Interview: Jamad Fiin, Basketball Player, on Empowering Muslim Girls to Hoop

Eid Mubarak! In this episode, Shireen Ahmed talks with Jamad Fiin, basketball player and social media sensation, currently playing her last season with Emmanuel College in Boston, Massachusetts while getting her Master's Degree in Business Administration. They discuss Jamad's influential and viral social media videos and the importance of visibility of Muslim dress in sport. They also talk about how she fell in love with basketball, her fashion ambassadorship with StockX and her organization Jamad Basketball Camps that puts on basketball workshops for girls throughout the United States.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Shireen: Hello, flamethrowers. Shireen here. Eid Mubarak! While the month of Ramadan is over. And I'm so excited to have an amazing guest with us today: Jamad Fiin. Jamad, marhaba! [laughter]

Jamad: Marhaba. How are you guys?

Shireen: Good! For those of you that don't know, Jamad Finn is a former college basketball player at Emmanuel College in Boston, Massachusetts. She's now pursuing a masters in business admin. A proud Muslim and first generation American with her parents from Somalia, Jamad is just getting started and using her social media platforms. She selflessly organizes tournaments to encourage young girls to continue the sports they love, no matter what the circumstances that stand in their way. She's the founder of Jamad Basketball Camps, a nonprofit organization helping to empower all girls through basketball and teaching them how to be better people on and off the court. You will know her and you have seen her breaking ankles in an abaya all over Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, everywhere. Jamad, we’re so happy to have you on Burn It All Down.

Jamad: Thank you so much, Shireen. I'm excited to be on. 

Shireen: So, I want you to tell me, first of all, the moment you fell in love with basketball. I know your brothers played, I know you were on the courts all the time, and you were very often the only girl there. But what was the moment you fell in love with basketball?

Jamad: I think it was definitely when I was in ninth grade. Like, I played basketball to play basketball for fun. But when I fell in love was I was in ninth grade and I was at AAU practice and it was just like the girls were way better than me because I was just starting and, like, they'd been playing basketball for a long time. And then we did a move in practice and I couldn't do that move and I felt embarrassed, and then I went home that day and then I practiced the move, like over and over again until I got it. And then I feel like that's what was like the turning point of me playing basketball, because then I was like, wow, like, I have to perfect every single thing that I learn.

Shireen: I've seen videos, and seeing you watch the mamba mentality videos over and over again. Is that how you liken your work ethic? Because your work ethic is ridiculous. 

Jamad: Yeah. So, I first used to watch him all the time, and then it started, like, after I started falling in love with the game and just playing it every day, and then I just needed something else to motivate me to go play it even more. And then I used to search up motivational videos, and then Kobe was like the first one that popped out. And video after video, I used to watch his. 

Shireen: So did you start off like in ball courts and parks and stuff like this? Because you played AAU, which is high level basketball. Where did you start off playing basketball?

Jamad: We have a community court in our Somali Muslim community here in Boston. And once that court opened up, we used to go there all the time. It’s like a ten second walk from the masjid. So it's like very close. So like, after Sunday school, we would always go upstairs to go play. And that started when I was like about 10, 11 years old. And then I used to just play for fun. Like, whenever my brothers went to the park, our dad would bring us and then I’d go with them, play with their friends. And most of their friends were boys. So like, I would play with the boys too. But it was okay because I was with my brothers as well. Yeah. That's like where it started, that park, Timothy Park in Roxbury was like my park. I love that park.

Shireen: So, were you practicing and sharpening your skills? Because your handles…You dribble low. So, were you practicing that? Was that like a move that you’d play defensively to keep it away from the guys? Like, because you dribble low!

Jamad: I think that started when I was in ninth grade too, because I also wanted to like perfect everything. So, after practice, I would go watch other drills I can do. And then I would practice those drills. I used to go like early mornings to the YMCA and really work on my handles.

Shireen: So, I know that you said that when you were playing and were playing more, your mom would get reports from like all the aunties in the community or other people in the community being like, your daughter's out there playing. And I know that your mom supported you, and she actually said in one particular interview that came out last year that basketball protected you and saved you in so many ways. And I love that, because that's what it does for so many young women. But what was that pressure like? Because I know that pressure. I've been called out. My mom was called out when I was seen wearing shorts at soccer practice. So, the community informants call up the parents. What’s that like? And how did you navigate that? Because that's not a great space to be in. It doesn't feel good.

Jamad: Yeah, so, my mom used to always get calls from like the ladies in the neighborhood. And it's funny because I was friends with their daughters, and like their daughters loved me playing basketball. Like, they would always encourage me to play basketball. But it was also like the environment we were in and like how we're first-generation and like these moms haven't seen anything like this before. For me to do something different than the other girls and like me not fitting in with them and just playing sports was something that they couldn't handle, I think. So like, they wanted to talk about it. Like, I was like the talk of the city, like the entire…Like, when I was younger. And at first, my mom, she didn't like that. She didn’t like her daughter's name in people's mouth and like the topic of the conversation. She didn't like all that attention. And then my dad was always on my side. Like, my dad was always the one taking me to practice. And like, whenever my mom said stop playing, my dad was always like right behind me, encouraging me to keep playing. And so I think my mom, when I was 15 or 16, that's when she was like, told these ladies to stop calling her, like, to back off. She started to notice the importance of playing sports at a young age. And so from then, my mom's been like my number one supporter.

Shireen: And it’s so great to hear that because it takes a lot of courage from your mom to be able to say, to stand up and create those boundaries and say, no, this is my kid. This is our family. This is what we're doing. And how that will encourage the next generation of girls to get out there. No, it's really interesting, because Somali culture is so rife with love of sports. And it's so interesting that they assume that girls don't love it too, because, you know, you love basketball. So, have you been loving with Celtics hard since you were a kid? Like, what was your favorite team growing up?

Jamad: So, the Celtics were always my favorite team. I started first watching, like, when KG and like Rondo and Paul Pierce were all here. I've never went to a game. Like, I've always wanted to go to games. But now that I got older, like, now I can finally go to the games and like, we have a new generation of cool players, so it's nice. 

Shireen: Who's your favorite OG Celtic? It's gotta be Bill Russell, but after Bill Russell.

Jamad: Rondo was always my favorite.

Shireen: Oh yeah?

Jamad: I used to do everything he did. I used to watch all his interviews. Yeah. He was like my role model growing up.

Shireen: Rajon Rondo. Do you shoot like him?

Jamad. Oh, not at all.

Shireen: [laughs] So, let's talk a little bit about…You have had some great successes, mashallah, and collaborations and stuff like this. So, your recent one is with StockX. Tell me a little bit about how that happened, because like, your fit is different than any other fits on the court. Like, you play in abaya sometimes. You play with hijab on. You know, we know the people that fought the fights to let that happen. Like, you know, Bilqis Abdul-Qaadir has been on the show before. But tell me a little bit about what that's like to bring it to mainstream, those fits, to bring mainstream. That's not something we've seen before.

Jamad: Yeah. So, I was a big StockX fan. They basically resell shoes that are no longer on sale at Foot Locker or Nike or anything. So like, a lot of people don't get the chance to buy the shoes in stores. StockX is where they go to buy the shoes. I used to buy all my basketball shoes from there. I used to get like email updates from them, like when shoes came out. And then I received an email, but it wasn't an email update. It was like an actual email from them. And then I was like shook and surprised. And then I was very excited to start working with them. And I knew their initiative to help, like, bring more diversity to their market and just be different. And so I was excited to start working with them. And like, playing in abaya is like the peak of showing how Muslim girls can play basketball. Like, they can do sports and also rock the abaya as well. But like, outside of the abaya, like, I also love showing the fashion style that we can also do. Like, even though I do play basketball, I do wear abaya and stuff. Like, the style, the modern day style, just to show like Muslim girls can do that as well. It's like, it's very diverse within the clothes that we wear. And making sure everything's modest and comfortable for me to wear. That's what I liked about that shoot. 

Shireen: I love that you said that you can combine culture and religion with style, and that you can be a hooper and be stylish. So are you seeing that…You’re seeing, you know, hoopers in the mainstream for fashion and getting different types of fashion. Like, we've seen the WNBA draft, and those fits are incredible. How do you think that works for Muslim girls too? Because I mean, for a long time, our clothes were not accepted. There's places in the world our clothes are not allowed. There are sports in which our hijabs are not welcome. How important do you think this is then? 

Jamad: I feel like it's very important because like, once you walk outside with a hijab and your modest clothing, like, everybody, all eyes are on you basically. Like, you're the source of attention. And to make sure that like we rock it correctly, and like, every Muslim girl that I've seen is so beautiful, mashallah. Like, they rock everything so perfectly. And just to see that, like, the styles getting more advanced and like everybody's adjusting to the style. Like, there's new dresses, new modest clothing, stores, and people who are selling more modest clothing. It's beautiful to see. 

Shireen: And even within the sports realm, like, there's a lot more…Are we going to see like a modest sports line from Jamad Fiin come out? And if so, can I have the auntie discount? 

Jamad: Yes, of course. [laughter] Yeah. I haven't really thought about that, but I don't know. I feel like when I was growing up, my thing was to wear like what the other girls were wearing so I could fit in a little bit. Like, a t-shirt and leggings for my shorts. But yeah, I’ll probably make some t-shirts or like some leggings, something like that. 

Shireen: So when you played at Emmanuel, did you wear leggings and stuff underneath your shorts? 

Jamad: Yeah, I wear leggings underneath my shorts. And then I wore like short sleeved shirts, like compression shirts.

Shireen: And for your hijab, did you have like a turban kind of back style? Is that what you did? 

Jamad: Yeah, it was a turban style, but it's the same exact way that I've been wearing clothes playing basketball since I first started. So like, my style at 14 years old is the same style that I stayed with.

Shireen: And so when you would go out, like, the videos of you – which I love – of you on the court, like in a public court somewhere, you know, in an abaya, and then because people will not expect you to have the skill that you have. Are those staged, or was that like for real?

Jamad: I feel like it started off for fun. Like, the first ever video, it was just like my friend was recording and I didn't know she was recording. And then we were just playing with like the boys from the community, and she sent me it after, and then it was just in my camera roll for like a year. [Shireen laughs] And then my cousin posted it on Twitter, and that was definitely not staged. But then I noticed a year…I think it took me a year to notice, oh, wow, people really liked this. So that's when me and my friend made video after video after video. And then like sometimes I wouldn’t even want to make the video. Like, she would force me to get up and like come make a video. And then it was just so hard, because like sometimes the abaya gets caught in the ball [Shireen laughs] and it's like, the amount of time that it could take me to do the move, it literally takes like a minute or two if I had shorts or like sweatpants on, but with the abaya it took hours and hours and I'm just like…It was hard, but it was worth it. 

Shireen: And for those that don't know, an abaya is like a long robe kind of dress. It sometimes opens in the front or sometimes has a zipper, just so those can sort of picture it. But I love that so much, because what I really do appreciate about it is that you're basically also sending a message that what you want to wear is possible and to play at the same time. Like, there's just not one way that hoopers can look. You can look differently, and whether you wear a turbine or like a wraparound hijab, or like the pull on hijabs or whatever, it's all possible. And I think those are conversations that I'm certainly invested in, but that are really important to have in sports, because for a really long time…And I wanted to talk to you about this. Did you know that for a long time FIBA didn't allow hijab in pro sports? Did you actually know this when you were young and playing?

Jamad: I think I was a senior in high school, and that's when I heard the news about it and everything, and I think Bilqis was like the first person that I heard that was fighting the ban and eventually like they got rid of it. And then, like, it was funny because a year later, her first time playing overseas, she played with us on the Somali national team.

Shireen: In Dubai, in the tournament, right?

Jamad: In Dubai. Yeah. 

Shireen: And I love that you claimed her, that Somalia was like, come play with us. Like, that's awesome. Have you seen an increase in your community of girls involved in sports? 

Jamad: Yes. I think there has been a very huge increase. I feel like all the girls now, like, they play basketball. They're not like embarrassed to play basketball. They also play for like their teams, like for school more. And like, I'm trying to encourage them to also try to play in college. So a step for them is just playing in high school. And like, that's like the biggest step that I'm proud that they've taken, because a lot of girls, like, they're scared to play in high school or whatever. But just to see so many girls now telling me, like, they've tried out and now they play for the high school. Like, a lot of girls in my Boston community now, they also play for their high school.

Shireen: So, why would they be scared to try out to play in high school? 

Jamad: I feel like it's because…I mean, they tell me stories all the time, but basically they don't feel they're good enough. And like, other girls, they're obviously better because they've grown up playing basketball. Like, their parents have spent so much money for them to play basketball. So, for our perspective, like, our parents are not gonna pay like $900, $800 for like an AAU team, or like, they're not going to pay a trainer a hundred dollars an hour for us to get better, you know? So like, I'm trying to get them to have that mentality, to just go out and then practice yourself. Most of them, it's hard for them to like really be motivated and play by themselves and things like that. So, that's why the camps are so they can have friends who look like them and then they could work out together. 

Shireen: And so the camp idea was really…It came from what you saw a need for the community to try to have, and embolden the skill and, you know, really help. How often do you hold your camps, and where? Like, I know you were up in Toronto. I was sad that I missed that visit. But where do you hold them? And like, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do this? How do you organize them? Do you have a team of people? How does it work? 

Jamad: Yes. So, I know the cities that have the most Muslim, like, Somali population. And so I try to reach out to people like from those types of cities, and like it helps with social media, because then I could just post, like who's here? And then everybody replies. But mostly I have friends who live in the cities. Like, next month, like after Ramadan, mashallah, were going to a few cities, like for the whole month of May. I think we're going to San Diego, Michigan and Ohio.

Shireen: No Minnesota? I thought the most Somalis were in Minnesota!

Jamad: Minnesota is like the kickoff. So we're going right after Eid. It’s like an everyday trip now. [Shireen laughs] So we're like kicking it off in Minnesota. And we're also doing something for the boys, because the boys have been so helpful and they've been so supportive of the girls. Like, every time we're in Minnesota, just showing them love. And we’re finally giving them a chance for them to have their own like little tournament thing. But obviously the girls are like priority and get the main event.

Shireen: So yeah, the boys are always there, but I was gonna say that I really love that you're acknowledging the fact that this work doesn't happen without help from the community, without the support of the men and the boys. And have you seen also…Because you said your dad was supportive, you played with your brothers. Have you seen an uptick in the way…Because we know that even at young ages, sometimes brothers can obstruct their sisters, right? I was lucky, my brother never did that. My sons support my daughter fully. But it's not always like that. Not every family is the same. Have you seen like a shift in brothers supporting their sisters more? 

Jamad: Yeah, I think the brothers are more supportive, because like, for me, I'm older than the girls now. And like, I'm cool with their brothers. Like, I've known their brothers on social media for like a long time. And so their sisters are always younger than them. So like, they're always like, my sister loves you. Like, I'm going to bring her to the camp. I'm going to bring her here. And I feel like that shows how supportive they are, because they know me personally and their sisters are now grown and old enough to come to the camps, and they're there every time and then they pick them up and then they drop them off. Like, sometimes they even stay with them at the camp, and like, that's the best part.

Shireen: So it becomes like a family thing. And how old do you have to be to come to the Jamad Basketball Camps?

Jamad: We start from like the age of 7 or 8, and then up until like 21.

Shireen: Wow. And how many volunteers do you have with you, or people on your team?

Jamad: There's about eight of us. I think there's six girls in Minnesota, and then I have my two friends here in Boston. 

Shireen: And do you use like community areas, or masjid gyms, or like, what do you use for the camp?

Jamad: It depends on like the community. Like in Dallas, there was a huge Pakistani and like Arab community there. And so they had a gym inside their masjid. So that was the most epic trip that we took. Just go to Jummah prayer and then right to this gym. [Shireen laughs] No, but like, that was amazing. So like, it depends. Like, Dallas, definitely, we did it at their masjid. But everywhere else is just like the community gyms.

Shireen: So when you were young and you're like changing the trajectory of young basketball players, did you think this is what you were going to do when you were a kid, when you were like starting out, when you're in grade nine and doing…Was this what you thought you'd be doing? Or what did you think you would be doing when you were a kid? What did you want to grow up to be?

Jamad: I actually wanted to grow up to be a PA. And I did get my undergrad degree in biology, and like on track to become a PA. But then it's funny because a week before I graduated last year, I was like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore.

Shireen: A physician's assistant?

Jamad: Yeah.

Shireen: Okay.

Jamad: So I was like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore. And then like, hamdullah, I made so much, I had to have my…Because like, my senior year of basketball got taken away because of COVID, right? It's funny how Allah works, because like now he gave me like my season back and then I could also go back to school. So I had to go back to school actually, if I wanted to play. So like, that's when I got my masters of business administration. So that's something like that I can have with me, like at all times. And like, something that…And I want to be like a business owner, instead of like the biology undergrad.

Shireen: How do you manage all this? Because like, you're out here with the videos and the collaborations, and the plane. And the one thing I love about watching your videos, and I will say this, is you look like you're having so much fun.

Jamad: No, it is. It is. I feel like when I'm there and with the ball and like I'm such a perfectionist, and that it's like so fun to do. It's just like, my friend Sumaya, she always encourages me. Like, when we used to do videos every day, I would be the one to be like, oh, I'm so tired, you know? And then she would just be like, yo, let's go, let's go. Let's do it. Like, having the right people around me really helped too.

Shireen: Do you do your own makeup?

Jamad: Ah, yes. I love doing my own makeup. 

Shireen: Nice. [laughs] I'm like, I think you're beautiful all the time, but like, I'm just like to get up, mashallah, and to do that and to do this…And one of the questions I have, and I want to make it, talking about collaborations and dreaming and all this, what would be your dream collaboration to do? 

Jamad: Definitely LeBron, I'm a huge LeBron fan. It'll happen this summer, inshallah. 

Shireen: Inshallah. Yeah, absolutely. I want you to say it, because I want it to go out and manifest in the universe. So I want that to happen for you. 

Jamad: I manifest it like every day.

Shireen: [laughs] And what's your favorite pair of kicks?

Jamad: The cement 3s. They're like Jordan 3s. They're like black and gray and red and white. But I think those were my first pair that I know, like, back in like 2012, where we like used to camp outside for shoes and like wait all night. So like, that was like my first pair that I actually did that for, with my brothers. 

Shireen: Do you still have them?

Jamad: I have the restock of them. So like, they came out again like four years ago? Yeah. I have the one from four years ago.

Shireen: And do you collect them or do you actually wear them?

Jamad: No. No, I wear them. I wear them. Not really a collector, but hopefully now with StockX, I can be, yeah. [laughter]

Shireen: Send her some stuff, StockX! Yeah. Absolutely. Have you thought about designing your own pair of kicks?

Jamad: That'd be cool, but no, I haven’t.

Shireen: I'm a size 10, in case you're wondering. And if that happens, you can send me a pair. 

Jamad: Yes, of course. [laughs] You’ll be the first one.

Shireen: I don't play basketball, but I'll wear them. Fun question time. So, we talked about your favorite food. So, your mother makes a salmon that slaps, with the seasoning.

Jamad: Yeah, that's definitely my favorite that she cooks.

Shireen: [laughs] And do you cook?

Jamad: No, I don’t. I feel like my mom is just like… [Shireen laughs] She has to cook. So like, sometimes I go in the kitchen, like, try to copy what she does. But she does the majority of the cooking. And plus my brothers would probably be like, I'm not eating this food if my mom's not cooking it. [laughter] They’re very spoiled too.

Shireen: Yeah. So, what's next for you, Jamad? You said you wanted to be a business owner and do what you're doing, all these things, and you're an entrepreneur for sure. You're a community organizer. You set up these kids. What's next for you? 

Jamad: Just making sure that we go to as many cities as possible for the camps, and then inshallah opening up like my own space where I can control like the gym time and the gym space. And that's something I've always wanted, because I just hate like asking people for a gym space and it's like so hard to get gym time for girls now. So it's just like somewhere where the girls are comfortable. They can get time, whenever they want. So, something like that. That's definitely up there in my priorities and my dreams. And yeah, just going to as many cities and even countries as possible, and just opening up that door for more girls to play basketball and to play sports in general.

Shireen: If you could play pickup with one person, anyone in the world, who would you call?

Jamad: Okay. The first question that popped in my mind…I just saw a TikTok where it was like Imam Suleiman, Omar Suleiman.

Shireen: Oh, no way! That’s hilarious. 

Jamad: Yeah. I probably would not play basketball with him. [laughs] 

Shireen: Does he hoop, even?

Jamad: No, yeah, I saw a TikTok. He does. Yeah. 

Shireen: He does? Okay, cool. 

Jamad: Definitely LeBron, I think. Everything LeBron.

Shireen: [laughs] Everything LeBron.

Jamad: LeBron and Drake. That'd be epic. 

Shireen: You know, I live in Toronto, it's all Drake up in here. So he follows you on social media, apparently, right?

Jamad: Yeah, he does.

Shireen: Awesome. But so, tell our listeners where they can find you and find your work and find information about Jamad Basketball Camps?

Jamad: You can go to my Instagram. For the basketball camps it’s @jamadbasketballcamps on Instagram. And then my Instagram is @_jamaaad. For more information, just to stay updated with like the camps that we have coming up this summer, inshallah. And then, yeah, you can go to jamadfiin.com too if you want any background, like, any more info about me. 

Shireen: I love that. And thank you so much for being here. You know, it's been a pleasure to have you. I've been wanting to have you on for a long time, so I'm glad, hamdullah, and I wish you all the best, inshallah, with everything you do. And lastly, what's your favorite warmup song? 

Jamad: Anything Rod Wave.

Shireen: [laughs] Okay. 

Jamad: It’s actually kind of a slow, but I love Rod Wave.

Shireen: That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here, and you're welcome back anytime. 

Jamad: Inshallah. Thank you so much, Shireen. Thank you for having me.

Shireen: Hey, flamethrowers, Shireen here. Before I end this episode, I wanted to play you a special part of my conversation with Jamad. Before she left, we got into it about the NBA playoffs. Now, we recorded this at the start of the playoffs in April, when the Toronto Raptors were still in the tournament. Currently, the Boston Celtics are playing the Milwaukee Bucks, and the Toronto Raptors lost out to the Philadelphia 76ers. Enjoy!

Jamad: Are you guys in the post…Are you even in the postseason?

Shireen: Girl, we made the playoffs! [Jamad laughs] Don’t be like that. Look at you! Yes, we are in the playoffs. Do I need to remind you that we won the championship in 2019? Do I need to remind you? 

Jamad: Yeah, but then again… [laughs] Then again, you guys have no one from that team left. No, I’ll give it to you guys – Scottie Barnes, I'm obsessed with him. He’s amazing.

Shireen: Okay, thank you! Yeah, can I remind you, Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby? Those guys are all still there from our championship year. 

Jamad: Okay, but Scottie, Scottie! Scottie Barnes–

Shireen: Scottie, I mean, you said it. Can we please put some respect on his name? Scottie Barnes! Yeah. NBA rookie of the year.

Jamad: He is? Did they grant him that title yet? 

Shireen: Well, the east one. He's won from east. They haven't denounced the overall. I mean, I've granted him that title.

Jamad: I mean, he has to get it. Like, who do you guys play? You guys play the 76ers?

Shireen: Oh yeah. Embiid. We’re going to be up against Embiid. 

Jamad: Oh my god. Okay.

Shireen: I know. It's going to be tough for Scottie to guard Embiid. [Jamad laughs] I know, but like, I mean, I don't know what to say about that.

Jamad: I don’t even know if the 76ers are good.

Shireen: Well, Embiid is good. I know that. I'm scared of him. But it's all good. But I do love that you're giving adequate love to the Raptors, because I love the Raptors. They're my sons. I love them very much. So, it's all good. But anyways, we'd love to have you up here. Definitely.

Jamad: Yeah, but definitely like 5 out of the 10 games I’ve went to, it's all Raptors. I feel like we played the Raptors so much this year.

Shireen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The Celtics played the Raptors a lot, but it's all good. I mean, I don't genuinely love Boston teams, but that's okay. You can come up and wear a Raptors jersey. It's all good. We'll get you a Raptors jersey. We’re good.

Jamad: Oh, I would never. No.

Shireen: What!

Jamad: I’d probably come in with like…No, I can't even come in with whatever. 

Shireen: No, you come in with Celtics…I know your shenanigans. It's all good. I know how you are. 

Jamad: [laughs] But if they're not playing the Celtics, that'd be stupid.

Shireen: [laughs] No, I love you no matter what, it's all good. It's all good. You’re welcome at any game. Except the Celtics jersey. But it’s all good. [laughter] Okay, my friend. This was beautiful. We’ll talk to you soon, inshallah.

Jamad: Inshallah. Bye, guys!

Shireen: That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is a part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find the link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And thank you to our patrons. Your support really means the world. If you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, visit patreon.com/burnitalldown. And as Brenda always say, burn on and not out.