Episode 249: Champs League Finals Argued in the Court of Luther
In this episode, Shireen Ahmed, Jessica Luther and Brenda Elsey convene in the Court of Luther to discuss the men's and women's Champs League Finals. But first, they discuss the importance of access to abortion. Then, the Court of Luther commences to determine who Judge Jessica Luther will root for in the Champs League Finals. In the men's final, which takes place May 28, Shireen argues on behalf of Liverpool FC and Brenda argues for Real Madrid. On the women's side, which takes place May 21, Shireen argues for Lyon and Brenda for Barcelona. Judge Luther then gives her final ruling.
Following this discussion, you'll hear a preview of two interviews this week: Shireen's interview with boxing commentator Corey Erdman about calling the recent historic fight between Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. And, Jessica talks with Hanif Abdurraqib, poet, essayist and cultural critic, about his love for basketball, where he'd like to see the W expand and the NBA playoffs.
Next, they burn the worst of sports this week on the Burn Pile. Then, they celebrate those making sports better including Torchbearers of the Week, the Australian women’s rugby team who won the final of the World Rugby Sevens series and Sam Kerr, the Australian footballer whose stunning goals helped Chelsea take the Women's Super League and award her the Golden Boot.
They wrap up the show with What's Good in their in their lives and What We're Watching in sports this week.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Links
CHIP IN TO SUPPORT ABORTION FUNDS: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/abortion-aoc-social-20220503/
‘I only see it getting worse’: Female athletes speak out on Roe v. Wade: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/05/03/sports-world-reacts-roe-wade-supreme-court-wnba
Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton, ex-NFL QB Sage Rosenfels express support for Roe v. Wade: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2022/05/05/roe-wade-male-athletes-react-leaked-supreme-court-draft-opinion/9658026002
Transcript
Shireen: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. I'm Shireen, and I'm joined by Brenda and Jessica. Today on the show, we will be talking about the Champions League of football. Yes, folks. It is that time. Brenda and I will go head to head and debate to convince Jessica Luther, superfan of Austin FC – even though it's an MLS team – absolutely that she should be fully, emotionally, psychologically invested in the Champions League.
But before we start, we need to talk about a pressing issue. The United States is on the verge of overturning Roe v. Wade. All I have to say about that is Jesus fucking Christ. This is alarming and enraging. Now, before I get into it, I do realize that I am situated in Canada, which is occupied territory of Indigenous and Native communities. Canada is not immune to horror. And what we've seen in the debate of this, we've seen white women be like, oh, it's not going to happen here! Let me remind everybody: until 2019, Indigenous women in this country were sterilized against their will. Black women continuously receive mistreatment when it comes to reproductive health. We did speak about all of this and more in episode 220, but we wanted to share some more information about it. I will say that athletes, coaches and sports personalities have been speaking up, and we are sharing some of their thoughts. I'll start with former Raptors assistant coach Brittni Donaldson, who said in a tweet, “Have any NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB/MLS teams acknowledged/made a statement/shown allyship re: the Supreme Court’s attack on reproductive rights? Seems awfully quiet…” Jessica?
Jessica: Yeah, it does feel…The silence is incredibly deafening in these moments. Hard week. I found out about the announcement because our co-host Amira called me, crying, and I was like, what is happening? And she said, are you on the internet? And I said, no. And she's like, you need to get on the internet. Took me like an hour for it to like sink in. There are athletes though that are speaking out, some not big name athletes that are doing amazing stuff in the face of this. And I want to specifically shout out Liv Paxton. She's a runner at Winthrop University in South Carolina, and I'm just going to quote her entire Instagram post: “This summer, I will be running for 24 hours straight with the goal of raising money for abortion rights groups in the south. With the leaked SCOTUS decision and impending overturn of Roe v. Wade, women and all those able to get pregnant will have their bodily autonomy stripped away. As a woman who's grown up in the conservative south, I have seen how strict abortion regulations based in misogyny, racism, and classism have affected those around me. I have the privilege of being able to travel wherever if I need an abortion, but that will not be the case for millions of people in this country. I have not ironed out all the details of my run, but please stay tuned and drop suggestions of abortion funds specifically targeted at helping abortion activism in the south. I thank you all for your support now and in the future.”
Since that post, she’s been joined by her friend, Erin Gallagher. They’re going to run this 24 hours together, and they decided that they're going to raise funds together, to be split between two organizations: AARC Southeast, which provides funding and logistical support to ensure southerners receive safe and compassionate reproductive care, including abortion services, in Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. And also they'll raise funds for the Palmetto State Abortion Fund in South Carolina. This is an incredible, incredible thing that these two young women are doing, in a place that will absolutely need all the help they can get once this officially happens in a couple of months. So, thank you, Liv Paxton and Erin Gallagher, for doing this work.
Shireen: Brenda, what are your thoughts on this?
Brenda: Well, so, I looked around for an athlete opinion that really encapsulated what I wanted to say, and I couldn't find it. So, I'll just quote myself. I mean, I've been running long enough, you know, [laughs] maybe it counts. Not an athlete by profession, certainly, but in spirit. I had an abortion and I'm a mother. Having an abortion, which is mostly a medical procedure needed by women who already have children, enabled me to raise my daughters. I obviously am so angry and upset. But, thinking cap on, Democrats are terrible strategists. They have been performative on this issue. They have not been smart. They have just kicked the can down the line. No one has really taken the principled stance, when you look at the top of the Democratic Party hierarchy, that you want.
Jessica: They won't say abortion, most of the time.
Brenda: There's all kinds of ways. I mean, they'll support candidates that are sort of wishy washy on it.
Jessica: Literally, Nancy Pelosi was just in Texas campaigning for someone who was an anti-abortion Democrat, like, last week!
Brenda: Yeah. Who needs to be primaried out.
Jessica: Last week!
Brenda: Absolutely. A hundred percent. And the feminist movement just needs to confront this and stop waiting for a fascist court with strong sexual assault representation to support them. I mean, it's stupid. It's stupid to waste our time relying on the Democrats, to waste our time…I mean, by Democrats, I’m really specifically targeting the people at the top like Nancy Pelosi. You know, work on your reps to end the filibuster, to pass congressional security for access to abortion. Stop wasting our time debating and clickbaiting over this stupid fucking Supreme Court that was populated by Justices appointed by presidents who are also sexual assaulters and/or lost the popular vote. So, I don't know how many people's heads have been up their asses, but I'm not interested in debating how this Supreme Court is going to protect democracy, because it's fucking not. Because it wasn't instituted democratically, because it's there to support slavery. And yeah, sure, Sonia Sotomayor is wonderful. That's one person. We know that there's wonderful people in shitty institutions, but this isn't where we need to be looking. So put your feet on the streets. Look at who actually represents you. Go to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez’s website – she has a place where you can support local providers. And, you know, stop whining at me about how this fascist institution should be protecting your rights. It's made to take them away.
Shireen: So, here at Burn It All Down, we are in solidarity with and we'll fight for and will advocate for reproductive justice. And if you have any other information that you feel we need to amplify, please feel free to send it to us. We will. Whether it's campaigns from athletes running at local, statewide or national levels, please do let us know. We would be more than happy to share this information.
Shireen: Welcome to the Court of Luther. [gavel bangs] [calm classical music plays]
Jessica: Welcome. On today's docket: who should I root for in the Champs League finals? On one side, we have Brenda Elsey, defender of Real Madrid and Barcelona. And then the other, Shireen Ahmed, defender of Liverpool FC and Lyon. We will have opening statements from both sides before we move to first discussing the men's final and then the women’s. At the end of each proceeding, I will rule on which team I will be rooting for. High stakes, people! Let's begin. Opening statement. Ms. Ahmed, the floor is yours.
Shireen: Thank you, Ms. Luther, I'm just going to start. I've resisted saying that this entire debate is Islamophobic. Okay? Because seriously, the Champs League encompasses and embraces everything. I could also argue that it's racist, but I won't do that. And for the sake of fun, and this court, respecting it, I will say this: the Champs League is the best of the best. It includes many different leagues within Europe, including Ukraine before it was illegally invaded, but also Turkey. Did we forget Galatasaray in 2019-2020? it was a blast. And while the top players in the world, yes, could be argued are showcased in England, there are so many from Ligue 1 or Serie A, and I think this is really important. Plus, the top players in Africa actually compete in the Champs League. And for me, it is my preferred tournament, AFCON. So, I love to see different teams battling out in their different…Honestly, their cultural and regional implications of soccer where they are.
So, I do understand that a mélange, a smorgasbord – this is what the Champs League is. It is a smorgasbord, and I get points just for that word. I must. Seriously! Smorgasbord? I know Brenda’s going to bring the fire, but all this is to say that with so much respect and love for the MLS – we talked about this recently – the MLS is where the Champs League players go to retire. We actually have that historically listed on our show. So, like, all these incredible players, Thierry Henry, Becks, they all played in the Champs League. So, I love football for you. Ms. Luther, I want you to love football, but I also want the best for you because you are the best. Love yourself enough, Jessica Luther, to give in to the Champs League.
Jessica: Thank you, Ms. Ahmed. Dr. Elsey?
Brenda: This is a part of the debate that we agree. [Shireen laughs] I think that you deserve the Champions League. You've really supported grassroots football. You've really dug in. You have not demanded the best in the world's talent for your football love, at all. Not even close. And you're still a wonderful, loyal fan. So I feel like you've done the work and now it's time for you to just like eat the dessert. That's going to be, you know, watching the best in the world. And look, I hate that the best players in South America have to go to Europe to have this kind of stage. I hate it. But the ship’s sailed. It's too late. They're there, that's where they're going to bank. And it's not for any other reason than they want the highest competition and that they've been born in this time and place where that's where they have to go. So, I hate that so much talent leaves the Global South for Europe, but also it's cool as hell to beat the empire at its own game, literally on its own soil. It is such good football, even if it's reffed too closely. I mean, in this part of the debate, Shireen and I are a hundred percent in agreement. In the semifinals for example, you know, half of the saves were made by Brazil, half of the goals were made by Brazil. You want to see the best football in the world? Unfortunately, it's just gotta be Europe. And, I don't know, there’s nothing else but to love it.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. So, you've convinced me that I should be paying attention to these Champions League finals. So, we will start our debate with the men's final. It will take place in France on Saturday, May 28th at 3:00pm Eastern. Brenda is on the side of Real Madrid, Shireen, Liverpool FC. You will each have a chance to give me three reasons I should cheer for your side in the final, and then I will rule. Dr. Elsey, you are up first with Real Madrid.
Brenda: I cannot believe that I'm doing this. I mean, I have hated Real Madrid my whole life. So this is an exercise in learning how to change and be open, whatever your journey is. [laughs] This is what's happening to me. Once upon a time, Real Madrid was Franco’s team, Francisco Franco. It was identified as a fascist team. But that's not this club. So my point number one is you, Judge Jessica, you do criticize private ownership. And Real Madrid is one of the four teams – along with my future argument, pro-Barcelona Femení – that is not owned by a single person or entity or a corporation, but its supporters is the ownership. The supporters, the members, the socios who elect the club president, who elect the hierarchy of Real Madrid. So, my first argument is: we love this structure, we want to support this structure. Looking at it from an MLS perspective, since you're a fan of MLS, you know what owners have done to different teams and the ways in which they've let down its fan base. Nobody determines how Real Madrid plays more than its fans. They literally have the final say.
Jessica: Ms. Ahmed? Liverpool FC.
Shireen: I will also add the, you know, preamble that I am a long suffering Arsenal supporter, so this entire exercise is really a test of my mental strength. I never thought that I would be cheering for Liverpool FC. But for the greater good, Ms. Luther, for the greater good of football and its majesty and its purity, let's dig in. First of all, Fenway Sports Group owns Liverpool FC. LeBron James. If you don't love LeBron James, do even have a soul? Like, look at what this person has done. While I agree with the democratization of ownership and socialists models, I also believe in the wonder of Black ownership, which is so limited, and that we see that with Liverpool FC. Remember I talked about let's not be racist in this decision? Come on, LeBron! And undoubtedly, those doors will open and we'll see other, you know, racialized owners in football, in PL. So, LeBron James owns 2% of Liverpool FC, and you know what? That's 2% more why you should judge in my favor, Ms. Luther. Secondly, Sadio Mané. Do I need to say anything else? Sadio Mané. He's an AFCON champion, legend. One of the best fucking dudes in this game that is riddled with terrible, terrible men. So, yes, Mo Salah has single-handedly shaped a better culture in Liverpool, certainly. And I'm not saying that he's eradicated Islamophobia, because that isn't his job. But listen to this cheer! Ms. Luther, the cheers of the fans of Liverpool. It will make you stand up and applaud.
Jessica: Dr Elsey?
Brenda: Hm. You know, I mean, [laughs] I love Sadio Mané. It's hard sometimes, for these arguments, because I am not going to drag on Sadio Mané. I love him. I loved him, and continue to. The fact that like Mohamed Salah, you know, I don't need to see an exercise in anti-Islamophobia by going to Liverpool when you have Karim Benzema at my team, Real Madrid, who is Algerian, whose career has suffered from Islamophobia, who was literally dropped from the French team because of Islamophobia. So, much as I love Mohamed Salah, except that he looks like an overworked dad…I can't believe how young he is, given the way he looks. It's really sad. [Shireen laughs] Really. Like, Shireen is very young looking for her age. She will not understand this. This man looks like he's like 50. It's incredible to me he's like 29. Anyway, his life is stressful.
So, Real Madrid, the personnel that's going on there is incredible. Sergio Ramos has gone. Cristiano Ronaldo has gone. So, yay for trading him. And suddenly this isn't your grandpa's Real Madrid anymore. Who isn't happy to see Karim Benzema? As I said, left off the French team, probably because of racist bullshit. He's weird. He's got some like issues with maybe hiring escorts, so I'm just going to put that out there. I'm not gonna, like, just unilaterally say he's my favorite player, but I'm happy to see him get a shot in this later stage of his career. He seems like he's really changed, and he's accompanied by three of the most exciting young Afro-Brazilians in the world. They are just straight fire. Vinícius Júnior, Rodrygo, and Éder Militão. They are 21, 21 and 24 respectively. They are trying so hard to get a starting spot on Brazil, because Brazil could field in this World Cup at least two full teams of world-class talent. We have never seen this depth. And so every player right now – Gabriel Jesus, Ederson – they're all fighting. Neymar is not even a sure thing to start! So, you're going to see just straight fire. These three Brazilians, they've been through the ringer and they want it.
Jessica: Thank you, Dr. Elsey, Ms. Ahmed?
Shireen: Okay. I can't deny that Madrid is a solid team. I don’t. But if we're going to talk about rosters, Trent Alexander-Arnold. We’ve got Virgil van Dijk, who was voted FIFA’s best defender, okay? So we're an award-winning squad over here at Liverpool. Again, Mohamed Salah. I'm not only going to talk about them. Luis Díaz, also like the Afro-Brazilian superstardom. But are we forgetting about Colombia here? Like, all the Shakira blood in my body is getting upset right now. Honestly! Takumi Minamino, like, we've got representation from all over the world. It's incredible. And the fascist, racist-supporting goalkeeper notwithstanding. This is a very good team, is what I'm saying. Now, I mean, we forgot about Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. Like, we're talking about people who are super active within the English football community as well. And particularly in a time where England used to talk about like homegrown, home-developed lads, which is basically code for saying “we want white footballers.” This squad has single-handedly dismantled that ideology, at a club that is a storied old club.
Also, I will say this: You'll Never Walk Alone is the club's emotional and solid anthem. I don't even know if Madrid has an anthem. Do they even have music at Madrid FC? I don't even know. So, You'll Never Walk Alone is, yes, from the musical Carousel, that exact saying, “you’ll never walk alone.” But Anfield, the home of Liverpool, has the very cool tradition of fans singing circa when they, you know, established. And they had a DJ in the 1960s – does Real Madrid even have a DJ? So I did want to say quickly, it also recognizes the struggles of the storied club, including the devastating Hillsborough disaster in 1989, where 97 people actually died at Sheffield stadium. And I still think about Steven Gerrard, Stevie G crying about this every time he hears You'll Never Walk Alone, which is really beautiful. And it sends you shivers when you're in the stands. And I can't believe I'm saying this, but if I ever went to watch a Premier League game, I would actually want to go to Anfield.
Jessica: Okay. Final points, Dr. Elsey?
Brenda: It's really hard to argue with, you know, tragic things that have happened to clubs. Obviously, like, I'm really sorry about that. [laughs] You know, I don't want to laugh, but it's like, Shireen, come on. Like, that's in the past.
Shireen: You're a historian, Brenda! How can you say that? [laughter]
Brenda: Because I think, you know, I think like every club's had a tragedy that's a hundred years old, you know what I mean? Like, we can't really just focus on that, like I said, or we'd be a Man U kind of thing. So the best thing I can go to at this point is the coaching. And I really like Carlo Ancelotti. I just think he's like… Jürgen Klopp is a try-hard German who is constantly trying to get like more promotional deals off of the way that he looks. He’s super superficial. He’s like the millennial-est coach of football. and Carlo Ancelotti, he is like an all-timer, you know? He is a players’ coach. He literally has no strategy that doesn't depend on his personnel, which I love, you know? Jürgen’s out there writing these books, like, “You should do like the quick take back…” But you have to like immediately like get the ball back as soon as you lose the ball, which it seems like a kindergarten kind of strategy that you have wrote a whole book about? Please, give me a break, Jürgen.
Shireen: It’s called defense, Brenda!
Brenda: Do you need a book about that? Do you really need a book about getting possession back? Or do you just want to be Jürgen Klopp and get one more promotion. It's like really over the top. So, Carlo Ancelotti, he's like, classic…He really fights the Italian stereotype. He's very calm. He was the mentor of Pirlo – I know that's gonna move your heart, Judge Jessica. And he was hobbled by injuries, so he adjusts his style depending on the players, and players love him. And I feel like he's really like the avatar. If Jessica Luther was a coach, she would be Carlo Ancelotti. She would be like passionate fire on the inside, and just like containing it on the outside and player-focused. Like, he's got a flexible mind, he's ready to kind of like adapt his style according to players. I want this for him. I want him to be the most winningest coach. And hipster Klopp, you can go back to Brooklyn.
Jessica: Ms. Ahmed, your final point?
Shireen: Love me some Carlo Ancelotti. There's no question. You know, Italians have the best pasta, et cetera, et cetera. But now let's get down to it. Jürgen Klopp. Manager. Yeah. Nerdiest, coolest, most creative manager in the world. Not only does he support his players, he did support them fasting in Ramadan. So I will say that, he's very aware and attuned to the needs of his players. He routinely checks in with them about their feelings. He understands mental health, he plays table tennis with them. Now, although Klopp may not be like Jessica, he’s German. And Jessica has been to Germany, and she loved it. That's a great connection. He loves German beer, she loves German beer. What better connection would she want with a football manager? We've also never seen him in lederhosen, which I appreciate from the universe.
Also, he has terrible dancing moves that he's not afraid of. And you know what? I love that. When they beat Chelsea in February, I loved that he took that trophy and he danced his terrible dancing. He has a lot of fun. He enjoys...There’s passion from him, and honestly, Germans are not known for passion. They're known for technical expertise. They're known for sharp skill and mechanical precision. He has emotion, and I love this. This entire debate is having Jessica come a little bit out of her comfort zone, into the Champions League. That's what Jürgen Klopp is. It's incredible. Also, we're adding a tweet to the show notes of his terrible dancing, and believe me, it is terrible. It's like he only dances to 99 Luftballons in his head. That's all he does. And that's okay. I love that song! And we all should.
Jessica: [gavel bangs] Okay. Thank you, Dr. Elsey and Ms. Ahmed. Looking back over your points, I feel like your points on the players are pretty even here. I do think Shireen's appeal to my emotions was effective. Brenda did have a counter to that. I don't know. You both brought it with the coaches. That one's harder. But I am going to give this to Real Madrid, for Brenda's point about ownership.
Brenda: Woo hoo!
Jessica: So, that is the thing that tipped me over. So I will be rooting for Real Madrid in the men's Champs League final, though you did make it very hard, Shireen, with the Klopp argument. I'm just gonna listen to that over and over again. And now, onto the women's final. It will take place in Italy on Saturday, May 21st at 1:00pm eastern. Shireen will be arguing for Lyon, Brenda for Barcelona. You will each have a chance to give me three reasons that I should cheer for your side in the final, and then again I will rule. This time, we will start with Ms. Ahmed for Lyon.
Shireen: But do I need to say anything? This is Lyon. Olympique Lyonnais. This is the winningest women's club in the entire world. It is a club that had given status and given respect to their players from the get go. Yes, it's elitist and snobby, but you know what? Women's sports also need that elitism. Christiane Endler and Sarah Bouhaddi are stalwarts. And that's just even in the box! We’re not even talking about the front players yet. Christiane Endler! I don't even know what to say. I'm beside myself with emotion at the moment. Sarah Bouhaddi. Like, Wendie Renard, probably the most prolific defender in the women's game. I feel like Gerard Piqué used to take notes watching her. Okay? Like, absolutely incredible player. And beside her is Canada's Kadeisha Buchanan, one of the best defenders in the world. In 2015, she was awarded FIFA’s player of the tournament. Amandine Henry. You've got Dzsenifer Marozsán, Daniëlle van de Donk, and Cascarino. It's like, the scouts are out here. Just saying. [French accent] “Who is the best in the world? Allez-y, allons-y. Let's go get zem and bring zem to our club!” I know I sound like the chandelier from Beauty and the Beast right now. The candelabra. Bad French impression. But still, they're unstoppable. This is Lyon! So, all this to say, macarons are superior to Spanish dessert. I don't even know what dessert they have in Barcelona. Like, I don't even know. Jessica, we're going to talk about emotion, because that killed me last time. Are you forgetting the way we roamed through the streets of Paris eating during the 2019 World Cup? Are you going to dishonor that memory?
Jessica: Dr. Elsey.
Brenda: That seems like…It’s like, I object to personal memories. [laughter] Like, objection!Shireen, who can resist you when you're trying to be nostalgic? Listen, I mean, this is a David and Goliath situation. As Shireen said, Lyon is great. And that's why we need fresh talent. And, okay, these aren’t...They’re still veterans on these teams, but like, Barcelona is trying to really build something. So, I love Dutch football, and the best Dutch footballer right now is Lieke Martens, and she is on Barcelona. She is so smart. She is so fast. She is so elegant as a player that it betrays how strong on the ball she really is. She is a show-stopper, and she has been injured and it's sad and I want her back on top. She's been a strong advocate for equal pay. So, if I need to sway you politically, it's there. She's joined by Jenni Hermoso who's been, again, a feminist stalwart in global football.
And I mean, last but certainly not least, Asisat Oshoala, the Nigerian striker who's also recently rehabbed. Four time African woman footballer of the year! She has been so outspoken about how much more we need to do with women's football in Africa. And I know this hurts, Shireen, because she took the L to not get to advocate for Oshoala. I know we don't want to say that women footballers are inspirations, but she is. There’s just no getting around it. She is there and talks about growing up in a polygamous household, growing up in a place where she was so poor that she didn't have money for food. She is just such a warrior and such a beautiful player that I just want her to win. I want everyone to want her to win. And secretly, underneath, Shireen does too. So, I think we can all get behind Barcelona here.
Jessica: Ms. Ahmed?
Shireen: I will say this: Ada Hegerberg. Ada! [Brenda laughs] Like, seriously. She’s not on the roster this year and I know we're specifically talking about this final, but this entire movement and this collaborative effort of this team today is to get you to understand the importance of Lyon as well. And Ada Hegerberg is injured, which is unfortunately why she's not on the roster to play in the final, but there was no better advocate for equity in football than Ada Hegerberg, and she plays with Lyon. She left her national team. The principle that this woman espouses is outstanding. And if you truly love football and women's football and want it to succeed, you'll support Ada Hegerberg, who’s beloved by her teammates – and, frankly, everybody. Just to say this, I can't argue with a supporter-owned club. You know I love that, and I know that does appeal to you. But again, this is a team that has been supported with healthcare, they’ve been supported with pay. Otherwise, Ada wouldn't play there. Also, Lyon is privately owned, and I'm not going to make excuses for shitty front offices and their club management, but I honestly believe that the way that Lyon was ahead of themselves, some of the most storied players in women's football have played there. Pinoe played there, and a lot of people have, because they actually do pay their players living wages so that the players don't have to have other jobs or play in the offseason. So, Lyon is what we want women's clubs to be. And how can you not support that? Not just about the individual players, but the culture of women’s football.
Jessica: Dr. Elsey?
Brenda: Well, I know I'm probably not going to win this one because this helped me win the last one, and Judge Jessica is so fair-minded as to probably rule against this very cogent argument. And Shireen tried to head it off by saying like, oh no, like, employer-owned, socio-owned, you know, whatever. But you know, Shireen, I know, we are all happy that the British and the French football is not dominating solely this year. And that is because of ownership. And Barcelona is one of the four clubs in La Liga that, once again, is owned by the socios. Now, Shireen and I did a hot take where we talked about how terrible was Barcelona's management, [Shireen laughs] and how they've run it into the ground. But I still think, if you're trying to advocate for gender equity, if you're trying to advocate for, you know, anti-discriminatory policies, being supporter-owned, having those commissions, having a way, like, a vehicle to express your voice as a fan puts pressure on these ownerships. I don't like Olympique Lyonnais' owners. They also own the Reign. They haven't done shit for the Reign, despite having one of the best fan bases in the country for women's football. Lyon have not done anything to help its own club. You know, not to root against the players, because Shireen makes very persuasive arguments. Endler is my favorite goalkeeper in the world. She is Chilean, she is hugely important in South American feminist politics. But the ownership, you know, you can't save these teams from themselves, from their owners, I don't think.
Jessica: Ms. Ahmed, your final point?
Shireen: While I agree with everything Brenda says about ownership, I think we should also have a mindset of player-centered. It is possible to have terrible football culture in a place that is actually owned with public ownership, because we've seen that happen. It's not to say that if it's publicly owned it solves all the issues. So let's be a little pragmatic here. And when my Arsenal…I’m going to show you this, a photo of Ada Hegerberg winning the Ballon d’Or as she did, being championed by her teammates, all from Lyon. We see the greats there. We see people who love her. We see happy footballers. We see them happy for her because the culture of the Lyon is if one wins, all advance. And that is an important part.
Happy footballers! I mean, we need a little bit of happy football, Jessica! Ms Luther, you want happy football. Brenda and I stress about how wretched it is so often of the time, you know? And I will say this, that I am really happy to see Barcelona advancing the way it is. They've had incredible feats with selling out stadiums with record numbers in women's football history. But also, do we forget the novelty of selling out when Lyon has been doing that for a while? Well, they've done it once before. Brenda, she’s getting ready with her mic. So, while they can't compete with Camp Nou, there was a steady and storied development and an increasing of a loyal fan base. And are we going to forget that fan base, Jessica? Are we going to ignore them? The fans of Lyon that have been out there, supporting these happy footballers? Don't you love happy? Don't you love football?
Jessica: Thank you, Miss Ahmed. Dr. Elsey, your final point?
Brenda: Yeah, I want to support Lyonnais fans as well. I'm really sad that they just have run the Reign into a place where they don't support traditional women's football fans. So, I see this as a David and Goliath kind of story. I mean, Lyon has this…You’re right, Shireen. I mean, it has this amazing past. It has these superstars. You look and there's Hegerberg, and who doesn't love her? And I just think, you know, it's time to pass the torch. If they win, great, then they win. But I think that it's fun to root, you know, for Barcelona. And I think in part, it's like, it gives them kind of jockeying power during this moment of renegotiating contracts, especially after the 90,000 record attendance last year for the Spanish league. And I want to see them be able to translate that. Lieke Martens, who's one of the most marketable women's footballers – for all the wrong reasons, which she points out – you know, doesn't clear $200,000 a year. None of them do. They make what, you know, Barcelona's youth academy players get transferred for.
So, I really do want to want to see them win and get to sort of hold feet to the fire. Part of the frustration or amazement, if you love these women footballers at Barcelona, is their coach, which is a total afterthought. Like, their coach is like this 30 year old who has no idea what he was doing, who was just interim, that just got assigned. Like, he looks like he doesn't even know where he is. It's so disrespectful. I just feel like they've got this huge fan base. They've got everybody's attention. I feel like they're on the precipice of giving Lyon…Since Wolfsburg, we have not seen a women's rivalry that could really take off like that. So I just want to close. I don't wish anything bad for Lyon, but I want Barcelona to win. I just do. I just want this for women's football, and for Lieke, and for Oshoala. All respect to your team, Shireen. I still think it's time for them to take a back seat.
Shireen: I don't get a last point, but I'm just going to say this really quickly, because I’m adorable, doesn't that count? Brenda made a really good point about Barcelona and comparing to the men's side. Lyon was one of the only clubs where nobody really knows about the men's side as much as they do the women's. So, you hear Lyon, you think of Féminin.
Brenda: I feel like that's an unfair wrap up, Shireen. [Shireen laughs] I don't feel like you get that. I feel like that might be inadmissible.
[gavel bangs]
Jessica: I mainly just want to object to this entire exercise now that I have to make this decision. [laughter] This was wonderful. I loved everything about this. I find this really difficult! This one is really hard for me. Shireen's points about Lyon's importance in building the women's game and support when it wasn’t part of this massive international movement to do so is incredibly compelling to me. Wendie Renard is really all you have to say to me in order to get me. Tall women just do it for me. Brenda's also incredibly compelling with Barcelona being the future, and like what this win would mean for this team and for women's soccer as we move forward in this moment. But I have to decide. This is my job on this. Ahhh. I think this time around, I am going to root for Lyon.
Shireen: Yes!
Jessica: I hear all your points about those players, Brenda, and of course I want them all to win, but I do…Obviously I just have a personal regard for Wendie Renard. The points about Endler, but also the Ada stuff is very persuasive. So, I will be rooting for Lyon on Saturday, May 21st at 1:00pm eastern. Thank you both! I hope everyone tunes in. You all, let us know who you will be rooting for in both the men's and women's Champs League finals.
Shireen: This week, we have two interviews. On Wednesday, I speak with Corey Erdman, boxing commentator, about calling the recent fight at Madison Square Garden between Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. This sold-out fight was the first time two women headlined a boxing match at Madison Square Garden. And on Thursday, Jessica talks with Hanif Abdurraqib, a poet, essayist, cultural critic, and incredible thinker, about his love for basketball and the NBA playoffs.
Hanif Abdurraqib: What I grew to love most about basketball, which is this kind of like one-on-one dance between an offense player and a defensive player in a really small, contained space. It is why I still to this day kind of love guards. I love inventive dribbling. I love this idea of like basketball as an escape, as a seeking of small doorways. It’s why I like watching Steph Curry off the ball, you know? Because he's always kind of seeking that escape, that like little window, that sliver of space to escape through.
Shireen: Before we begin the burn pile, I would like to offer a content and trigger warning for sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and verbal abuse. Moving on to everyone's favorite segment, the burn pile. Brenda, what are you torching this week?
Brenda: I am torching CONCACAF, the confederation in North America of football. We know, since 2015, this is a cauldron of corruption. We've talked about them a lot. This is no surprise. We know that women referees were asked – is to put it lightly – coerced into sexual favors in order to get international assignments. We've known that, and, you know, I'm not even burning that because we're past the point where that's a new burn, you know? That’s ash by now, you know? Let’s hope we're like working on the phoenix rising. But I want to burn the actual administration of CONCACAF. I also want to implicate, and I'm really sorry to do so, Karina LeBlanc, who was privy to this information a year ago, that this specific person, who is a Salvadoran federation member, his name is Ronald Gutiérrez. He was until just recently FIFA’s director of development of referees for CONCACAF. And since the investigation of Haiti, they had verified information that he had been at the head of this, that he had over and over and over coerced women or passed them up if he was unable to coerce them.
And, after over a year, they finally dismissed him. That means he's had a year to continue to do this when you've had verified information. And I'm just so angry and disappointed in the entire organization. At the very least you would think, okay, yeah, this was whispered. And then when you had it official, when you had the information, you still did nothing. Shame on you, CONCACAF, for continuing to still do fucking nothing. Nothing!They’ve done nothing. There's no investigation into themselves. There's no intent to reform. And hats off for reporting on this to Josimar’s Romain Molina, who did a really good three-part series of pieces on sexual assault and harassment in global football. And it's just so infuriating. We've had this good reporting before, and still nothing was done. And I just…I don’t know. I'm just going to burn it. That's it. Burn it.
All: Burn.
Shireen: I'm going to go next. And also, I do really want to shut out Romain Molina and Ed Aarons, who also have done so much of the reporting. And my burn pile is in the same vein as Brenda’s, however, this takes us to Gabon and the abuse of young women's footballers there. And I really cannot stress enough how Molina and Aarons dig into this work and they report it when it largely remains unreported in much of football media. It's so important to understand and really amplify their work at the Guardian, and the guardian supporting them doing this kind of reportage. So, FIFA has an independent ethics committee, and it opened formal proceedings against Patrick Assoumou Eyi and Serge Mombo and two other coaches as part of its allegations of sexual abuse in Gabon, but also the abuse of under 17 players by these coaches. We’re talking emotional, we’re talking sexual. It is horrific, the way in which this has continued. And I think Brenda's point about impunity, how the process is so slow-moving that nothing happens for a really long time. And the fact that, truly, with the catalyst of the Afghan players getting abused in 2018 and that coming to light, how FIFA also felt like they had to start moving where previously they avoided this type of adjudication or these type of investigations. They really didn't.
And I mean, when we're going to call out people, let’s call them out also. They’re supposed to be this symbolic head of global football without actually advocating for players who are the most vulnerable, who need it. This is unacceptable. It's infuriating. So, if you go through the actual article, you'll see that these particular men have been involved with the federation in Gabon for years. These are positions that they don't give up. They're full of power, they're full of privilege and they come with money. And who's going to report them? Who do you report to? Also, it makes us reevaluate the way that systems of reporting are required by players, required by staff as well, because staff can be abused, most certainly. I just get upset about this, but also, people don't care about Black women in the Global South, generally. Are they going to care about them in the scheme of football? And that's why also this reporting is important, to highlight and chronicle that this happens and draw attention to it, because not only do we need to care about survivors of violence if they're white and in rich countries, we need to care about all survivors of sexualized violence in sport all over the world. And that's why I'm so disgusted that this happens. So while I want to burn all this shit to the ground and these abusive men that take advantage and that harm young footballers, but I'm grateful for the archiving and chronicling of these particular stories. So, burn.
All: Burn.
Jessica: Last week, The Athletic’s Chantel Jennings and Dana O'Neil published a piece about legendary basketballer Cynthia Cooper-Dyke, who was the coach of the Texas Southern women's basketball team for four seasons, retiring in March, 2022. The Athletic’s report is about Cooper-Dyke’s coaching tenure, which multiple players say was demeaning, demoralizing and abusive. They spoke to 25 people, including players and their family members and basketball staff members, most of whom saw the reported incidents – some of which I'm going to describe in this burn – firsthand. At the time of her retirement, Cooper-Dyke was under a Title IX investigation and had a no-contact order, as did two of her assistant coaches, with players. It prohibited “in-person contact, telephone calls, emails, texts, other forms of electronic communication, social media based messaging or postings, and third-party communications, including communications through proxies.” A no-contact order with her players.
According to The Athletic, players told the Title IX investigator the following: “When told that one of her players, who had a previously known mental health diagnosis, was depressed, Cooper-Dyke responded, ‘No, she will be all right. She just needs some dick, that's all.’” Later, she called that same player a “sorry-ass virgin.” Cooper-Dyke came up behind a player while she was doing squats and said, “Ooh, your hips are big. You got a fat ass. And I can tell you like to ride some dick.” Cooper-Dyke repeatedly shamed a player for her weight in front of the team, and that player was so despondent she stopped eating in front of her coach. The Athletic's investigation found a pattern of this behavior across Cooper-Dyke's coaching career. At UNC Wilmington, she often talked about her own or players’ sex lives. She has mimicked fellatio on a male assistant during practice. At USC, she named one of the team’s plays “hot sex.” She mocks people with special needs using the r-word. I can go on. She pressured players to play injured and was excessive in her punishments, to the point of making players vomit.
One of her former players, Thaddesia Southall, said, “This is a woman who demeaned us, who talked to us like we were not human. She made me hate basketball, and no one did anything to stop her.” There's so much more in the piece at The Athletic, I'm just spotlighting the very sad highlights here. Cooper-Dyke told The Athletic that all of these allegations are untrue, but also apologized. She has regret for “any words used during the course of a spirited game or practice that offended or hurt someone.” There has been a lot of reckoning around coaching, especially within women's sports over the last year or so. And that's good, because none of this is okay. We obviously need a bigger, more sustained effort to radically change coaching culture at large. But there is something particularly painful learning this about a legend in the game who went on to harm young players and turn them away from the sport of basketball. It mainly just makes me incredibly sad, just in so many ways. So I just want to burn it all this week. Burn.
All: Burn.
Shireen: Now, let's lift up some amazing people this week. Brenda?
Brenda: Yeah. Congratulations to Kevin Durant – one of my favorite Twitter follows [Shireen laughs] for his emotional reactions to people's assessment of his plays and his general fascinating opinions – has decided to become an NWSL. So, congratulations, Kevin Durant, and your new favorite sport. Gotham City FC, congratulations to you for having a new, fun owner.
Shireen: The North Carolina Courage won the NWSL Challenge Cup after beating the Washington Spirit 2-1 in the final.
Jessica: Three years ago, Steph Curry rebooted Howard University men's and women's golf programs. And then last week, Howard University alum Gregory Odom Jr. made his tour debut at the Wells Fargo Championship. The crowd cheered loudly as Odom Jr. walked up and set his ball down on the first tee.
Shireen: Can I get a drumroll, please?
[drumroll]
Our torchbearers of the week are two Australian athletes. First of all, to the Australian women's rugby team who won the final of the World Rugby Sevens Series. A late attacking raid by Lily Dick brought them to victory over New Zealand, 21-17. Absolutely amazing. The tournament was held in Canada, and was a resounding success. Second part of our torchbearers: congratulations to Sam Kerr, who took Chelsea FC to a Super League victory over the weekend, making them the champions of England. Sam Kerr, Aussie footballing superstar, also won the golden boot. Congratulations to all the fans and families down under. What a great week for Australian women's sport. Okay, let’s do the what's good. I mean, we deserve the what's good. Brennie Bren Bren, what’s good?
Brenda: Well, Bad Bunny on May 6th dropped his album Un Verano Sin Ti, or A Summer Without You, which is like the best thing that's ever happened in musical history. He became the most streamed artist in a single day, and it's the most streamed album in a single day, and all that, all of it is with justification. And I see music kind of like I do sports. Like, I really want him to fucking win everything. And so I'm like competitive, you know what I mean? But I'm so glad that everybody loves him. I'm like the opposite of people who criticize bandwagon people. I get more and more happy the more people love him, and it makes me so excited that I see, like, on every Twitter thing, people enjoying this album. It is sunny and happy, and he uses his platform to promote longtime Latin American artists like Bomba Estéreo. And I love it. I love to see him propping up all the other people in the Latin American music world. And I hope you all enjoy it. And I'll be sending you all the like playa vibes that come from that album, because it is gorgeous.
Shireen: I love that for you, Brenda. Also, belated Eid Mubarak. Eid was last week. It was a lot of fun. I love Eid just generally, also because it's my return to coffee in the morning, which sustains me emotionally. Mother's Day was yesterday. We're recording on Monday morning. And I'm a big proponent of Mother's Day. I like being feted, generally. And I like to remind my children that I had four unmedicated births and that they need to fete me, constantly. But what my kids did do, and I thought this was really wonderful, is that my children, as part of a conservation campaign, bought me a small parcel of land, 5x1 square feet, in Aberdeenshire, Scotland, and the land cannot be developed. But as per the laws of the Commonwealth under the reign of the queen, I can hereby now be referred to as Lady. So I am a lady, bitches. Lady Shireen Ahmed of Burn It All Down.
Jessica: Wow.
Shireen: Yeah.
Brenda: Slam dunk, Shireen's kids. Slam dunk.
Shireen: Yeah. So, it was pretty awesome. And the kids…I was delighted. I always buy myself preemptively a present, just in case the kids flop. And they didn’t. The last couple of years they’ve knocked it out of the park. I actually went to Sephora with my friend Winston and got myself an engraved perfume bottle because just in case they weren't going to get me anything, I just give them the receipts. I also collected $25 from each of them to pay for it. They're good about it. And I had Eid money. So I was like, just give me the money. It’s an understanding. But this particular present was amazing. Saif, my oldest, found it, and the others quickly came on board. It actually is a conservation campaign. It's wonderful. Dr. Courtney Szto is the only one who's at present objecting to calling me Lady. [Jessica laughs] And I do understand that I don't like imperialistic bullshit, but, like I said, I'm a lady, bitches! Jess?
Jessica: I want to apologize for the lawnmower in the background of my audio at this point. But I am very thankful for those guys showing up every week. So, last weekend, my son’s middle school archery team went to the national competition in Salt Lake City and he, my son, shot very well, his best shooting ever. The team placed second at nationals in the middle school division, and it was incredibly thrilling. Aaron coaches on the team, so he was a part of all the celebrations as well, and it was just really a delight. It was also very nice to go to Salt Lake, which doesn't seem like a real place when you like wake up in the morning and you look like you're in a Coors Light commercial or something, because you're just surrounded by white-capped mountains. So, just getting out of town was very nice.
I would be remiss not to say that my absolute favorite thing in the whole world right now is Formula 1: Drive to Survive on Netflix. I was going to watch it because people want to talk to me about it when they find out I'm a sports journalist. So I was like, I will watch one of these episodes and I will finally have an idea of whatever this is. And then I couldn't stop watching it. Aaron sat down, he got addicted. We are like almost through season two at this point. We watched the Miami Grand Prix on television this weekend. So, it feels unhealthy in some ways, but I'm absolutely in love with this show. And it's always fun to sort of get sucked in like that, to something brand new and highly dramatic with like the lowest stakes in the world. They drive cars fast. So, Drive to Survive.
Shireen: What we're watching this week…I forgot to add this to my what's good. So, I'm just going to say, I actually watched a Cirque du Soleil performance called Kurios, which was wonderful. They’re in Toronto. And that was really, really fun. And I tried to do a bridge in my living room, and it was not unsuccessful. Anyway, as far as what we're watching, the WNBA picked up last Friday, and it has been wonderful. It has been fun. And I think that's all we're watching, other than the Champs League, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, that we talked about today.
That's all for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And of course, thank you, thank you, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world to us. And if you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. We could not do this without you. Burn on, and not out.