. Do you have any thoughts on the reffing?

Hanif: It’s been bad.

Jessica: That's been such a narrative.

Hanif: Part of it I think is like my pro-worker instincts. [Jessica laughs] I'm a very referee sympathetic person because–

Jessica: It's a really hard job! Yeah.

Hanif: It’s a shit job. You're going to be wrong half the time. It's based off of just like, you know, seeing and guessing, essentially.. 

Jessica: And basketball, they're so close to the fans. 

Hanif: Yeah. The refereeing has been bad. Well, actually, that's not true, because someone actually was gracious enough to do stats on that. I was gonna say, I don't know if it's been uniquely bad, but someone did some stats showing how much more frequently fouls were called. So I guess it has been uniquely bad. [laughs] 

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. There was a good ESPN Daily episode about that last week with the guy at ESPN who is an expert on refs.

Hanif: So, I suppose statistically it has been uniquely bad, but I think what I'm also kinda more troubled by is…And this has come up I think in the Memphis-Golden State series, but it also happened in the Toronto-Philly series, where I just kind of hate that whenever a player gets injured, we do this weird litigation of blame seeking. And I just don't believe that every player is on the floor intentionally looking to hurt another player. Like, I remember when Scottie Barnes got hurt in Toronto, people were like, “I think Embiid meant to do that.”

Jessica: Yeah. Well, there's something right around Ja right now with his knee, and like whether or not that was–

Hanif: Yeah, if Jordan Poole was like twisting his knee.

Jessica: [laughs] Probably not. It just happened. It's basketball. 

Hanif: It just happens. And I feel like there's been an uptake of that in the playoffs. I mean, of course there has, because the stakes are higher and people be on the floors. I mean, as we're seeing with the Sixers, for example, like, Joel Embiid for example being on the floor is vital to that team's ability to win games. It's like, I get it, but it does…You know, I went from really being excited about Memphis-Golden State to now kind of being like, I just want this thing to end. I just want this thing to end.

Jessica: [laughs]Well, I mean, if Ja’s hurt, then it probably won't be too long.

Hanif: It won’t be much longer. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. I am going to ask you to make a prediction about maybe who's going to make it to the final. And if you're willing to say, who you think might take it, the championship this year.

Hanif: Yeah. Okay. So, this is tough because I think the winner of Bucks-Celtics is winning the east, but I don't know. I think Giannis is so singularly good at just like really willing a team to victory. There aren't many players in any sport who I think can single-handedly will their team to victory, and he just does it again and again. Bucks also play 48 full minutes, and I think a lot of teams just don't really do that. We see it time and time again, where a team thinks they have them beat in the fourth quarter, and the minute that team begins to coast a little bit, the Bucks are still there. I'm going to say the Bucks for now, just because I just think they're the champs and you gotta beat the champs. I am going to, out of the west, as much as I want to say Chris Paul gets to the finals, I'm going to say the Warriors. 

Jessica: I feel like it's the Warriors too! I was like, he’s going to say the Warriors. [laughs]

Hanif: The only team that could beat them is them, it seems like. You know, that game they lost to the Grizzlies was a close game, and they shot like a nightmare percentage from three.

Jessica: Terrible. Yeah.

Hanif: The play was just disastrous. And that game was within…You know, they were still in it.

Jessica: Yeah. Didn't they lose by like five? I mean, they played terribly and barely lost. Yeah.

Hanif: Yeah. That is when I was kinda like, I think the Warriors might. Because you just can't bank on them playing that poorly seven games in a row. Whereas Phoenix, you know, will Jae Crowder have a game where he hits 10 threes? Or will Jae Crowder have a game where he misses everything, you know? It's kinda like, Deandre Ayton is great, but will they work him into the game plan enough? These kinds of things happen with Phoenix. Chris Paul has been like embarrassing the past couple of games. I don't think that will hold up. That probably won't hold up. I think Chris Paul is good and he will figure it out. But it's a little scary to see him having games like that in the playoffs after how he performed in the first series in the beginning of this series. And so I just want to believe in the Suns, especially because I really like Devin Booker a lot. I've always liked Devin Booker so much. But I think I believe in Golden State more, particularly if Draymond is healthy and on point, as he has been. Golden state is so fascinating because they have a team of the present and a team of a future kind of on the same team, with Poole and Kuminga and…Who knows if James Wiseman will be fine? I hope so. I get concerned when, you know, young, big men have like lower body injuries that linger.

Jessica: Yeah. Yes.

Hanif: But I'm really hoping to James Wiseman, you know, can contribute. But the Warriors, I think it’ll be Warriors-Bucks. If that comes down to it, I think it would depend on if Khris Middleton is back, which I think he would be by that point, by that point he would be. In that case, I would say Bucks in seven. 

Jessica: Alright. Okay. I won't hold you to it. [laughs] After making you do that, I won’t hold you to it.

Hanif: If the Bucks lose tonight, I might sway to the Celtics, so… [laughs]

Jessica: Okay. That's fair. There was news today that I wanted to ask you about, which is all the reports that Nikola Jokić is going to be the MVP again this year, finishing ahead of Joel Embiid. What's your reaction to that? 

Hanif: So, I'm not big on individual awards, mostly because I think they're just so greatly flawed – this across spectrums. I'm not big on individual awards even in my own profession and field, even when I am nominated for them, I'm notoriously not that interested in them, though I'm sure my agent would like me to be more so. [laughter] And so I'm just not that invested. But I was hoping for Joel Embiid this year, in part because…It seems so long ago because the seasons are long, but…And I will agree with anyone who says that the Sixers had a better supporting cast around Embiid. You know, the Nuggets’ supporting cast is, like, not ideal. But it's not like the Sixers were rolling out, you know, before they got Harden, it's not like they're rolling out all stars. There were points early in the season where Embiid was having to put up like 40 and 15 just to get past the Orlando Magic, you know? I remember watching those games, and I think I just liked him a lot. I like both players a whole lot. But Embiid was really just…The work he put in this season, and the way that he really dragged that team through – and dragged, I think, a city that was for better or worse really in a place of pain and frustration. And I think he really kept that city afloat, you know?

And I know that MVP awards don't necessarily always go into the emotional aspect of what a player has done for a place. But I really…You know, Philly was in a tough place to start the season. And I really loved watching him operate. And I don't know. I worry most about Miami now because, you know, Joel Embiid doesn't seem to be like someone who needs extra motivation other than just wanting to win. But he also seems the kind of player who will take extra motivation when he can get it, you know? [Jessica laughs] So I'm a little bit worried about how this is going to impact that Miami series, because they might be in trouble. I figured Jokić will win it, but I also just kind of…I really like Embiid, and I also don't know if he'll have a year like this again. And, you know, he just works so hard, he plays so hard, and I always worry about the toll these kinds of seasons take on a player. I hope he can have a kind of season like this again, but it can be tough.

Jessica: So, I did solicit some questions from Twitter, which can be dangerous, but these actually turned out to be great. [Hanif laughs] So, let's run them down. And we'll start with what I would guess is the toughest one, but it's something you and I have talked about before, because of Loving Sports, which you were very nice to do a conversation with Kavitha and I. And so…This is always the silliest part. Someone with the handle @tacos4brenda, which…I hope that Brenda gets her tacos. She asks, “How do we reconcile the very toxic work environments, i.e. the Mavs’ sexist corporate culture, with our love for the game? This is a feminist issue, but also a labor issue.”

Hanif: Oh yeah, this is absolutely a labor issue. I mean, all of the math that I do as a sports fan – or as a consumer of anything, but since we're talking about sports, let’s hone in on sports – is making these considerations. Like, the reason, I stopped being an NFL fan, for example, actually happened before the Kaepernick protests. I think the season before. It was a health issue for me, you know? I was watching a game where like a clearly concussed player…I think it actually was Cam Newton. It was the first game of the season.

Jessica: Yeah. He would have so many…Yeah.

Hanif: He was very concussed, and he was like still playing and getting hit. And it was this visceral thing where I was like, I just can't do it anymore. I don't think I can do this anymore.

Jessica: Yeah. It makes you feel sick. 

Hanif: And so, some of this rubs up against that for me too, where because I am someone who is always thinking about workers and worker safety and care for workers, my concern is sometimes skewed less towards the product on the floor, on the field, or what have you, and more towards how that product is being produced and who is producing it and the health of that. And so for me, it's a tough reconciliation. And sometimes I find myself departing from the intensity that I once had as a sports fan because of these conflicts. I'm still a very intense sports fan, though not the sports fan I was maybe 10 years ago, even five years ago, because on every level, on most every level, folks who are working for or working with the public or the team are disrespected. Like, even players, you know? I went to like four or five games this year and sat close enough to the action to hear the way players are treated while they're on the floor. And that pales in comparison to some of these…Well, not pales, but it is a different comparison to some of these things that are happening in front offices – sexual harassment and assault and different violences in that way. But it makes me realize that in every kind of sector of this mode of entertainment there's some abusive behavior taking place. And it does get challenging to reconcile. 

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. There's been all this stuff around coaches being abusive. We were just talking about that this morning on Burn It All Down.

Hanif: Yeah. The Cynthia Cooper thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. That report was jarring to read. I don't know. I'll let you go into it, but it was jarring.

Jessica: Yeah. But just all the different…Yeah. You get in it all, and it's like, something will inevitably test your fandom. So, Alyssa is a Philly fan through and through, and asks, which cities should the WNBA expand to, besides Philadelphia? Because she's taken for granted that they would obviously have to go there. 

Hanif: [laughs] Bring the Rockers back! I mean, you know, like for me, the Cleveland Rockers were cool. It'll never happen again, I don't think. And I feel like…But when the Rockers folded, I just think that they were a little bit ahead of their time. Like, if the Rockers were to come back now, I think the response would be really generous. But if we're talking like a new city – and I'm going to exclude Columbus, because I actually do think that a W team would do really well here, like, anywhere in Ohio I think a W team would really thrive. And I think in Columbus there was brief talk about Columbus being like an NBA expansion team, but it wouldn't work. The Cavs are just too entrenched. But you could drop a WNBA team here and it would be really enthusiastically received, I believe. But if I'm removing Columbus, I would like…For some reason Pittsburgh comes to mind. You know, all these cities I'm thinking about are cities that are drivable for me, [Jessica laughs] because right now the closest team to me is Indiana.

Jessica: How far is that? 

Hanif: It's like two and a half hours. 

Jessica: That’s like me with the Dallas Wings when San Antonio went to Vegas. It’s like, well, now I gotta go two and a half hours. And they’ll still black those games out! I'm like, that's now…

Hanif: That’s not how it works. 

Jessica: That’s not fair! [laughs]

Hanif: And the Fever, with all love, you know, they haven't been great.

Jessica: No. It’s a rough go over there. 

Hanif: It’s just not fun to watch this. So, you know, I think Pittsburgh comes to mind. I am really all about Kentucky getting more of a professional sports presence. I know they got the NWSL team there now.

Jessica: And Louisville would be interesting, because they have such a powerhouse women's college team.

Hanif: They do. So I'm also talking about places that have like really powerhouse women's college teams. And like, I feel like Louisville would be a great spot for a W team. 

Jessica: I like that.

Hanif: Unless I'm not thinking of one. Florida’s so big, and I feel like I could be skipping a city, but they don't have a WNBA team, right?

Jessica: No. 

Hanif: That's surprising to me. Orlando is probably off the table. Miami feels possible, maybe? Now I'm doing this…I feel bad because now I'm rambling and I'm doing this thought experiment of this mass expansion. [laughter] 

Jessica: Well they need it! [laughs] 

Hanif: They do. Yeah. I mean, I think they need it.

Jessica: It’s like the tragedy of the league right now, is all the players not playing because it's too good.

Hanif: It's too good. For me, my heart says bring the Rockers back, or drop a team in Columbus. Just more teams in driving distance for those of us in the midwest who, you know, truly with all love to the Fever, you can only see so many Fever games. [laughs] And so, you know, I would love to see a team in Kentucky, a team in Pittsburgh, that kind of thing, you know? Also, more and more Southern teams too. A team in South Carolina or even Alabama, you know? More professional sports teams in the south. Because I know that it's like SEC country and college football is king down there. But I also know there's a real appetite for…I mean, like, look at South Carolina, look at what Dawn Staley has done in South Carolina, right? Like, college football recruits are going to South Carolina and being like, I gotta meet Dawn Staley I gotta meet Coach Staley. You know what I mean? So I refuse to believe that there's not an actual hunger for a WNBA team in some of these southern states. It's just impossible.

Jessica: Yeah. It’s so interesting. Here in Austin, like, the MLS team was a big deal when they showed up.

Hanif: How’s Austin FC doing? How’s my guy Precourt? 

Jessica: [laughs] They’ve had a good first part of the season, which last year they were not good. 

Hanif: They were not good.

Jessica: So, they're doing better, but then they played the Galaxy last night and that was…It was difficult. And it was a big deal when they showed up, because we didn't have a professional sports team. Like, there was a real vacuum in that way. So you think of, in the south, there's probably plenty of spaces like this, where people are just like, they'll get on board because they just don't have anything like it. So, my friend Snipey wants to know, as a sneakerhead, he stores and uses his kicks without…How, how do you store and use your kicks without turning into one of those people that just has endless glass boxes and never the joy of wearing?

Hanif: Oh, yeah, I don't do the glass box thing. But I am a bit…Okay, so this is funny. I think there are definitely people who follow me on Instagram for very specific things, but there are a lot of intersections between those specific things. But there are definitely people who only follow me for like my…

Jessica: Sneakers content?

Hanif: Yeah. Like, because I don't really share a ton of sneaker stuff, but every month or so I'll be in my sneaker room messing around and I'll share some videos. And the other day someone asked me about my sneaker room. I have a sneaker room that was in office. I moved into this house at the end of the pandemic and it's like an old house. It was built in like the late 1800s, and it just has all these excess rooms and closets like a lot of those houses did back then. And whoever had this house before me converted the room off the bedroom into an office, and it had all these shelves kind of organically built in. And the minute I saw that I was like, this is gonna be my sneaker room. And then I had it kind of engineered to…The display of it, I had all these sneaker holders drilled into the walls. So it looks like they're floating on the walls. But I also have it like dust sealed, so that no dust can get in. 

Jessica: Whoa!

Hanif: And I have to do that ceiling like every couple months to make sure the dust kind of…And that room has a window, and I often have to draw the shades so that too much light does not get in and affects the sneakers themselves. But I'm also really good at keeping a rotation, a seasonal rotation.

Jessica: Do you wear them?

Hanif: Oh yeah. Any sneaker I have, I wear. I might go months without wearing it, but I wear everything, because of the rotation. And so for the spring, I'll have like 20 pairs in the rotation, 25. And over the course of three months, I'm going to get at least a couple of wears out of those pairs. Every one of them. The summer, I'm going to have 25 sneakers. The winter I'll probably have a little less in rotation because I don't go outside as much. But I wear everything. And if I don't, I give sneakers away. I mean, one really big fortune of mine is that my brother, whom I'm fairly close to, who lives in Indiana…Actually, you know, funny thing we're talking about basketball and coming into new levels of fandom. My niece, my niece Laila is like a literal basketball star, like one of the top players in her age group. You know, she's a freshman in high school now. And my brother and I, as we grew up playing sports, and like watching her grow into this role has been a real, fascinating bonding experience for us. But my brother is also into sneakers and he wears my size. And so I kind of pass off a lot of pairs to him.

Jessica: Oh, that’s nice.

Hanif: But yeah, I'm a big you gotta weigh your kicks, you know? Because it's a frivolous and stupid thing to own as many sneakers as I own and to pursue sneakers still, you know?Right now I think I am at 160 pairs, and that's like a stupid thing and it's a silly thing, right?And all of us have our silly things that we hoard and pursue and all that. But my thing is like, if I'm not getting any use out of a pair, I'm not going to just stash it. There's no need. You know, there are like high school basketball players I know and I work with in terms of like writing who wear my size and I'll kick them a pair every now and then. I really believe in not holding on to things that I'm not utilizing. So yeah, but I do keep the room dust sealed. I got it like highly organized, most days. Some days less organized than others. But I spend a lot of time in there. I actually have to go in there tonight because I got like four new pairs, and a funny thing about how rigidly organized my room is is that getting four new pairs will throw off the whole organization set. So I gotta like pull some pairs out and put some new pairs in.

Jessica: [laughs] There’s some work to do.

Hanif: I'm excited for it though.

Jessica: I love that about you. So, co-host of Burn It All Down, Shireen Ahmed, she wants first to wish your dog Wendy a happy birthday. 

Hanif: Yeah, Wendy’s birthday was yesterday, which is so fun! [laughs]

Jessica: And then she has asked, does Wendy have a favorite NBA team? And I know that Shireen is out there hoping you’re going to say the Raptors, but you do not need to say the Raptors.

Hanif: [laughs] It’s so funny. Well, yeah. So, Wendy turned six yesterday, and on Saturday I was at the Bay Area book festival, and I took a red eye home. You know, one, flying from California to Ohio and vice versa is awful now. There’s no more direct flights. But I was like, you know, I got on a red eye at like 10:00pm. And at the book festival I was talking to people and they're like, will you be staying around for the…And I'd always be like, no, no, no, I gotta go home because my dog's birthday is tomorrow. [Jessica laughs] And it's one of those things that I was just saying very organically and not realizing that it probably sounded ridiculous to these literary masters or whatever. But Wendy loves watching basketball. She gets very…I think it’s just simply–

Jessica: She watches TV! Our dog does not watch. He does not respond in any way to the television. But she watches!

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Hanif: Wendy is like a real TV watcher. And basketball, I think it's just something about the quick movement, you know? She’s not really that way with soccer. I think soccer is maybe not her kind of pace, but I think the quick movement. And with that in mind, I will say that maybe our favorite team is the Hornets, only because the pace at which they play, anytime…The Hornets were like a big League Pass team for me this year, because they’re a lot of fun. And the pace at which they play just really captivates her. Like, she would just lock in and just watch back and forth. Like, her eyes would just dart back and forth. She really liked the Hawks last year. I think it's all about pace. Any team that pushes the ball, like pushes tempo, she's really into, just because it's like quick movements. But she does watch TV. She's a massive TV watcher. She grumbles at the screen when the Timberwolves play sometimes. And I also join her in that, depending on the score.

Jessica: I love how legit that answer just was, Shireen's “what team does your dog root for.” [laughter] So, @Treble_Nikki with a good one: “Since he is both an NBA and music person, now that we've seen AI and Jadakiss and Ja Morant and Lil Baby do collabs, what's his player/rapper dream duo? Bonus points if he names a woman player/rapper duo.” 

Hanif: Oh, I could do it.

Jessica: Let’s do the bonus.

Hanif: Yeah. Well, because, one, I think Jalen Green and Megan thee Stallion. So, that’s on one end, right? Not just because of the Houston thing, but because I think there is a real…What I like about Meg is that she is just so audacious. It doesn't seem like anything is outside of her reach. And there are parts of Jalen Green's game that haven't come around yet, but what I like about them, those parts, is that he has that kind of audacity to dream himself bigger than he actually is. What I loved about Megan early on was that she was – and still now – but I think early on, she was so good at just absorbing the self mythologizing that she was doing. She was like making mythologies around, building out personalities and absorbing them and then building on top of them. And I think Jalen Green has a future in that. So that's one. But if I am thinking about the W, this is tricky because she's a rookie, but like Destanni Henderson comes to mind immediately. But I'm also just like such a big fan. But I'm gonna– 

Jessica: And she’s down the road in Indiana.

Hanif: She's down the road. I joked about like I can't see enough Fever games, but actually yesterday I got tickets to a Fever game, [laughter] only because I'm such a big fan of Destanni Henderson’s. But I'm going to table Destanni Henderson to say I'm going to go with a cliche thing and say Liz Cambage, because she embodies the kind of a spirit of a rapper in a lot of ways, I think. And I say that for better or for worse. But if I were to reach back into history a little bit, I would say Liz and Queen Latifah, but not Queen Latifah now. Queen Latifah like in the Black Reign era, early 90s Queen Latifah, because of their kind of twin levels of defiance, again, for better or worse. But that's a pairing that I think would be interesting, you know? And I also think that we're kind of at a point where this doesn't seem that out of reach for...You know what I mean? I think the WNBA has its flaws in terms of not marketing but like capacity to market and capability to market, you know? It's still like harder than I would like it to be to get a WNBA jersey. 

Jessica: I know. Oh my gosh.

Hanif: They sold out of the...There’s like a Connecticut Sun…Maybe I should go back and check today, but I was trying to get a Connecticut Sun jersey a couple weeks ago, and it was just hard. Like, one was sold out, the other one was from like two years ago, you know? It’s this kind of thing, which is only puzzling to me because there's a real hunger for that. It's not like people are like, I don't really want these jerseys. There's like a real…

Jessica: I know. It’ll never make sense to me.

Hanif: People are like eager to get their hands on these things. [laughs] It’s so puzzling. I can see if there was just like not a demand, but I think we're maybe past the point to…I don't know. Like, most of my homies watch the W and want merch, you know? I think the WNBA has like run into some walls with capacity to market and ability to market. But my hope is that we're going to start to evolve in ways that, you know…The NBA has gone through like 10 different lifetimes of marketing styles and approaches in just my adult life, right? 

Jessica: [laughs] Right, right. Yeah. 

Hanif: Someone on Twitter the other day posted…I remembered them so vividly, those WNBA commercials that had Kyla Pratt in them when she was like a kid, like the early WNBA commercials. And I was like, I love these. They were I think Nike commercials. It was like, I don't know…To be fair, I don't watch a ton of commercials these days. I was like, I don't know the last time I’ve seen a WNBA player in a shoe commercial. And not even with a signature shoe, like, a signature shoe’d be cool, but I don't even know the last time I've like seen one centered on a WNBA player where that player is not like secondary to other players, you know? So, I think there's some way to go. But I can do the rapper pairings all day, because you know, I was going to talk about Destanni Henderson's kind of just real fearlessness, I think, and determination. She's someone who I actually wasn't sure…Well, I was hopeful that she would make that roster, right? Because where she got picked and all, I was a little nervous. But I was also like, you know, again, with respect to the Indiana Fever – I don't want to like knock any Indiana Fever persons!

Jessica: It was a good place to go compared to other teams. Yeah.

Hanif: Yeah. It was like, it's a good place to land because they need the help. But there is a kind of fearlessness and determination to her play, especially early on this season. I know it's really early, but she just looks like she fits in. And I think about how many rappers I listen to now who, in this era where there's maybe less gatekeeping in the forum, or the gatekeeping is more flimsy than it was, who…That gatekeeping being more flimsy is a hugely for better or worse thing. [laughs] But in the moments of the better where you find people who are really stumbling their way into something that feels like they were already always built for. But I did just get tickets to a Fever game because I am just such a big, you know…So I will be, once again, I will be going to watch the Fever play.

Jessica: Well, maybe it'll surprise you this year. [laughs]

Hanif: I hope so. 

Jessica: Yeah. Of course, right? There's your optimism as a fan. There it is.

Hanif: There's an optimism, every year. Every year it's like an opportunity to…Every single year I believe the Timberwolves are gonna make the playoffs, even when nothing suggests to me that they will. 

Jessica: [laughs] I love that. You kind of have to, to be a fan. Yeah. Like, why else do this?

Hanif: Yeah. Why else? Why else do this? Why else subject ourselves to the disappointment that comes? The thing about it is, winning is fucking hard, and only one team is going to do it. Like, only one team is going to win a championship, and winning a championship is hard as hell. And so what are the fans of the other…If we're talking about like the NBA or whatever, what are the fans of the other 30 whatever teams going to do? Not only is winning a championship hard, but also going into every season there are probably only six teams that can realistically do it. And if I'm being honest with myself in saying the Timberwolves probably aren't going to win a championship, but – then what comes after the but? You know, with apologies to my therapist who wants me to stop saying “but” quite as much. [Jessica laughs] What happens after the but, you know? I can't be like Timberwolves aren't gonna win a championship but that means I don't care. People were so up in arms about the Timberwolves celebrating winning that play in game. And that was so strange to me, because I was like, have you ever rooted for a team that has been bad for a long time? 

Jessica: [laughs] Yeah. Let them love it. Yeah. Just let them love it. Yeah, yeah. 

Hanif: Because people were like, “They're acting like they won the championship.” It's like, motherfucker, this is our championship! This is it. [laughter] This team is not winning the NBA championship.

Jessica: Let us have this! Yeah. Oh, gosh. Oh man. So, speaking of jerseys that you can't get for the WNBA, I've talked about this on the show before, but my husband loves Allie Quigley and my dream was to get him a Quigley jersey and myself Vandersloot jersey and then that would be adorable. And I just can't do it. 

Hanif: Can’t do it.

Jessica: Even though they're the champions. But my Allie Quigley would be mad at me if I did not ask one final question of you: what music, Hanif, are you listening to these days? Or maybe what are you excited about that's coming down the pipe right now?

Hanif: So, right now…I used to be so good at, early on, doing this and not looking at my…I’m a very…People can't see this because we're on a podcast. I'm accessing my Spotify because I have a very rigorous process of new music listening, where I have a playlist called “2022 music” where I put all of the albums I'm interested in hearing as they come out, then the ones that I am excited about I move to a second playlist with that is just “2022 music ❤️”

Jessica: Oh, I love it. I love it.

Hanif: Which makes it easy for me to be like, these are the albums that I am most excited about. Right now, you know, I still can't get off of Syd’s album. Syd’s album came out maybe three weeks ago and I just think it's a masterpiece, a real beautiful record that I can't get off of. I'm still thinking about it. Leyla McCalla's album came out on Friday. It's called Breaking the Thermometer, and it's really nice. It's just a really enveloping album. We talked about Bloc Party a bit and how that new album has made me happy. It feels like a return to form for them. Speaking of returns to form, the new Belle and Sebastian record.

Jessica: Oh! I didn't know there was a new Belle and Sebastian record.

Hanif: I feel like most people didn’t, which I think is odd because it's like their first record in eight years or so. And usually when that happens, I feel like…

Jessica: Yeah, there's like noise. There's a whole…

Hanif: There's fanfare. And this one kind of like came in under the radar, but it is very good. Speaking about traveling to see things, to see the WNBA, another thing that I have to travel to do often is see live music, and Belle and Sebastian are playing in this kind of orbit of places around Ohio. And I'm like, I don’t want to drive to go see them, but maybe. There’s this punk band out of Texas called Fade 'Em All that came out with this album called Houston Riots. You know, lyrically at points, I cringe a bit, but it is a really good record. And I will slow down eventually. Sorry. I feel like I'm just naming a bunch of things. Kehlani's new album was really beautiful. I'm a big Kehlani fan though. And I realized that I was like waxing poetically and joyfully about the new Kehlani album, and I was like…I think I said something to a friend, like, “And I usually don't love Kehlani’s records like this.” And they're like, I don't know, you said this about the last record too, and the one before that. [Jessica laughs] So I guess I am a big Kehlani fan, but the new record is surprisingly delightful. My homie Defcee is a rapper outta Chicago. He released an album recently with a producer called boatHouse. The album is called For All Debts Public and Private. And I think it's one of the better rap albums of the year.

And lastly, I'll say, you know, Bonnie Raitt…Bonnie Raitt’s interesting to me, because I don't actually think…Let me think here. Let me be generous here. I don't know if I think Bonnie Raitt is like an album artist, you know? Like, a lot of Bonnie Raitt’s albums outside of Nick of Time maybe just don't really do it for me, but I return to Bonnie Raitt albums because she's just so technically brilliant as a song builder. Whereas like, even if the songs don't work for me, I'm kind of like still really swept away by them. And so the newest Bonnie Raitt album, I like. Oceanator! Oceanator. I saw Oceanator live, you know, I popped in on an Oceanator show when they played in Columbus a couple of weeks ago. I feel bad because it was on a Friday, and it was a Friday of the Game 6, I think, of the Timberwolves series. And so I came, I went for…Like, I stood in the back. I stood in the back by the door, and the minute they got done playing, I was like, I got to go home. [laughter] But that's how much I love their record. I love the album. It’s called Nothing’s Ever Fine. And it's just…I don't know. I adore it.

Jessica: Well, thank you so much, Hanif, for all of that, for all your time. You're so generous to talk to us so much about all of this, and it's just such a pleasure to share this time with you. 

Hanif: No doubt. Thank you for having me, and I love the show. And I got to give you some props, because you got me hip to…I saw you like tweeting about it perhaps, but the new season of American Prodigies, because I had only ever heard…One, I didn't know that American Prodigies is like an ongoing thing. I heard the Freddy Adu one back in whenever Grant did that. And I thought it was just like a one-off thing. And so when I saw you kind of sharing the newest one, I was really drawn to it and I listened to it on a drive. Recently I listened to I think the most up-to-date version on a drive, and it was really great. 

Jessica: Thank you so much. That means a lot. I really appreciate that. 

Hanif: No doubt. Thank you for having me. This was a real pleasure. It's always good to talk about sports. No one ever asked me to really, so.

Jessica: Oh, well, you can literally come on here anytime you want and talk about sports. [laughter] You are always welcome. 

Hanif: Very cool. Will do.

Jessica: That’s it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Listen, subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And, as always, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world. If you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. To all of our flamethrowers, burn on and not out.