Interview: Julie Kliegman, Chief Copy Editor at Sports Illustrated, on Trans Athletes in the NCAA

In this episode, Lindsay Gibbs speaks with Julie Kliegman, Chief Copy Editor at Sports Illustrated, about trans athletes in the NCAA. They discuss University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas and the NCAA's new policies limiting the ability of transgender athletes to compete.

This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.

Transcript

Lindsay: Hello, hello, hello everyone. Welcome to Burn It All Down. Lindsay Gibbs here, and for our interview this week I'm so excited to have Julie Kliegman, the copy chief at Sports Illustrated. Julie, thank you so much. We finally have you on Burn It All Down! 

Julie: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.

Lindsay: It feels way overdue. So, today we want to talk about Lia Thomas, and also where the NCAA stands right now in terms of regulations for transgender athletes. This is a topic that's been on our burn pile a lot lately. But there's been so much going on that, I mean, for my benefit as much as anyone, I thought it would be good to kind of break things down, simply talk through the timeline, because it's really important policy stuff that's happening right now. And there are a lot of people who don't want us to pay attention, so it's important to pay attention. Julie, first of all, just like start with the basics. Who is Lia Thomas? And when did she start making headlines? I think a lot of people have heard the name in passing a lot now, but like, who is she? And what are the main things that people need to know about Lia? 

Julie: Yeah. So, Lia is a swimmer for Penn on the women's team. She is transgender, and previously she had swam on the men's team. She started making headlines…I feel like it was a couple of months ago now, but you know, earlier in the swim world, for sure, because she's been setting some program records at the University of Pennsylvania and, you know, if you're a transphobe, you don't necessarily like that. 

Lindsay: Yes. When we say making headlines, we mean not necessarily swimming headlines. A lot of outlets that have never once covered swimming, [laughs] you know, usually NCAA sports of any kind, let alone swimming, are suddenly experts and very interested in the sport. So, a couple of things to clarify first. First of all, when she was swimming, she was in, is in compliance with the NCAA guidelines which, last fall, when she started winning these races last fall/winter, what were those guidelines?

Julie: Yeah, so, the guidelines for the NCAA, it's a little tricky, because they really apply it only to championship events. Technically, schools can have their own guidelines that sometimes align with those NCAA guidelines, sometimes don’t, for the regular season. But the NCAA guidelines, until very recently, were that testosterone had to be below 10 nanomoles per liter for a woman athlete. 

Lindsay: I believe they had to be, to compete in the women's category, on that testosterone for a year. Is that correct? Like, receiving the treatments for a year?

Julie: Yes. The 10 nanomoles per liter thing, there’s that, like–

Lindsay: I actually think, and I was about to say, so, I think the 10 nanomoles…So, up until literally last November, there have been two kind of sets of guidelines. And this is I think important for people to understand. Two guidelines have kind of been the barometers for trans inclusion for sports, kind of on an elite level. And even though it's not mandatory that everyone follow them, a lot of sports and federations and schools defaulted to those, right? I think on the NCAA side, it was the one year.

Julie: Yes.

Lindsay: And then on the IOC side, which is the International Olympic Committee, it was maybe longer than that. And the threshold was 10 nanomoles per liter of testosterone. So, all of this has happened at once, and it's all kind of converged. So, I think the IOC policy came in the early 2000s. It's been updated a little bit since then, but not much. NCAA policy since 2010. And have trans athletes been taking over women's sports in this time? If people are wondering. [laughs]

Julie: Absolutely not. I mean, you see trans athletes here and there, but no one is taking over women's sports – and I would argue, what would be the problem if they were? Like, you know, if there's good competition, that's what we all want to see, right?

Lindsay: I 100% agree. I just do think it's important to note that there really doesn't seem to be a problem. But right around the time that Lia was making all these headlines, I'm not saying these two things are related, but they happened in a similar timeline. The IOC decided that it was going to get rid of its guidelines and go allow each individual sport to set its own participation guidelines for transgender athletes. That's a whole nother podcast about whether or not… [laughs] I know even a lot of stakeholders have different opinions on what the IOC did there. But it's important because in January the NCAA updated its guidelines. So, can you let people know what the NCAA did in January? 

Julie: Yes. So, kind of conveniently I think for the NCAA, they were able to, when they updated their policy, kind of refer back to the IOC policy and say we're kind of following the IOC's footsteps, we're going to let individual sporting federations handle this on a case-by-case basis for each sport, basically. So, technically…And I can't say whether this is going to happen to anyone, but if you're a two sport athlete in the NCAA, you could be considered a different gender in each of your sports.

Lindsay: [laughs] It’s just a nightmare. I know you talked to a lot of stakeholders. Does it seem like…From what I've talked to the individual sports kind of governing bodies in schools, are they thrilled about this? 

Julie: No. I mean, there's a lack of clarity around, for example, I'm sure we'll get into the USA Swimming policy, but who's going to pay to test those testosterone levels? And, you know, there's just a lot of confusion that I'm hearing about.

Lindsay: Yeah, it seems like there wasn't a demand for this, and just unclear how any of this is going to happen. But towards the end of January, I believe, the NCAA announced this policy. But then under that, Lia Thomas would still have been able to compete, because USA Swimming's policy, she still was capable. But then you alluded to the next thing that happened. So, take us through how USA Swimming then responded. 

Julie: So, USA Swimming responded with a policy update of their own that would require transgender female competitors to have a concentration of testosterone lower than 5 nanomoles per liter – which is, you know, a very low threshold – for a period of 36 months straight.

Lindsay: Where does it seem like those numbers came from? And those restrictions came from? I have heard from people that feel like it was targeted very targeted towards Lia. Why would they feel that way?

Julie: Well, they might feel that way because Lia, as she told the podcast SwimSwam months ago, she has been on testosterone suppressing treatment for about 33 months at this point. So, that might be one reason they feel it's a little targeted toward her. And it's also just the timing, right? Like, this comes down a couple of months before she is set to compete in the championships. And so, yeah, the advocates I've talked to do you feel like it's very targeted to Lia – both the NCAA change and the USA Swimming change, I should say.

Lindsay: Yeah. One of the comparisons I've heard is track and field, with it trying to stop Caster Semenya, when it made…Of course intersex and transgender are not the same things, but kind of being policed by the same transphobes and just, you know, gender policing powers that be, and how the IAAF’s rules were pretty much just for Caster’s events and for no other events. And that's kind of similar to now it seems like what USA Swimming has done with these regulations here, of the three-year determinant. Because as far as I've been able to tell, is there any particular, maybe you know that I don’t, a particular study or science that points towards why this threshold would exist?

Julie: No, there's actually a lack of science here in general, and that's one of the huge problems when it comes to debating things like trans inclusion in sports, is if you're looking to hitch it to a scientific argument, you're not going to find a great one. Joanna Harper has done some research into this. She's a trans female athlete herself. And, you know, what she's found is we don't have enough data yet. And we don't have enough data yet on elite athletes; we certainly don't have enough data on youth athletes either. So, these numbers don't really stand up to a whole lot of scrutiny. And we actually have…Frankie de la Cretaz is writing a piece for Sports Illustrated about how the IOC’s testosterone guidelines have sort of trickled down to other levels of sport. So, this is something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

Lindsay: I cannot wait to read that piece, because yeah, it's fascinating. One thing though we do know is that, for whatever it's worth, we do know that Lia's times as a swimmer since she's been competing on the women's team are slower, significantly slower, than her times when she was competing on the men's team. So, we do know that the regimen that she is on is slowing her time. So that's true, that’s happening. Sometimes I like to do these podcasts just so you all can like bust myths along with us, right? When you have your myth-busting facts when you like confront the transphobes in public.

So, if anyone says that A) Lia Thomas just came off the couch and started doing this, that's not true. Lia has worked hard at swimming her entire life, just like the women she's competing against. She's always trained to be a swimmer and a collegiate swimmer. And B) her times are slower since she has started the treatment. But now, this is where I get really confused. So that happened, and it seemed like Lia would not be able to compete in the NCAA championships. But now, just at the end of last week, we got a ruling saying otherwise. Can you walk me through kind of like that level of bureaucracy?

Julie: Yeah. So, it's definitely a little confusing – more than a little confusing, actually. Even before the ruling that you're alluding to, there was a report in the Washington Post that said that the NCAA was going to phase in the USA Swimming regulations in a few different steps and that the 36 and 5 numbers would not be in play for the winter championships. However, I'm not totally clear on where that reporting was sourced from. I'm not saying it's inaccurate, I just, you know, I haven't seen that reported elsewhere or confirmed. And then yeah, you get this ruling late last week from an NCAA subcommittee, basically, saying that the new rules will not take effect in the winter championships. Does this mean that Lia is clear? I mean, well, probably, but it's not something that the whole NCAA, at least as I understand it, has taken up yet. It's only a recommendation for now. Though, if you read the press release, it was very confusingly worded. 

Lindsay: Literally every part of this is confusingly worded. [laughs] As someone who's writing about this for Power Plays, trying to sort through things, yeah. Every single thing, and it's all these subcommittees and bureaucracy, and nobody really wants to kind of take action. But where it stands now, it seems that Lia Thomas is going to be able to compete in the championships in March, but we'll keep posted and we will update you on Burn It All Down if anything changes. I want to kind of take a wider lens though here a little bit, because, you know, Lia Thomas is a news peg, and I don't want to…I hate putting this much attention on her, but I also don't want the only people talking about her to be the bigots, right? Who are trying to do the headlines and spread misinformation. So I think it's important to be educated on the facts of what's going on there.

But obviously this is way bigger than just with Lia. When the NCAA policy came down, so, when they decided to “follow the IOC’s change” to make it sport by sport, you reported on Sports Illustrated about somebody who was on a diversity committee who decided to step down from that committee. Can you tell me what happened there? 

Julie: Yeah. So, Rhea Debussy was a volunteer facilitator on Division III's LGBTQ One program, the only program of its kind in the NCAA. And they stepped down because, you know, they just weren't happy with this policy and didn't feel like the NCAA has been respecting trans athletes and they were, I believe, the only openly trans facilitator out of 50-something in this group. So, you know, I thought it was important to highlight because there aren't that many LGBTQ focused groups in the NCAA. There’s the Division III committee and out of that group came the LGBTQ One program. And that's really all there is in terms of groups that are solely focused on LGBTQ inclusion.

Lindsay: Yeah. I was actually stunned to have recently found that out. I was talking with the Division III program and I was like, well, who are your sibling programs in the other divisions? And to find out that there are diversity committees on the other divisions, but none specific to LGBTQ inclusion, which is, I don't know, very depressing. And one of the quotes from the letter that you reported on which Athlete Ally released in full was Debussy had said, “I'm deeply troubled by what appears to be a devolving level of active, effective, committed, and equitable support for gender diverse student athletes within the NCAA’s leadership.” And the word devolving really stuck with me because, first of all, we've just discussed they've had this policy in place since 2010.

And, you know, we don't give the NCAA credit for much, because they do not deserve it, ever. But around 2015, 2016, when the “bathroom bills” as they were dubbed started kind of spreading across the nation, which were, to make a complicated subject short, essentially preventing trans people from using the bathrooms based on their gender identity. And these were popping up in conservative spaces. The NCAA actually played kind of a significant role in stopping the movement. Can you refresh people's memory on what seems like a literal lifetime ago? [laughs] 

Julie: Yeah. So, as the bathroom bills were spreading, the only state they successfully passed in was North Carolina. Though I should say, in this current legislative session, some states are bringing back bathroom bills. But yeah, so, the bathroom bill passed in North Carolina.

Lindsay: Cool, cool. [laughs]

Julie: Yeah. Very cool, right? So, a lot of organizations started pulling events like concerts and stuff like that out of North Carolina. I believe the NBA pulled…Was it the All Star game?

Lindsay: It was.

Julie: Yeah. And the NCAA was kind of a little later to the fray than most of these groups, but they did pull out championship events from North Carolina.

Lindsay: Which…I live in North Carolina, and that's big, because it was the men's basketball, which is god here in North Carolina. I mean, it's hard to explain to anyone. It's like Georgia with college football, like, how big these men's basketball games are in North Carolina. It was like a DEFCON event when these championships got pulled.

Julie: Yeah. So, I assume where you're going with this is that as anti-trans sports bills started getting introduced and passed, first in Idaho in 2020, in many additional states last year, and they're moving through states' legislatures this year already. The NCAA did not act to remove championship events in those states. They even scheduled some new ones, I think. And this is despite athletes banding together and protesting this move. Hundreds were signing an Athlete Ally letter and, you know, coordinating other efforts to keep championship events out of these states. But the NCAA did not take the same action as it did against the bathroom bills.

Lindsay: You know, it just seems like it was almost foreshadowing now its policy change, right? Like, as Debussy kind of said, it's this devolving level of support, because ultimately HB2 was not perfectly overturned, but it was overturned. That was the bathroom bill in North Carolina. Like, they changed that policy because they wanted to keep championships. And one of the things that…I’m particularly concerned about all of it, of course. But do you feel that this framing that anti trans activists are using to “protect women's sports,” that they are enacting these trans bans because they care about women's sports. Do you feel like that's an effective framework that is influencing this discussion or, you know, the action that people take on these bills?

Julie: I feel like they have had some success with that strategy, because Title IX and women's equality appeals to a lot of people. But as I reported recently, it's kind of easy to see through this logic of “we're protecting women's sports,” because some of these states that are passing the anti-trans sports bans are also banning trans boys and men from sports. You know, I called up legislators and asked them why, and they don't have good answers. 

Lindsay: Yeah, that feature…I was gonna ask you about that next. That feature is so good, because it does just kind of get right to the heart of how silly this can be at times. [laughs] And how the people who are actually making these rules aren't really engaged with the issue. They just kind of are looking at it from a very, very surface level. Where do you see things headed next? I don't know. You can take that as broadly or as limited as you want – maybe just for the NCAA or with these bills in general. I know that's a big question. But you know, as we look forward, what should we be on the lookout for?

Julie: Yeah, well, I think in the NCAA, assuming Lia does get to compete, I think there's probably going to be backlash with other sporting federations where there might be trans athletes in colleges. So, I think we gotta keep an eye out for different sporting federations updating their own policies, like we saw with USA Swimming. And then on the state level, I think we really have to watch out for these anti-trans sports bills moving through legislatures, because they have been passing and they have been more successful than bathroom bills. So I think we have to look out for that. In addition, of course, pay attention to the anti-trans healthcare bills moving through.

Lindsay: Right. They're all tied together. And it's pretty terrifying. I was recently talking with someone who works in the system and they said the other side, the anti-trans side: very organized, a lot of money on that side, and a lot of power on that side. Whereas, I don't know, I'm sure you've heard the same thing, but it seems like…I mean, there's Athlete Ally of course that’s doing great work, but a lot of LGBTQ groups that aren't sports specific have not been as active on the issue of these sports bans. Why do you think that is? 

Julie: You know, I'm kind of at a loss. I think part of it is, yeah, just the opposition does seem more organized. I've seen HRC here and there protest anti-trans laws. But I think with sports it's a little bit tricky because everyone feels like it's kind of…I mean, not to put words in anybody's mouth specifically, but sports are seen as like lowbrow or frivolous or unimportant. But you know, that couldn't be further from the truth, because as Chris Mosier, you know, a trans athlete and activist himself, told me, these bans are about erasing trans people from everyday life. And so they need to be taken really seriously. And advocacy groups that aren't solely focused on trans people…I mean, that's another issue I think, is that sometimes those groups represent gay, lesbian, bisexual people much more than they represent the T. So, you know, I think that needs to change. 

Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. And I also just think there's a lot of misunderstanding of the issue, and I do fear that phase, the “protect women's sports” act. And, you know, it's why I want to urge all of our listeners to really fight against this, because I think there's few things that piss me off as much as using women's sports as an excuse to discriminate against others, as an excuse to further marginalize groups. And there's just literally no reason that should be happening. Women's sports are better than ever, and trans inclusion has been around for decades at this point and trans people have always existed. So, there's just no point. Any final thoughts, Julie? 

Julie: Yeah, I guess just to build off what you were saying, when I was talking to Chase Strangio, a lawyer at the ACLU fighting these cases like the anti-trans sports bans, he was kind of pointing out the same thing that like, you know, if people were really serious about protecting women's sports or furthering women's sports, what are people doing about the abusive coaching situations? Like the ones we've seen not only at the NWSL but also on the youth level. I mean, what are they doing to get more girls access to sports at a young age? You know, there are concrete things we could be doing, and it's bizarre that trans athletes have become the focus. 

Lindsay: It's disgusting. And it was funny, I was laughing a lot – laughing so you don't cry kind of laughing, you know – with some people Athlete Ally, because it's like, the NCAA literally just released this huge unredacted report on how poor they are with gender equity. They have a step by step playbook! And I did a big series on it in Power Plays. There’s like hundreds of pages of things they need to do to treat women's sports better and to give more access to women's sports, and not a single page in there has anything to do with stopping trans athletes. And yet that's the thing they're focusing on right now. Like, you can't make this shit up. You can't make this shit up. Well, Julie, where can people follow your work? 

Julie: Well, at Sports Illustrated, of course. And I'm on Twitter @jmkliegman.

Lindsay: Thank you so, so much for joining us, Julie, we really appreciate it. And we'll have you back, hopefully under happier circumstances. One day, we're just going to have interviews about all the good news that's happening. [laughs]

Julie: That sounds great. Thank you so much, Lindsay. 

Lindsay: That's it for this episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. Follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. For show links and transcripts, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You'll also find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. And thanks to our patrons – your support literally makes us possible. If you want to become a sustaining donor to our show, patreon.com/burnitalldown. Burn on, not out.