Interview: Corey Erdman, Boxing Commentator, on Katie Taylor vs Amanda Serrano
In this episode, Shireen Ahmed interviews Corey Erdman, Boxing writer and commentator for DAZN, Boxing Scene and many other outlets. They discuss the historic fight between Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano at a sold out Madison Square Garden on April 30, which was the first time women fighters have headlined at the venue. Corey also talks about the storied history of the two boxers and how the culture of women's boxing is slowly improving.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers! Shireen here. I'm so excited…I’m always excited, but today I'm very excited. I have my good friend, boxing commentator and analyst Corey Erdman. He’s based in Toronto. He's a new dad of a beautiful puppy, which we will talk about. He's also a tofu connoisseur. Corey, hello!
Corey: Hi! That's right. Am I the first guest who ever chose tofu as their favorite food?
Shireen: Yeah, you are. And that's why I'm a little bit shook right now, but I love this for us, because we will talk about it. Are you a vegetarian?
Corey: I've been vegan for a long time. Like, close to 15 years or something like that now.
Shireen: Oh, wow. Why did I not know this? Does this have anything to do with that you like running?
Corey: Not really. I dunno. I like animals. I don't put it out there a ton, you know?
Shireen: Yeah.
Corey: It happened to come out. I know someone might joke like, oh, we found out that Corey's vegan within 15 seconds of meeting him, but it's just because you asked me what my favorite food is, and I find tofu to be delicious and very adaptable.
Shireen: Yeah. I agree with you. I was at this place called Fresh, I hadn't heard about it before, and I went and I loved it. We will go for lunch there. But we're not here to talk about food today, ironically, which is also one of my favorite things in the world. We're actually talking about what has been pegged women's biggest boxing night ever, the fight between Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. Corey, you're arguably the biggest expert in boxing that I know. And I'm so excited you're on the show today. You actually report on this with so much nuance. You bring in issues…And one thing particularly that I'll get into is your ability to weave in issues that are current and, you know, frame them around boxing and women's boxing in particular. So, can you tell me about these two boxers? Why is this fight, the first woman's fight at Madison Square Garden, such a big deal?
Corey: So, this was a fight between two of the three best women's boxers on the planet. And so it's special when you get two of the three best fighters, male or female, in the ring with one another. That's just not something that happens very often. And it also doesn't always happen that the fighters who are ranked that high happen to be in a weight neighborhood where they could reasonably fight one another. But that just so happened with Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. Basically, this is a battle between someone in Amanda Serrano who was part of an era of women's boxing when it was struggling to find any home on television whatsoever. Serrano has been a pro for many, many years, even though she's younger slightly than Katie Taylor, and fought through an era when women – and this era still persists on lower levels – but women, again, were struggling to find slots on TV, were not being paid very much money. There was a point in the last two years that Amanda Serrano considered retirement because she just wasn't making enough money for it to be feasible. You know, she had to hold a side job or had to fight in MMA to try and piece this together and make a living, despite being a historically great boxer.
Shireen: Wait, wait. She had to fight in the MMA? Which is really brutal, for lack of a better term, to keep up to pay to maintain her boxing career?
Corey: Yeah. Yeah. And that's something we've seen happen with other high level women's boxers as well. They've had to kind of moonlight in another sport in order to make it happen. I mean, Claressa Shields has also dabbled in MMA. Claressa’s situation was less out of necessity, but it wasn't like she didn't enjoy the money that she was getting from MMA. It's not like it hurt. Heather Hardy had to do the same thing. The reality is that a lot of the most mainstream, known, and marketable women in boxing have had to moonlight in MMA over the last couple of years. That is just a fact. So, we can get into the reasons why that is when it comes to what boxing has not been paying them. So, anyway, Serrano has basically battled through some really rough eras of women's boxing. Katie Taylor around that time was just an absolutely phenomenal, historically great amateur boxer who wound up winning an Olympic gold medal, won a world championship, and was a trailblazer and a very, very outspoken advocate for women's rights and for her fellow fighters while she was on the amateur circuit.
Katie was and is a national hero in Ireland, and was one of the most popular athletes in the country, even while still being an amateur fighter. And during her heyday as an amateur, there were some weird things that were happening within amateur boxing, particularly in 2010. AIBA, who's the governing body of amateur boxing, tried to make all women box in skirts. And Katie used her influence as the most popular and well-known amateur fighter of the day to say absolutely not, I'm not going to do that. And if you do that, I'm not going to participate. And quickly it went away.
Shireen: We definitely talked about that on the show, lack of accommodation of women's clothing. It's something I work on a lot. So, yeah, that was known to us, the skirt. And what year did AIBA rescind that skirt law? Like, what year did that come down?
Corey: Yeah, all of that happened around 2010. It had of came and went pretty quickly and was not made a mandate for very long. And if it was, it was only at a handful of tournaments, but not the higher profile ones, so to speak. And Katie Taylor certainly never wore a skirt. [Shireen laughs] And that was always one of the things that was interesting about Katie, is that she knew the influence that she had, and always chose to use it, like, went out of her way to use it – and still does. So, after 2016, both Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields turned professional. And that's kind of when things start to change a little bit with regards to the pro boxing establishment giving television slots to women's fighters. Katie and Claressa and other fighters like Mikaela Mayer, who fought in those two first Olympic games that allowed women to fight, they turn pro, they got contracts, and they started getting television time. And we started seeing women in main events, on notable television broadcasts, on Showtime, on DAZN, on ESPN. And they started making more money than women had before. Still not as much as men, but far more than women we're seeing in the past.
Shireen: But those particular events like on Showtime and HBO or whatever, they were pay-per-view events, correct?
Corey: So, some of them were. Some of them were just on regular ESPN. You know, Showtime is a subscription network, so there is kind of a firewall of sorts, you know, monetarily, in order to subscribe to Showtime and then watch them. Here in Canada, we can watch Showtime boxing on TSN. In the case of DAZN, it's an app that you have to pay for. It's a subscription service. That is just kind of the broadcast marketplace that's existed the in boxing for a long time. But that sort of sets the stage. So, these are two fighters that came up and existed in different eras, who were finally meeting one another at 135 pounds, and on the biggest stage in all of boxing.
Shireen: You were in attendance for this event.
Corey: I was.
Shireen: How many people were at MSG?
Corey: So, it was a complete sellout, just shy of about 20,000 people at Madison Square Garden. And I have been to a lot of boxing events, obviously, in a lot of different places, a lot of the very biggest boxing events of the last, you know, 10 to 15 years. And I've never been in a venue that was this loud. I've never experienced energy like that within a boxing venue before. And a lot of people have said that that is the loudest they have ever heard Madison Square Garden. And that's not just for boxing, but we're talking about sports. We're talking about concerts. It was an energy that everyone agreed was very special.
Shireen: I was just looking through one of the tweets on this in prep for this interview, and the MSG crowd was so loud that the ref couldn't even hear the bell.
Corey: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I was inches away from the ring, and I couldn't hear the bell. And also, in boxing, there's like a ten second indicator that's like a knock between two pieces of wood, and I couldn't hear those either. And I don't know that the fighters could. Like, the referee basically had to use hand signals to let them know that the round is over, because it was too loud in there. And it was that loud on the floor too. Like, the sound rises in the arena, but it felt like I was in like an envelope of sound throughout the entire night.
Shireen: I love all of that. So, okay. Where were all these fans previously? Or was it just that the event…Like, this is the thing that kills me. You’re touching on so much, and you know on Burn It All Down we talk a lot about, like, the broadcast, the gaps in broadcasting, and putting it on. The fans are there! Like, is this a situation where boxing promoters or boxing organizations are slow to understand the interest that is actually out there? Because you're talking about…And again, you're somebody who has been in the scene a long time. This was thrilling. Like, you still sound totally jazzed about this. What is wrong with everybody here? Like, why are these steps so hard to do?
Corey: You know, that's what's always puzzled me because, you know, let's just look at this from like a purely craven, capitalistic framework, right? [laughs]
Shireen: We love that on Burn It All Down. [laughs]
Corey: Oh yeah. Exactly. As you know, I do too. If I'm a boxing promoter and I look at this, why would I not just want to capitalize on that, right? Like, even if I don't believe in anything around it, even if I feel that women are inferior to men in the ring and all of this, how could I look at this and not capitalize? And why were people not trying to do that before? And, you know, I want to give credit to some people who were…There’s a promoter by the name of Lou DiBella who was on the forefront of always pushing women's boxing in America, basically losing money on fights so that women could have platforms. Like, he was just doing it in a purely altruistic way. But, in a general sense, they've just basically been ignored, and it's for all the reasons you can imagine. All of the decision-makers in boxing, from broadcasters to sanctioning bodies to commissions, they're all men. And so there's always been, again, this this idea that women are inferior to men, we don't want to put an inferior product on the air, so we're just not going to bother with it whatsoever. And that's basically been enough for people, you know? Oh, okay. I guess we're not going to see women's boxing.
And it is true, for reasons that are rooted to these systemic issues, that, you know, we know and might get into as well. There aren't as many women who box, but that's because, you know, women have been either prevented or otherwise dissuaded from boxing for many, many years. But at the top levels, as we've seen, when you put Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano in the ring together, it's spectacular. So, it's always puzzled me why someone wouldn't want to try to tap into that market, because when I was in the arena, you know, the voices sounded different too. And I think I wrote this in my article for Boxing Scene after the event as well, that, you know, you heard women's voices in that roar in an amount that you wouldn't have heard before. And if you're watching that fight and you hear that and you don't think that's a market that's deserving of your attention, like, even as a capitalist, what are you doing? [laughs] What are you doing?
Shireen: I got goosebumps when you talked about that roar, like, we'll put links to your Boxing Scene articles in the show notes so that people can check out your work as well. So, break it down for us. Like, I obviously don't follow other than what you report on, what I see, and the articles that you've flipped me. I don't follow boxing regularly. So, women's boxing, can you break it down for us? Do the rules of engagement within boxing for women differ than those of men?
Corey: Yes, they do. So, in a general sense, women and men do the same thing in the ring, but they are not permitted to fight the same length of a bout as a man. So, in a men's championship bout, let's say, it would be twelve 3 minute rounds, but women are typically only permitted to fight a championship bout of ten 2 minute rounds. And even on lower levels, women are only permitted to fight 2 minute rounds. And the reasons for that are quite frankly rooted in junk science. Okay, so, just to back up a little bit, just so people understand, boxing doesn't have one governing league, right? There's no “Major League Boxing” or something like that. Boxing is effectively governed…There are a series of events that are put on by promoters, that are sanctioned by commissions in America. It'll be US states, and in Canada it’ll be provinces. Internationally, sometimes they'll be national governing bodies. And then the championships that fighters fight for are governed by what we call sanctioning bodies. And there are four major sanctioning bodies that create the four world titles that people recognize as kind of being…They’re like the grand slams, let's say, of boxing. The ones that people care about.
Shireen: And these are the professional ones? Because AIBA governs the amateur boxing.
Corey: Correct. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, in professional boxing, this is the case. The most well-known sanctioning body is the World Boxing Council, the WBC. And they have been simultaneously the most supportive sanctioning body, oddly, of women, but also the one holding them back on this front. So, I want to say in 2014 they published a study that justified why they feel women should only fight 2 minute rounds. And it went into things like, you know, it invokes menstruation, it said that “science” has shown that women don't have the same endurance as men. But mainly it said that women are more susceptible to concussions than men, so they ought to fight less, or the rounds that they fight in should be shorter.
Now, of course, this wasn't a boxing-specific study. This was just a general study. And subsequent studies not commissioned by them have shown that when they've studied fighters that are male and female, that after the same number of rounds, there hasn't been a noticeable difference in their cognitive abilities after those number of rounds. But even if this were the case, like, let's say…I mean, we understand that less boxing is better for everyone, right? [laughs] I can say this. I work in boxing. It pays my mortgage. But less boxing is better for your brain. If you want a fully healthy brain, don't go get punched in the head. All right? There's Corey's words of wisdom for today, on top of “try tofu in your air fryer.” But we understand this to be the case. So, if that's the case, why wouldn't the same be true for men? Why shouldn't men also fight 2 minute rounds if it's safer? So anyway, that is basically why women fight shorter fights. It’s specifically because of this. And despite subsequent studies contradicting everything that was within those, they've just continued doubling down. And so we are where we are.
Shireen: So, here's the thing that talking about concussions or CTE or neurological illnesses that may come with repeated blows to the head. So, okay. I'm not going to lie, I have a lot of questions about how you season your tofu in the air fryer, but I'm going to try to focus right now. So, the CTE part, the concussion part. If boxing was that dangerous, why would people do it? Like, I struggle with this. I will be honest with you. It's one of the reasons I think I love sport and I want to support women's sports wholly, but like, there's a part of me that flinches every time they get hit in the head. So, Corey, this could be a personal question, but how do you reconcile that as someone who truly cares about people also? And you also happened to be an expert in boxing. Like, how does one reconcile that when they're watching? I mean, I watch rugby, I love it. You could argue the same. Women's hockey, I love. You can say the same. But with boxing, it just seems so much more of an affront. Do you know what I mean?
Corey: Yeah, no, no. It's very forward. Yeah. I mean the whole purpose of boxing is just to strike one another, primarily in the head, right? Yeah. So, I get it. And to your point, I have those same ethical discussions when it comes to watching football, let's say, right? But, as you said, like, the whole point of boxing is this. I guess I reconcile it because I do understand that it is the choice of the participants to do this, you know? They do have agency over it. And also, oftentimes the circumstances that lead people to box, they've battled through so much to just get to the point where they are allowed to box or able to box and make a living – and a profitable one – doing that, that I support them as people, and while also trying to care for them and their safety, you know? I want boxers to be able to enter a ring on their own consent, understanding the risks. And then I want the people around them who are in power to protect them as best they can.
So, if people are showing very obvious signs of CTE, I want them to be protected. Unfortunately, boxing doesn't have any kind of mechanism for taking care of fighters after their careers, which I think would make me feel a lot better if that were there. And it's something I'm, you know, I'm always talking about and always trying to fight for as best I can. But again, because there is no league, like, there's just no mechanism for this. There's no pension for fighters after. It would be a lot easier to reconcile if the setup were, okay, we all understand the risks and, you know, your brain is going to be scanned before and after every single fight, and when we determine or you determine it's no longer safe for you, you're going to be taken care of afterwards. That's how it should be. It's not. But I still envision a world where that can be the case. And I guess, maybe it's naive, but I guess that's how I go to sleep at night. [laughs] If that makes sense.
Shireen: I don't think it's naive. I think hoping, and you know, sort of advocating for long-term health of athletes, particularly women, it's not something that we feel is unattainable. I think it definitely is. And it's in the best interest of people in power to not offer that to athletes. Like, we talk about that, whether it’s NIL stuff, we talk about athletes who are in colleges and universities, and their supports. We talk about this. So, I hear what you’re saying. So, jumping back to this particular bout, how much did Taylor and Serrano, how much did they walk away with? Let's talk about prize money now.
Corey: Yeah, so, their official purse, to my knowledge, wasn't made a hundred percent public, but it's understood that they both made over a million dollars for this fight.
Shireen: Wow. Like, the winner and loser both?
Corey: Both. Yeah, yeah. So, in boxing, very, very rarely is there…Even though it's called prizefighting, your fee is paid basically by the time the bell rings. So, whatever your purse is, that is what you're going to get. There's very seldomly like a winner's bonus, the way we would see in UFC, let's say. So, yeah, whatever your contract says you're going to make, that is what you will make, win or lose.
Shireen: I love that they call it a purse. Like, I just love that. I think that's fabulous.
Corey: Yeah! That's right, it is fabulous.
Shireen: I don't know. Just a side note. And that's a technical term in boxing, a purse.
Corey: It is. Yeah.
Shireen: So, let's talk about the way that Taylor and Serrano fight. Is one more, like, I guess you could say more lyrical in their flow? Or is one more aggressive in their approach, or is one…Like, I don't know anything about boxing. I'm just pulling these out of my hijab, these terms, but I'm just wondering, in their styles of fighting, what are they like, and how do they match up, Corey?
Corey: Yeah. I mean, they blend so beautifully in the ring for me, because yeah, there is a difference in their approach. Amanda Serrano is extremely aggressive and an extremely hard puncher. She's constantly hunting for the knockout, and has knocked out an incredible amount of opponents. She's basically regarded as the best one or two punchers in all of women's boxing. So, that's kind of her game plan, is to sort of seek and destroy. Katie is a brilliant boxer who boxes really well moving backwards – Katie was also a very high level soccer player as well, had NCAA scholarship offers. So her main attribute is her footwork, and she has incredibly powerful legs that make everything happen for her in the ring, both offensively and defensively. But the cool thing about Katie Taylor is that when she gets hit, there's a switch that goes off, and she turns into a warrior, and sometimes do her detriment, as we saw in this fight. You know, the quiet Katie turns into something else once she starts getting hit and starts getting hurt. So, that mesh of styles created something really spectacular in this fight.
Shireen: So, what happened in terms of the actual bouts? What happened in the match? Who won the first bout? What happened? Lay this out for us.
Corey: Yeah, so, it was one of the very best fights of the year. It might turn out to be the fight of the year by the time everyone votes on these things at the end of the year. Basically, the fight is like a three-act structure in this fight. Katie comes out and, from my vantage point, wins the first three rounds, is boxing beautifully. And then in the fourth, and in particular the fifth, gets hurt really badly. Serrano finally hurts her. And Katie is obviously on wobbly legs. There's like a vacant look on her face, and you start to think this fight’s over, she’s going to get knocked out, and this is it. And somehow she manages to find a couple of things that are working. She finds that her jab still works. And even though her legs are really rubbery, they're still Katie Taylor's strong legs and they managed to hold her up, and they battled down the stretch. And there's a moment in the 10th round, in the final 10 seconds of the fight, where there's this really frenzied exchange in the center of the ring, and Katie gets hit and her knee dips down about six inches away from the mat. And if it had touched, it would have been scored a knockdown, and the result of this fight would have been different. She wouldn't have won.
And so that's how dramatic this fight was, that it was just like she was basically doing like a pistol squat to stay up on her feet, and manages to stay up. The final bell rings. The judges submit their scorecards, and Katie Taylor wins. Frankly, it was a fight that if it would've been scored for Amanda Serrano, it wouldn't have been a travesty. If it was a draw, that would have been fine. And if Katie won, as she did, I think that's totally fine as well. It's one of the few times that I've left a boxing arena, and everyone has been happy. Like, you don't often…There isn't just pure joy, at least universal joy, when leaving a boxing event. But there was this time. Even though, you know, the Puerto Rican fans would have loved to see Amanda Serrano win, they were happy. Even Amanda Serrano was happy after the fight, even though she lost. I think the moment and what it meant was bigger than what the result ultimately was.
Shireen: And so, are Serrano and Taylor, in their relationship, is there a camaraderie here? I'm just wondering what the culture is in women's boxing. Because, you know, Claressa Shields talks big. She talks bold. Like, are these two opponents like that? Or you said, you know, Serrano was happy after the fight. Like, are they friends? Are they foes? Are they frenemies? Gimme the chai here, Corey.
Corey: They would not say a single bad word about one another during the entire buildup of this fight, and afterwards, which I found really sweet, you know? They really understood that it took both of them to get to this moment. And, in women's boxing, as you said, there are fighters like Claressa Shields who can play the role of antagonist and hype things up in the way that we know pre-fight builds can be. But, by and large, I find that there is kind of like a mutual camaraderie amongst women's boxers, because only they understand the struggles that they have gone through and continue to go through. I often find that the buildups to women's fights are very, very respectful. And also, the community is also a lot smaller. So, some of these people are just close with one another and then wind up fighting their friends, right? That can happen. So, yeah, in this case, I don't know that they hang out outside of boxing. In fact, they probably don’t. But they definitely are very, very friendly.
And even in the seconds before the fight, when Serrano and Taylor came together for their final instructions, you know, they kind of do that final stare down before a fight happens. The camera just cuts to Amanda Serrano, and she's just saying, this is crazy, this is crazy! Look at this. And Katie kind of glances out to the audience, and sort of smiles before trying to snap back into her game face. So, yeah, up until they contractually had to start punching one another, they were still as friendly as possible.
Shireen: [laughs] Contractually punch each other! So, you're exuding joy about this, and I mean, I know you cover a lot of fights and stuff. So I do have a question about the gender makeup of boxing press. Is it all dudes, Corey?
Corey: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's all dudes. Yes, but by saying that, I don't want to erase the women who are doing fantastic work as well. But, by and large, they're not given very visible positions. For a long time, like in the boxing writers association of America, there were no women that were a part of that. I mean, there might be right now. I haven't checked the roster in a little while. But there just aren't that many. And for the reasons that you can imagine – the decision makers are men, I think there's a general sense that women don't know as much about boxing. And this is less so now, but a lot of the ways that we describe fighting are kind of rooted in gendered language as well. Like, a lot of the insults about fighters can be rooted in sexism or gendered slurs. And there's reasons why, if you're a woman, you probably don't want to be anywhere around this either, right? But if you do want to be, there are there the same barriers that you would imagine there are in all sports press. But yeah, it is mainly all dudes.
Shireen: Do you think that these type of fights and the growth of women's boxing will encourage women to get into this type of media sphere? Because when they're fighting, you can't be like, oh, she hits like a girl, because actually she is a girl.
Corey: Right? Exactly.
Shireen: Because this isn't just about boxing and who's in the ring. This is about who's coaching, who’s supporting, the way they’re looked at, the support for women in sports, in boxing, and yeah, who's in the press box. I mean, I'm just hopeful, because you're giving me hopeful vibes right now, and I'm excited about this.
Corey: Yeah, well, that's what I try to exude. I hope the answer to that is yes, because the more that the door opens and the more welcoming the boxing community and boxing gyms are for women, the more people who will take an interest in this sport and develop an expertise in this sport. And what might you do with that? Well, maybe you become a reporter. Maybe you become a commentator. I think it's necessary, not just because there should be equality, which can stand alone as a reason for this to be the case. But I think that women's voices should be reporting on women's boxing as well. There are a lot of people, I think still, but I think that some people kind of begrudgingly report on this, you know, or like kind of have disdain for what they're doing when they have to write about women's boxing. You know, they'll trip up with language here and there. It still kind of demeans women's boxing when they're reporting on it. And that wouldn't happen if you had women talking about women's fighting, you know?
Like, frankly, you know, I would've been happy to hand my spot to a woman to report on this, you know, if I had the opportunity to do that, because they should be able to do that, and there should be more women on commentary. We're seeing that a little more often. Crystina Poncher has been calling fights, big fights on Top Rank. Mikaela Mayer and Jessica McCaskill and Caley Reece have been getting commentary positions as well. So we're seeing them break in to the broadcast space as well. But yeah, women's voices are important, for the reasons that, you know, obviously listeners of your show understand. And particularly when it comes to reporting on women’s boxing.
Shireen: To be really honest with you, the names that you just mentioned, I'm writing down. I'm like, I need to follow them. Obviously, everybody I think needs to follow you, because like, I wouldn't know anything about this, Corey, if it wasn't for you. I really wouldn't.
Corey: [laughs] There are more important things to know about. I think that this is a really important sporting moment. I really do.
Shireen: No, it was! Like, I got so many people saying, do you know Corey? I was like, okay. I know Corey, everybody. Calm down. But also, yes, this is important, and I'm so grateful that you're here to talk to us about it. The only other person that I saw on mainstream talk about was Bryan Armen Graham, who I’ve worked with at the Guardian. So, Bryan had written about it, and with the same fervor that you did. So, before I go, because I do have one question. And because we're in a political climate and Roe v. Wade is all about this, could you spell out a little bit about a tweet you had that you said this isn't the first time that women's boxing had ventured into this conversation about, you know, bodily agency and reproductive justice. Could you just explain that? Because I really think everyone needs to hear it.
Corey: Yeah. So, I mean, it's particularly in the early days of women's boxing, like, throughout the years, there's been just continual junk science arguments or straw men that have been propped up as reasons why women either shouldn't be able to fight or can't fight in the same way as men. And in the early days, there was a point where women had to wear like aluminum breast protectors. There was the suggestion that if women box, that they wouldn't be able to reproduce. I think of the WBC study, it just sort of referenced menstruation as like a thing that can change women's bodies, but it didn't say why that would prevent them from fighting! So, just in general, boxing has definitely trafficked in telling women what their bodies can and can't do and what they should and should not do. It really hasn't waded into like reproductive rights so much, other than the way that I said, where this idea that if you fight, that you wouldn't be able to then have children, which is obviously not true. Many women's fighters have children after their careers, have children during their careers and then come back. Jennifer Han, who fought Katie Taylor, fought Katie Taylor nine months after giving birth! So, they’re fine.
Shireen: And there's an Indian boxer named Mary Kom who also did the same thing. Like, she was the boxer as well.
Corey: Yes! Yes.
Shireen: I know about women's boxing.
Corey: Yeah.
Shireen: From some degree, because of this South Asian woman athlete. You know, I just find this conversation really important and interesting.
Corey: Yeah. So, I mean, those are the ways in which it's to this day men making decisions about women's bodies, or the bodies of people with uteruses, is a thing that is happening to this day in boxing. It’s the reason why they don't fight 3 minute rounds. It's the reason why they don't fight 12 rounds. And, you know, they'll point to, well, I mean, in women's golf, the tees are at a different distance, or that the ball is a different size in women's basketball or whatever. I'm like, well, I mean, does that mean you want to continue to do the same thing? You want to hold them back in the same way? Or they’ll invoke tennis, for example, that matches are shorter. But they don't have to be, you know? I think as recently as, what, like 1994, there were still five set matches in women's tennis. They're not incapable of playing for five sets. [laughs] So, that's what I meant with that tweet, is that yeah, to this day, the decision makers are using either outdated or willfully ignorant ideas about what women's bodies can and can't do to hold them back in the sport.
Shireen: That's such an important and timely thing to talk about. And again, can you…Okay. First of all, what is the name of your puppy, and what kind of puppy do you have?
Corey: Oh, the name of my puppy – who's asleep right now. He didn’t even bark through our whole recording. I'm very, very proud of him. His name is Brownie, and he is a jet black little toy poodle.
Shireen: [laughs] Oh my goodness. I love all of that. Does he like tofu?
Corey: He doesn't like tofu. In our lovely vegan household, we have to feed him like raw chicken flesh. And he chews a lot of like tracheas and parts of animals. So, I've had to deal with that for the love of this little guy. [laughs]
Shireen: Okay. Wow. You called it chicken flesh. [laughs] God.
Corey: Whatever keeps him healthy! It's okay.
Shireen: Also, where can our listeners find your work? And again, I reemphasize, please follow Corey's work. He's dope. Where can we find you, Corey?
Corey: Sure. Well, you can find me on the air quite often. I call fights for DAZN, if you subscribe to DAZN. And many of our Canadian listeners probably do that, so they can follow footy or the NFL. I pop up on boxing broadcasts everywhere because I still freelance. So, I may be on ESPN, I may be on DAZN, I may be somewhere else. Writing-wise, you can find me every Monday morning, I publish a story for a site called Boxing Scene, which is kind of CBS and Paramount's boxing hub. So you can find me on there. And every once in a while, I pop up with some other projects. Like, if you have Crave in Canada, you can still watch Omega Man, the documentary that I made about Kenny Omega and LGBTQ rights in professional wrestling. So, you can find some new stuff every once in a while.
Shireen: Omega Man was excellent, and I need you to put it in the Canadian Sport Film Festival, because it was so good. So, thank you again. This was fantastic. And if our listeners want to get into watching women's boxing, Corey, last thing, where do they go? Like, where do we go if we want to kind of venture in and don't really know anything about anything? Where would we start?
Corey: Yeah. I mean, start by watching this fight, so you can see kind of what it can look like when everything is as it should be, when women get the platform and the venue and the money. This is what it looks like, right? So, go and watch Katie Taylor/Amanda Serrano. And then after that, I mean, you know, send me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. I'm not like divorced from the audience. But there some great resources out there that chronicle women's boxing specifically. There's a trilingual podcast by the name of 120 secondes, in French and English and Spanish, I believe, that just talks about women's boxing. So you can listen to that. That's made here in Canada as well. And there are many people out there doing great work, but I'm happy to help point people in the right direction. I like to think that, yeah, when major women’s…Not even just major women's boxing pops up, but just when women's issues pop up in boxing, that I report on them, but I shouldn't be the voice of this. And there are ones out there that you should be following that are not me.
Shireen: But I appreciate that your voice is being used for this. You’re welcome back on this show anytime.
Corey: Thank you for having me.
Shireen: That’s all for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And of course, thank you, thank you, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world to us. And if you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. We could not do this without you. Burn on, and not out.